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News & Features Discussion  » [Review] Guild Wars 2: Raising the Bar

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508 posts found
  mmaize

Novice Member

Joined: 7/23/09
Posts: 275

10/04/12 5:01:16 PM#181
Originally posted by Gonodar
While I liked some things they did in the game, like open groups, no competition for node harvests, events, it just wasn't enough. I quit out of boredom of doing the same things over and over. I fail to see what all the excitement is about, apart from the normal "oh it's new and SHINY!!". The same MMO mechanics can be found in nearly every other MMO. ArenaNet just tweaked things a bit here and there. I found nothing at all truly innovative in the game. I wanted to like it, but I just couldn't.

Right so then using your own case, you don't play MMOs at all because they are all the same and boring right?

  Izik

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/13/04
Posts: 110

10/04/12 5:03:50 PM#182

Originally posted by ShakyMo

Izik:

This game isn't designed for you. I like gw2, but I can't bloody stand EQ, and I'm not that keen on wow.


 


Well considering both of those games created this genre, I think it's fair to compare them to GW2.


  Zetsuei

Novice Member

Joined: 8/21/03
Posts: 253

The one and only power

10/04/12 5:05:10 PM#183

Like others have said before me, the game does not deserve this score. I mean, if you're playing the game for the first time and still leveling and don't really understand the mechanics of the game, it might deserve a 9. But once you hit 80 and you understand all the systems in place that limit or hinder any kind of fun or advancement, you finally begin to realize how basic and lacking the game is.


Leveling in GW2: 9


Playing at max level: 7.5


The game is truly lacking and the fact Anet isn't fixing things we consider issues shows where their priorties are. They want you to farm your ass off for anything. Dungeon armor sets are a prime example of this. 


  Vhaln

Novice Member

Joined: 7/07/05
Posts: 3167

10/04/12 5:08:15 PM#184
Originally posted by Kuppa
Originally posted by modus

9 for Longevity when it clearly states there there isn't much to do post 80 is laughable.  How many recent games has this killed or doomed to fail?

PvP, is were most of the longetivity is at right now. And it is very much extending the life of the game for the many pvpers that exist.

 

What percentage of the GW2 playerbase would you say that is?  Seems like getting to 80 is a very different game than what they expect players to want to do once they get there.

When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.

  ThaneUlfgar

Novice Member

Joined: 4/14/11
Posts: 288

10/04/12 5:13:11 PM#185
While I do feel the score is a bit high, if any game released recently is deserving of a score above 9, I'd say it's Guild Wars 2.
  evolver1972

Novice Member

Joined: 3/18/11
Posts: 1126

What is "real"? How do you define "real"?

10/04/12 5:17:44 PM#186
Originally posted by Yakamomoto

This is the ultimate rape of the word "innovation" by the way.


INNOVATION 10 ?


Removing quest hubs, so we get the same Kill X and Click X egg quests automatically?


No number for Kill X but a X percent bar filling up?


THAT is innovation 10 in the eyes of MMORPG? Really? This "10" score is an insult and ridicules all further reviews.


Well just so you know, YOU are the ones holding up the industry with reviews like that, it's a shame really, over a decade of the same cookie cutter quests and they rate that thing INNOVATION 10.


Instead of WoWclones we will get a bunch of slightly adapted GW2 clones for "innovation".


Oh and go look that word up in a dictionary before you EVER use it again.









 




 

 

From Dictionary.com:

in·no·va·tion

   [in-uh-vey-shuhn] Show IPA

noun

1.  something new or different introduced: numerous innovations in the high-school curriculum.

2.  the act of innovating;  introduction of new things or methods.

 

Even though GW2 still has the "kill whatever" "quests", here's where Hearts are different, and thus, innovative:  1. You don't have to talk to the NPC to get the "quest".  2. You don't have to kill anything to finish the quest, there are multiple options you can choose from and multiple ways to finish that quest.  3. You don't have to talk to the NPC to get your rewards, you recieve them as you fill up the heart.

