Originally posted by strangewizard

Since we are discussing this, would it be possible to create such a MMORPG with no user interface? Like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ihp5FHz6ABI

I'm curious, very curious.

 

EDIT: Aside from a chat menu, and possibly menus like backpacks that open up to deal with economy, but a very minimalistic or no-user interface type of system?

I don't think it has been done before in the context of MMORPGs.

Most MMORPGs have information overflowing onto the screen.

Why leave the chat window? VOIP

It is interesting to think that as technology evolves people might want to eliminate UIs in games to add realism. Yet as techonolgy evolves we are looking at ways to incoporate UIs and HUDs into real life through glasses and other technology.

* MMORPG combat tends to be more tactical than twitch based.
* Third Person View is expected.
* Third Person View allows the player to see their character and the gear that the character is wearing. Gear is an important component of the MMORPG experience (generally) and the appearance of the gear is important too.

That's all I can think of right now.

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

Originally posted by strangewizard

Since we are discussing this, would it be possible to create such a MMORPG with no user interface? Like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ihp5FHz6ABI

I'm curious, very curious.

 

EDIT: Aside from a chat menu, and possibly menus like backpacks that open up to deal with economy, but a very minimalistic or no-user interface type of system?

I don't think it has been done before in the context of MMORPGs.

Most MMORPGs have information overflowing onto the screen.

Why leave the chat window? VOIP

 

It is interesting to think that as technology evolves people might want to eliminate UIs in games to add realism. Yet as techonolgy evolves we are looking at ways to incoporate UIs and HUDs into real life through glasses and other technology.

UIs are useful. A good UI supports gameplay. Similarly a HUD improves usability. There is no particular need to get rid of them in games - excepth for those who want extreme realism (a niche). If you didn't have your ammo, health and whatnot onscreen you would need to check that from a menu somewhere, which is very inconvenient.

Does no one know the first 3D MMO, Everquest, is first person.

Vanguard also has a first person setting iirc.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

Originally posted by strangewizard

Since we are discussing this, would it be possible to create such a MMORPG with no user interface? Like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ihp5FHz6ABI

I'm curious, very curious.

 

EDIT: Aside from a chat menu, and possibly menus like backpacks that open up to deal with economy, but a very minimalistic or no-user interface type of system?

I don't think it has been done before in the context of MMORPGs.

Most MMORPGs have information overflowing onto the screen.

Why leave the chat window? VOIP

 

It is interesting to think that as technology evolves people might want to eliminate UIs in games to add realism. Yet as techonolgy evolves we are looking at ways to incoporate UIs and HUDs into real life through glasses and other technology.

UIs are useful. A good UI supports gameplay. Similarly a HUD improves usability. There is no particular need to get rid of them in games - excepth for those who want extreme realism (a niche). If you didn't have your ammo, health and whatnot onscreen you would need to check that from a menu somewhere, which is very inconvenient.

Now I think you just hunt me down in the forums to argue things I'm not saying.

I don't think the OP was saying UIs aren't useful. He was in fact arguing for a realistic approach to a game, which oddly enough is what you just argued as a reason people would get rid of the UI. In my quote I even say "to add realism".

This whole thread is essentially a brainstorming exercise for the OP who is discussing different approaches to interacting with an MMO, starting with a FP camera and now his discussion has gone into a far more realistic UI approach (as in none at all).

Personally I would love a shooter that had no UI. No overhead map, no blips of you and the enemy, no ammo count, no magically recycling of ammo to create new full clips when you pull out a half empty one.  I'm all for some different approaches to games instead of the "Hey this is what the other companies do".

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Does no one know the first 3D MMO, Everquest, is first person.

Vanguard also has a first person setting iirc.

I think the original point of this thread was a forced first person only interface. Yes, I think almost all of us know that first person is an option you can toggle off an on in many 3D MMOs.

I start playing games from Wolfstein 3D

Then i go to Doom and Doom 2

Then i played the 1st Star Wars - Jedi Knight with 3rd person

After that i never played 1st person games

First person view pretty much requires head phone use with simulated surround sound.

THAT is immersion - and the only way to do 1st person correct IMO without feeling like you lost one of your most important senses.

But yeah, I'll agree that 1st person perspective works and could work well for shooter MMO but melee combat is so hit/miss it would require you to give options for 3rd person - in which case everyone would use 3rd view.

I really enjoyed the FP melee combat in Skyrim, but MMO PvP and large scale PvE combat is far too hectic to make that kind of combat perspective work.

But the dress-up fans would still hate it even if FPS - which is why you see it "working" for the most part in a game like Planetside 2 as you are a uniformed soldier so there is a LOT more comformity in appearance.

Originally posted by strangewizard

Most MMORPGs are designed in third person or a tactical birds eye view. What about a first person MMORPG? Personally, I never understood why they are not done in first person. First person games are the most immersive, and MMORPGs are the most immersive genre, so naturally, a first-person MMORPG would be very immersive, indeed.

