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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » First person MMORPGS, what do you think of the concept?

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82 posts found
  strangewizard

Novice Member

Joined: 9/16/12
Posts: 42

 
OP  10/03/12 10:42:21 AM#1

Most MMORPGs are designed in third person or a tactical birds eye view. What about a first person MMORPG? Personally, I never understood why they are not done in first person. First person games are the most immersive, and MMORPGs are the most immersive genre, so naturally, a first-person MMORPG would be very immersive, indeed.

What would you think of a MMORPG designed this way? It would show your character's weapons like a first person game, and likely also have real-time combat like an FPS, however, it would still be about leveling up, exploring, doing quests, etc, like an RPG

  Kenaoshi

Novice Member

Joined: 1/21/09
Posts: 1016

10/03/12 10:47:18 AM#2

hmm, not against, since i like Elder Scrolls play style, but combat and character customization DOES suck in first person, which is nto the eye candy for mmos.

Unless you have Half-Life like puzzles all around i say no.

now: GW2 (10 80s).
Dark Souls 2.
future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord.
"Bro, do your even fractal?"
Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.

  kaiser3282

Tipster

Joined: 5/21/08
Posts: 2690

10/03/12 10:48:21 AM#3

I personally prefer 1st person, though I also came from 1st person shooters before MMOs so I was already accustomed to it.

But in MMOs youre likely going to wind up witht he same whining as you used to in shooters. In shooters that didnt have 3rd person view people would cry all the time because they cant do things like hide behind a wall and see whats around the corner and avoid getting shot. Playing in 1st person forced them to take their chances sticking their head out, and if they werent fast enough they were screwed.

A huge portion of MMO players would make the same complaint, that they cant see everything around them and have to actually pay attention tot heir surroundings. I agree, 1st person is much more immersive, but a lot of the so-called supporters of immersion would throw a hissy fit without their unrealistic birds eye view of their character keeping them safe from people sneaking up behind them.

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3463

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

10/03/12 10:55:26 AM#4

I'm all for choices. There are times when I want to be in first person view. Most of the time, though, I prefer the third person aspect.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  strangewizard

Novice Member

Joined: 9/16/12
Posts: 42

 
OP  10/03/12 10:55:44 AM#5

Nothing would be greater than having a minimalist UI, surround sound (or headphones), and venturing deep underground to fight say a giant centipede with a group of people. For such a game to work, I'd also have collision with mobs and players, to prevent walking through them (and adding nudging to prevent people from blocking areas, yes there's no perfect solution to it, but nudging would work decently enough).

I've always enjoyed FPS games as the other poster said, but if you could have a huge world to explore from a first person perspective, it would really be incredible.

I'd disable third person entirely, and yes, you'd need situational awareness, but I think that would add to the fun.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13756

10/03/12 10:58:21 AM#6
First person perspective doesn't let you see what's going on well enough to make a decent game.  Lots of MMORPGs give you a choice of a first person or third person perspective.  If you think of them as purely third person games, that's your choice.  If you say it's because the first person perspective isn't viable because third person gives enormous gameplay advantages, then that's because of the first sentence in this reply.  It's intrinsic to a first person perspective, and not something you can design around.  If you want to make first person perspective viable by forcing everyone to use it, then that just cripples everyone and makes the game horrible for everyone, not just for you.
  Eir_S

Novice Member

Joined: 8/07/11
Posts: 4707

GW2 socialist.

10/03/12 10:58:53 AM#7
It can add to the feeling of being a character in a virtual world, no doubt about it.  I guess the rest depends on if the UI is built for it.  In GW2, I know it would be really nice to be able to zoom in when you're stuck in pipes, etc... but that's not really the same thing.  If anything, it should at least be considered an option.
  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5725

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

10/03/12 11:01:40 AM#8
I have yet to experience a satisfying way of making melee combat in first person view. Condemned: Criminal Origins was decent but I doubt it would merge well with progression. Elder Scrolls'/Arx Fatalis' way is fairly dull - not good enough, imo.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  strangewizard