 

Those are 3 things that are different from traditional quests.  And that is just one aspect of the game.  Other innovations (differences) in GW2 include, but are not limited to:  Vistas, random chests for exploring, jumping puzzles, how WvWvW works (the basic concept comes from DAoC but that's about the only similarities from what I understand), the UI, the Sylvari, underwater combat, underwater skills differing from land-based skills, weapon based skills, etc. etc.

 

All of these things by themselves are innovative in some way.  It might be they are brand new to MMOs, or they are presented differently.  Either way, it's all innovative.  And that's why the game deserves a 10 for innovation.  It's as new to the genre at least as much as WoW was when it came out.  Sure it borrows (heavily sometimes) from what has come before, but the overall experience is much different (different = innovation, see the definition above) than earlier games.

 

 

You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  mmaize

Novice Member

Joined: 7/23/09
Posts: 275

10/04/12 5:20:08 PM#187
I'm still waiting for the one game mention that people don't sit around and complain once they reach max level too fast.  I mean every single damn time there's a new game it's the 'oh this is going to be so awesome' fanboism and then once they reach max level it's all hatorade from there.  Give me one game that you can actually tell me you're satisfied with..just one.
  evolver1972

Novice Member

Joined: 3/18/11
Posts: 1126

What is "real"? How do you define "real"?

10/04/12 5:23:47 PM#188
Originally posted by Zetsuei

Like others have said before me, the game does not deserve this score. I mean, if you're playing the game for the first time and still leveling and don't really understand the mechanics of the game, it might deserve a 9. But once you hit 80 and you understand all the systems in place that limit or hinder any kind of fun or advancement, you finally begin to realize how basic and lacking the game is.


Leveling in GW2: 9


Playing at max level: 7.5


The game is truly lacking and the fact Anet isn't fixing things we consider issues shows where their priorties are. They want you to farm your ass off for anything. Dungeon armor sets are a prime example of this. 

How is that any different from GW1?  Or any other MMO for that matter?  One difference is that you don't HAVE to have the dungeon armor sets to be competitive.  How is that a bad thing?

 

I'm enjoying my experience of the GW2 world while I'm leveling.  You know what will probably happen when I cap?  I'll enjoy my experience of the GW2 world.  I'll go to areas I haven't been to yet.  I'll level up my craft.  I'll play in and around Orr for the sheer enjoyment of it.  Or WvWvW.  Or whatever I want.  And I don't have to run dungeons if I don't want to.

 

Who knows, maybe I'll change my mind when I hit level 80 (53 right now), but I doubt it.  I've never been one to enjoy "endgame" of most games anyway.  I enjoy the world and story the most.

You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  mmaize

Novice Member

Joined: 7/23/09
Posts: 275

10/04/12 5:24:15 PM#189
Originally posted by evolver1972
Originally posted by Yakamomoto

This is the ultimate rape of the word "innovation" by the way.


INNOVATION 10 ?


Removing quest hubs, so we get the same Kill X and Click X egg quests automatically?


No number for Kill X but a X percent bar filling up?


THAT is innovation 10 in the eyes of MMORPG? Really? This "10" score is an insult and ridicules all further reviews.


Well just so you know, YOU are the ones holding up the industry with reviews like that, it's a shame really, over a decade of the same cookie cutter quests and they rate that thing INNOVATION 10.


Instead of WoWclones we will get a bunch of slightly adapted GW2 clones for "innovation".


Oh and go look that word up in a dictionary before you EVER use it again.









 




 

 

From Dictionary.com:

in·no·va·tion

   [in-uh-vey-shuhn] Show IPA

noun

1.  something new or different introduced: numerous innovations in the high-school curriculum.

2.  the act of innovating;  introduction of new things or methods.

 

Even though GW2 still has the "kill whatever" "quests", here's where Hearts are different, and thus, innovative:  1. You don't have to talk to the NPC to get the "quest".  2. You don't have to kill anything to finish the quest, there are multiple options you can choose from and multiple ways to finish that quest.  3. You don't have to talk to the NPC to get your rewards, you recieve them as you fill up the heart.