What would you think of a MMORPG designed this way? It would show your character's weapons like a first person game, and likely also have real-time combat like an FPS, however, it would still be about leveling up, exploring, doing quests, etc, like an RPG

Hate it but then again I hate isometric (top down view) as well.  I could handle it in doses such as tactical ranged (as in DayZ or Darkfall) but any MMO I play msut be predominatly 3rd person.

Originally posted by Hell_Hammer

People would complain that they actually have to pay attention and show some skill other than button mashing, and the 1st person view could very well lead to some twitch based combat that could drive away a large chunk of an audience.

 

I personally wouldn't mind.

The only problem that I'd have is that I really like to see my char and how he awesome he looks in that new suit of armor.

With 1st person, you'd spent most of the time staring at your gloves and weapons and not much else of your char.

I agree here.

I think it could work, but you'd have to have a way you could see your character at some point so you could make sure you looked good!

It would take some getting used to, though, as your view of things around you, and especially behind you, would be very limited.

I never got the First Person v Third person thing.

Can't we just have both?  Press a button and camera view angles are altered?  It can't be that hard can it...?  There can be nothing you need to sacrifice for this, I'm sure.

Originally posted by futnatus

I never got the First Person v Third person thing.

Can't we just have both?  Press a button and camera view angles are altered?  It can't be that hard can it...?  There can be nothing you need to sacrifice for this, I'm sure.

I agree that we should be able to have both.  Unfortunately many MMOs don't offer that as an option.  Some are close as totally zoomed in is just in front of your character, but that makes for wierd gameplay.  At least let me see my hands!

What many people don't recognise is that players will ALWAYS take the path of least resistance, in terms of efficiency. First person is certainly more immersive, but if you offer a third person view which provides a better overview of what's going on, players will flock to it even if it makes the game less immersive. Players are always subconsciously thinking in terms of efficiency. It's important to remember that when you say "can't we just offer both first and third person views?".

Applying the above, it's important to focus on one viewpoint and make sure that it complements the game. No one viewpoint is always the 'best', it depends completely on the focus of the game. The reason you don't see many first person MMORPGs is because it can make combat (especially PvP; because people are always running around you) feel tunnel-visionish, awkward, and difficult to balance. Everquest was initially first person and I think that was one of the contributing factors to its heavily addictive gameplay. In an explorative, quest-focused virtual world with little to no focus on PvP, first person seems more fitting. For more engaging, balanced, and skillful combat in both PvE and PvP (the kind that you see in WoW), third person is probably better. First person is simply more niche and fits fewer games, you'll see it crop up now and again though.

Originally posted by Torrent41

What many people don't recognise is that players will ALWAYS take the path of least resistance, in terms of efficiency. First person is certainly more immersive, but if you offer a third person view which provides a better overview of what's going on, players will flock to it even if it makes the game less immersive. Players are always subconsciously thinking in terms of efficiency. It's important to remember that when you say "can't we just offer both first and third person views?".

Applying the above, it's important to focus on one viewpoint and make sure that it complements the game. No one viewpoint is always the 'best', it depends completely on the focus of the game. The reason you don't see many first person MMORPGs is because it can make combat (especially PvP; because people are always running around you) feel tunnel-visionish, awkward, and difficult to balance. Everquest was initially first person and I think that was one of the contributing factors to its heavily addictive gameplay. In an explorative, quest-focused virtual world with little to no focus on PvP, first person seems more fitting. For more engaging, balanced, and skillful combat in both PvE and PvP (the kind that you see in WoW), third person is probably better. First person is simply more niche and fits fewer games, you'll see it crop up now and again though.

I find that odd as most, if not all of my best PvP experiences have been with FPS (coming from a FPS background, not RPG). Coming from FPS to third person, I have found combat to become easier. As people have said you have a giant tactical advantage than someone who is in FPS mode.

I prefer FPS, I'm biased as I was brought up on FPS games. I do enjoy third person though as I can relax alot more when playing.

I would welcome a first person MMORPG with open arms. There was just something about the first person view that was better for the virtual world feeling than what 3rd person can offer. Something about actually being face to face with the players you were partying with and having a first person view in the world made you feel a part of it. I play and enjoy a few of the 3rd person MMOs and other games that have come out, but they just seem to fall short a bit.

Still holding out hope for EQN since from every report I've heard from them they want to get back to the old school roots that MMOs were built on originally.

I agree 100% that a first person view can be more immersive and should be an option in an MMORPG.  Exclusively? ehhh, no because there are times that a third person view is nice to have and a lot of people like third person.  I will say that the first person view should be a realistic first person view that bobs and sways like real life.  Maybe that would be an option too for those with motion sickness.

It's hard for me personally because other than a better view of the field, third person also allows you to appreciate the gear you've attained and to be honest there's a small part of me that is vain like that.  As I'm going on nine years of MMO gaming though if done right I'd like to really try the first person perspective.  I may try it on EQ2 tonight especially since the NPCs talk to you mouths all a flappin'.