Novice Member

Joined: 9/16/12
Posts: 42

 
OP  10/03/12 11:03:35 AM#9
Originally posted by Quizzical
First person perspective doesn't let you see what's going on well enough to make a decent game.  Lots of MMORPGs give you a choice of a first person or third person perspective.  If you think of them as purely third person games, that's your choice.  If you say it's because the first person perspective isn't viable because third person gives enormous gameplay advantages, then that's because of the first sentence in this reply.  It's intrinsic to a first person perspective, and not something you can design around.  If you want to make first person perspective viable by forcing everyone to use it, then that just cripples everyone and makes the game horrible for everyone, not just for you.

So are you saying that FPS games aren't viable?

The game would obviously be designed differently than third person games.

I would disable third person entirely in such a game, and you'll see plenty of examples of FPS games being extremely succesful (Doom, Quake, Counterstrike, just to name a few).

The MMORPG elements of gear and wealth collection, a static world, raisable attritbutes, etc, would be implemented in this context.

Also, those MMORPGs that give you the option of first person, are normally a joke in comparison to the third person (as you stated). In order to do it right, the first person nature would need to be designed ideally, so that the game would function with this in mind (there are numerous FPS single-player games to illustrate this).

The only difference would be having numerous players, but for a PvP perspective, this wouldn't be any different then a normal FPS experience, for PvE, said raiding or many players against a great big boss, that's not hard to design for, if you consider players forming a circular formation around a boss.

  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

10/03/12 11:04:03 AM#10

I completely agree with you. The worlds that are being created are suffering due to the dominance of third person view.

Despite what players say, you just cant get the same level of immersion or attachment to your character.

its the same as having a baseball thrown to you, compared to seeing someone throw a baseball to someone else from the stands.

 

  strangewizard

Novice Member

Joined: 9/16/12
Posts: 42

 
OP  10/03/12 11:05:41 AM#11
Originally posted by Quirhid
I have yet to experience a satisfying way of making melee combat in first person view. Condemned: Criminal Origins was decent but I doubt it would merge well with progression. Elder Scrolls' way is fairly dull, I think.

If you want a game that really simulates pretty good melee FPS combat, try out Pirates, Vikings, and Knights II.

It is a free Steam mod that does it pretty well. It has directional attacks that you can charge, as well as the option to raise a shield to block or shield bash, and you can also directionally parry as well.

Ultimately though, with future technology, I'd like to see directional-based damage.

Like hitting someone's unarmoured arm to sever it, or having the weapon parried based on a 3D swing.

Right now though, that's somewhat beyond current technology (to my knowledge), but a way like PVKII is pretty solid.

  Hell_Hammer

Novice Member

Joined: 7/21/12
Posts: 75

10/03/12 11:07:37 AM#12

People would complain that they actually have to pay attention and show some skill other than button mashing, and the 1st person view could very well lead to some twitch based combat that could drive away a large chunk of an audience.

 

I personally wouldn't mind.

The only problem that I'd have is that I really like to see my char and how he awesome he looks in that new suit of armor.

With 1st person, you'd spent most of the time staring at your gloves and weapons and not much else of your char.

  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

10/03/12 11:08:52 AM#13
Originally posted by strangewizard

Most MMORPGs are designed in third person or a tactical birds eye view. What about a first person MMORPG? Personally, I never understood why they are not done in first person. First person games are the most immersive, and MMORPGs are the most immersive genre, so naturally, a first-person MMORPG would be very immersive, indeed.

What would you think of a MMORPG designed this way? It would show your character's weapons like a first person game, and likely also have real-time combat like an FPS, however, it would still be about leveling up, exploring, doing quests, etc, like an RPG

Melee combat is far more visually appealing in third person for starters. Also all of that fun customization on how your character looks and what he/she wears is lost once you're in first person which diminishes a big part of the experience for people. Watching your character do things is just fun for a lot of people. And of course there is being able to zoom out and look at everything from different angles.

 

That is why they are almost all third person.