 

Those are 3 things that are different from traditional quests.  And that is just one aspect of the game.  Other innovations (differences) in GW2 include, but are not limited to:  Vistas, random chests for exploring, jumping puzzles, how WvWvW works (the basic concept comes from DAoC but that's about the only similarities from what I understand), the UI, the Sylvari, underwater combat, underwater skills differing from land-based skills, weapon based skills, etc. etc.

 

All of these things by themselves are innovative in some way.  It might be they are brand new to MMOs, or they are presented differently.  Either way, it's all innovative.  And that's why the game deserves a 10 for innovation.  It's as new to the genre at least as much as WoW was when it came out.  Sure it borrows (heavily sometimes) from what has come before, but the overall experience is much different (different = innovation, see the definition above) than earlier games.

 

 

Hit the nail on the head, and that's why I like it as much as I do.  Everything that's hated upon here is because at the end of the day for the people complaining it's like every other MMO and even though there are innovative things about GW2 they don't care because they are expecting something completely different from the norm in the form of some massive overhaul to the system.  In my mind anything done differently from the same old same old is a good thing and I'm willing to take the steps forward even if they are baby steps as opposed to throwing in the towel, complaining that it still isn't good enough, and then going back to play the very same old thing they were complaining about right here and to add insult to injury the old game is EXACTLY the thing they are complaining about here in the first place with none of the innovations even if thought of as small ones that are found in GW2...people never cease to amaze me.

  Eir_S

Novice Member

Joined: 8/07/11
Posts: 4707

GW2 socialist.

10/04/12 5:30:43 PM#190
Originally posted by Izik

Originally posted by ShakyMo

Izik:

This game isn't designed for you. I like gw2, but I can't bloody stand EQ, and I'm not that keen on wow.


 

Well considering both of those games created this genre, I think it's fair to compare them to GW2.

How can something that wasn't released until 2004 be credited with creating the genre?  It (WoW) didn't create anything, it popularized the genre.  This kind of quote is as bad as saying "WoW was the first MMO".

  Randayn

Elite Member

Joined: 7/16/12
Posts: 868

10/04/12 5:39:55 PM#191
Originally posted by Wolvards
Originally posted by Randayn
Originally posted by abeltensor

 


with a broken dungeon system and no distinguishable class system, a hidden quest system and absolutely no end game this game doesnt deserve any of the praise its getting.  It basically is the game that will break the genre of the MMORPG and turn serious gamers away.  In-fact, i think MMOs died when WoW came out and every mmo after that decided to make their content all quest based.  


Back in the days of real MMOs where you invested 1000s of hours into your character and went on quests that were for unique items most of which sucked in retrospect but where fun to have because you could say i got that by competing this mammoth quest that involved talking to No NPCs.  Instead these games no supplement those unique items with achievements which don’t really matter either way.  GW2 isn’t innovative, Its ambitious but that about it.   The idea of breaking the Holy Trinity is quite a good one, but the way it was executed was horrible.  The idea of level scaling was a good one, but in the game it was horrible.  Etc etc.  There so much in this game that sounds good on paper but really turns out to be a bad decision.  


For any one who was into the old school MMOs, the "Hard-core" crowd this review is an insult and a horrifying look into what is supposedly considered to be innovative in this genera. 

THIS TIMES 1,000,000

It is a complete insult.  Now we know that people prefer generic and stupid over thought provoking and complex.  Wonderful....another beautiful creation destroyed by the "Pop Culture"...

Then why don't one of you two, oh wise grandmasters of MMORPGs, give us an example so profoundly amazing, that everyone that played old-school MMOs would say, "YES! THAT is INNOVATION!".

Because i'm pretty sure opinions vary regardless of what time period you started playing.

Innovation has 1 definition and can be easily identified.  There is nothing subjective about my statement.  This game does not bring with it "innovation"....If I go and change the curtain on my window from ruffled to straight and short, does that mean I get a score of 10 for innovation??  Well, that's exactly what GW2 did, as well as follow in the footsteps of WOW by dumbing down the genre even more than it already was dumbed down.

  Randayn

Elite Member

Joined: 7/16/12
Posts: 868

10/04/12 5:41:39 PM#192
Originally posted by Eir_S
Originally posted by Izik

Originally posted by ShakyMo

Izik:

This game isn't designed for you. I like gw2, but I can't bloody stand EQ, and I'm not that keen on wow.


 

Well considering both of those games created this genre, I think it's fair to compare them to GW2.

How can something that wasn't released until 2004 be credited with creating the genre?  It (WoW) didn't create anything, it popularized the genre.  This kind of quote is as bad as saying "WoW was the first MMO".

I agree....the game that really deserves a 10 for innovation is Anarchy Online.  It was the first to introduce many of the mechanics now over-used and abused by all themeparks....for example....instanced dungeons...

  mmaize

Novice Member

Joined: 7/23/09
Posts: 275

10/04/12 5:45:53 PM#193
Originally posted by Randayn
Originally posted by Wolvards
Originally posted by Randayn
Originally posted by abeltensor

 


with a broken dungeon system and no distinguishable class system, a hidden quest system and absolutely no end game this game doesnt deserve any of the praise its getting.  It basically is the game that will break the genre of the MMORPG and turn serious gamers away.  In-fact, i think MMOs died when WoW came out and every mmo after that decided to make their content all quest based.  


Back in the days of real MMOs where you invested 1000s of hours into your character and went on quests that were for unique items most of which sucked in retrospect but where fun to have because you could say i got that by competing this mammoth quest that involved talking to No NPCs.  Instead these games no supplement those unique items with achievements which don’t really matter either way.  GW2 isn’t innovative, Its ambitious but that about it.   The idea of breaking the Holy Trinity is quite a good one, but the way it was executed was horrible.  The idea of level scaling was a good one, but in the game it was horrible.  Etc etc.  There so much in this game that sounds good on paper but really turns out to be a bad decision.  


For any one who was into the old school MMOs, the "Hard-core" crowd this review is an insult and a horrifying look into what is supposedly considered to be innovative in this genera. 

THIS TIMES 1,000,000

It is a complete insult.  Now we know that people prefer generic and stupid over thought provoking and complex.  Wonderful....another beautiful creation destroyed by the "Pop Culture"...

Then why don't one of you two, oh wise grandmasters of MMORPGs, give us an example so profoundly amazing, that everyone that played old-school MMOs would say, "YES! THAT is INNOVATION!".

Because i'm pretty sure opinions vary regardless of what time period you started playing.

Innovation has 1 definition and can be easily identified.  There is nothing subjective about my statement.  This game does not bring with it "innovation"....If I go and change the curtain on my window from ruffled to straight and short, does that mean I get a score of 10 for innovation??  Well, that's exactly what GW2 did, as well as follow in the footsteps of WOW by dumbing down the genre even more than it already was dumbed down.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a while..and that's saying something on here.  Completely changing the framework of how a character approaches quests in terms of I am the master of my domain I explore and as I explore I see that things are going on in the area I am at to which I have the choice of joining or not vs. The old Go here and collect 10 of these which by the way nearly EVERY MMO out there prior has done, is in fact, innovation.  You can sit there and debate the level of innovation all you want to but it's innovation just the same.  I didn't like Tera but their approach to combat in an MMO setting was innovative.

What you don't get to do is decide that something that was newly introduced or introduced in a way that hadn't been done before or was a fresh new look on an old idea doesn't fit into the definition of innovative simply because it doesn't meet your standard.

  Yakamomoto

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/24/12
Posts: 385

10/04/12 5:46:33 PM#194

Originally posted by Randayn


Innovation has 1 definition and can be easily identified.  There is nothing subjective about my statement.  This game does not bring with it "innovation"....If I go and change the curtain on my window from ruffled to straight and short, does that mean I get a score of 10 for innovation??  Well, that's exactly what GW2 did, as well as follow in the footsteps of WOW by dumbing down the genre even more than it already was dumbed down.




 


Don´t worry, just take another MMO site off the credibility list, like I just did.


Innovation 10, woah this is a real kicker.


 


Thanks to this review, it´s good to know there will never be something else or better to expect from the MMO genre.


 


If GW2 is really the absolute "10" peak of innovation I guess it´s time to quit the genre alltogether and say goodbye to egg collecting, cow feeding and zergs. At the end I never liked Facebook games either.


  Eir_S

Novice Member

Joined: 8/07/11
Posts: 4707

GW2 socialist.

10/04/12 5:50:30 PM#195
Originally posted by Yakamomoto

Thanks to this review, it´s good to know there will never be something else or better to expect from the MMO genre.

 


If GW2 is really the absolute "10" peak of innovation I guess it´s time to quit the genre alltogether and say goodbye to egg collecting, cow feeding and zergs. At the end I never liked Facebook games either.

Dramatic much?  No companies are going to look at one site's review and say "Welp, time to stop putting effort into our systems".  It doesn't work that way, and companies who do that will probably not succeed.  Geez, calm down.  I don't agree with the 10 either, but I think you're reading too much into it.  No one knows the future...

Then again, a lot of people did copy WoW because it was popular.  If GW2 doesn't succeed, maybe we'll see more WoW clones huh?  I guess that would make you happier.

  Amphib_Ian

Novice Member

Joined: 1/24/11
Posts: 171

Fools fear nothing yet claim to know everything. Bravery is knowing everything yet fearing nothing.

10/04/12 5:51:49 PM#196

What's the word I'm looking for here....


...ah: Spurious. As in having a similar appearance but a different structure. The score of 9.3 is inflatted. Innovation, though genuine, is not a 10. Perhaps an 8.7 would be more fitting. GW2 is not an example of MMO perfected. It ccould be improved upon the instant it was launched. And while patches and hotfixes will continue to strive towards that goal, they (it goes without saying) will never achieve perfection. Everyone from player to developer to forum troll can see room for improvement. A score of 9.3 clearly implies the game is 93% of the way towards absolute MMO perfection in every conceivable way, shape, and form. This is wholly untrue. It will not be worthy of such a score until at least the first 2 or 3 expansions. And by then, something new on the horizon, having seen all the things GW2 did right as well as what could have been done better or even, perhaps, bringing with it new innovation inspired by GW2 or even something unrelated entirely to GW2 will loom before us. And we shall then turn to GW2 (having become dated and tired) which will still gleen with its then deserved 93% of perfection and witness as it watches fawningly towards those who, when the game was new and undeserving of such a score, sworth oaths of alliegance for all the rest of their lives yet now flock to this new city shining brightly upon the hill.


  Eir_S

Novice Member

Joined: 8/07/11
Posts: 4707

GW2 socialist.

10/04/12 5:54:21 PM#197
Originally posted by Randayn
Originally posted by Eir_S
Originally posted by Izik

Originally posted by ShakyMo

Izik:

This game isn't designed for you. I like gw2, but I can't bloody stand EQ, and I'm not that keen on wow.


 

Well considering both of those games created this genre, I think it's fair to compare them to GW2.

How can something that wasn't released until 2004 be credited with creating the genre?  It (WoW) didn't create anything, it popularized the genre.  This kind of quote is as bad as saying "WoW was the first MMO".

I agree....the game that really deserves a 10 for innovation is Anarchy Online.  It was the first to introduce many of the mechanics now over-used and abused by all themeparks....for example....instanced dungeons...

It makes me wish I'd played AO, but I wasn't into MMOs at the time really.  Hey, it's still going I think and maybe it'd run on this POS pc I'm on.  Anyway, I think the problem game reviewers potentially see in reasoning like yours is that AO was a huge innovator, so if it got a 10, that'd mean every game in between then and now would have had to innovate further and further, which would mean MMOs would get a much lower score these days because there's not much room left to innovate the standard systems.  I dunno..

  evolver1972

Novice Member

Joined: 3/18/11
Posts: 1126

What is "real"? How do you define "real"?

10/04/12 6:01:03 PM#198
Originally posted by Amphib_Ian

What's the word I'm looking for here....


...ah: Spurious. As in having a similar appearance but a different structure. The score of 9.3 is inflatted. Innovation, though genuine, is not a 10. Perhaps an 8.7 would be more fitting. GW2 is not an example of MMO perfected. It ccould be improved upon the instant it was launched. And while patches and hotfixes will continue to strive towards that goal, they (it goes without saying) will never achieve perfection. Everyone from player to developer to forum troll can see room for improvement. A score of 9.3 clearly implies the game is 93% of the way towards absolute MMO perfection in every conceivable way, shape, and form. This is wholly untrue. It will not be worthy of such a score until at least the first 2 or 3 expansions. And by then, something new on the horizon, having seen all the things GW2 did right as well as what could have been done better or even, perhaps, bringing with it new innovation inspired by GW2 or even something unrelated entirely to GW2 will loom before us. And we shall then turn to GW2 (having become dated and tired) which will still gleen with its then deserved 93% of perfection and witness as it watches fawningly towards those who, when the game was new and undeserving of such a score, sworth oaths of alliegance for all the rest of their lives yet now flock to this new city shining brightly upon the hill.

It's 93% of the way toward my personal vision of a perfect MMO, at least at this point in my playtime.  While that may change over time, that's where it stands for me right now.

 

I look at these scores as ways to compare MMOs to each other, not necessarily comparing to some obscure vision of what a perfect MMO would be.  Also, the scoring methods being used are based on that same method being used on other games.  So, if WoW scored a 9.0 (I don't know what it is, I'm just using an example), and Bill thinks GW2 is that much better than WoW, then he'll give it a score higher than 9.0.  So, he's not thinking of "this game is 93% of the way toward MMO perfection", he's saying "this is a top notch game that IMO beats every MMO with less than a 9.3 score".

You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

10/04/12 6:03:06 PM#199
closing in at the 200 hours mark and still haven't reached 80.. just so much to do and see.. I still hardly scratched PVP at all.. still best themepark since wow IMHO... nice write-up Bill but sure you could of expected the responses that followed though:)

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  evolver1972

Novice Member

Joined: 3/18/11
Posts: 1126

What is "real"? How do you define "real"?

10/04/12 6:06:32 PM#200
Originally posted by Yakamomoto

Originally posted by Randayn


Innovation has 1 definition and can be easily identified.  There is nothing subjective about my statement.  This game does not bring with it "innovation"....If I go and change the curtain on my window from ruffled to straight and short, does that mean I get a score of 10 for innovation??  Well, that's exactly what GW2 did, as well as follow in the footsteps of WOW by dumbing down the genre even more than it already was dumbed down.



 

Don´t worry, just take another MMO site off the credibility list, like I just did.


Innovation 10, woah this is a real kicker.


 


Thanks to this review, it´s good to know there will never be something else or better to expect from the MMO genre.


 


If GW2 is really the absolute "10" peak of innovation I guess it´s time to quit the genre alltogether and say goodbye to egg collecting, cow feeding and zergs. At the end I never liked Facebook games either.

By giving it a 10 for innovation he's not saying that's all the innovation any game is ever going to have from here on out.  He's saying the differences this particular game has over current games is way better than pretty much anything he has seen to this point.  That doesn't  mean a game won't come along in the future and be just as innovative as GW2 in a different way.

 

Besides, his overall score was 9.3.  That leaves room for improvement, I'd say.

 

But, if disagreeing with someone over how they rate a game makes you want to quit playing MMOs, I'll be glad I won't run into you in an MMO in the future.

You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

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