 

That said things that are shooter based would be fun to have forced first person. I still think a game focused all around melee combat would feel clunky from a first person view.

  strangewizard

Novice Member

Joined: 9/16/12
Posts: 42

 
OP  10/03/12 11:09:19 AM#14
Originally posted by rungard

I completely agree with you. The worlds that are being created are suffering due to the dominance of third person view.

Despite what players say, you just cant get the same level of immersion or attachment to your character.

its the as having a baseball thrown to you, compared to seeing someone throw a baseball to someone else from the stands.

 

Indeed!

Not only that, with good surround sound or directional headphones, you could hear that baseball whizzing from the left or right, and if it hit you, you'd hear it from the left head phone or right head phone, based on where your character was hit.

Combine this with footsteps, directional ambience like a torch making a crackling sound to the frontal right or back right of you, and you really get a huge immersion factor.

With good enough technology, being able to move your view around like it was resting on your head, and seeing your character's body, really is an interesting experience.

If you play an FPS game in a dark room, with headphones or really good surround sound, alone, and play it for several hours (especially if tired), you can really get drawn in and feel like you are the character.

It is a great feeling in the context of a MMORPG, and you get a real sense of horror in a dark environment, and a real sense of beauty in a beautifull idyllic forest.

Plus, it completely changes combat. If you made it active combat, to where you had to swing a sword, aim a gun, or wave your arms to cast a spell, it also adds to the experience.

  Amaranthar

Novice Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 2171

10/03/12 11:11:24 AM#15
Put a pair of goggles on and walk around for a while, then tell me how immersive it would be.

Once upon a time....

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5725

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

10/03/12 11:12:45 AM#16
Originally posted by strangewizard
Originally posted by Quirhid
I have yet to experience a satisfying way of making melee combat in first person view. Condemned: Criminal Origins was decent but I doubt it would merge well with progression. Elder Scrolls' way is fairly dull, I think.

If you want a game that really simulates pretty good melee FPS combat, try out Pirates, Vikings, and Knights II.

It is a free Steam mod that does it pretty well. It has directional attacks that you can charge, as well as the option to raise a shield to block or shield bash, and you can also directionally parry as well.

Ultimately though, with future technology, I'd like to see directional-based damage.

Like hitting someone's unarmoured arm to sever it, or having the weapon parried based on a 3D swing.

Right now though, that's somewhat beyond current technology (to my knowledge), but a way like PVKII is pretty solid.

What do you mean by directional based damage? Because if you mean the Morrowind style then thats bad.

I think you mean connecting hits. Yeah Die by the Sword was... special to say the least, but such combat systems have been quite shallow beoyond the twitch element. It would be worthwhile to merge it with combos and stances though: In a way that only a limited number of moves would be available after say a slash from left to right and different stances would give alternate options to those.

EDIT: But I would still think a 3rd person view is much better for melee fighting.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  kaiser3282

Tipster

Joined: 5/21/08
Posts: 2690

10/03/12 11:13:24 AM#17
Originally posted by Quizzical
First person perspective doesn't let you see what's going on well enough to make a decent game.  Lots of MMORPGs give you a choice of a first person or third person perspective.  If you think of them as purely third person games, that's your choice.  If you say it's because the first person perspective isn't viable because third person gives enormous gameplay advantages, then that's because of the first sentence in this reply.  It's intrinsic to a first person perspective, and not something you can design around.  If you want to make first person perspective viable by forcing everyone to use it, then that just cripples everyone and makes the game horrible for everyone, not just for you.

Thats exactly the kind of stuff i was referring to in my 1st post. How exactly are you "crippled"? Are you crippled IRL because you see things from 1st person view? No. You learn to pay attention to your surroundings and be more careful, as well as learning to listen for things going on around you.

I used to play a lot of FPS games, and I used to be able to post up in 1 spot and tell my team exactly where enemies were and how many of them there are in each position, and know exactly when to move in for the attack and catch them in the middle of reloading / swapping weapons / checking the other direction just from learning to listen to the sounds. It was something I also forced my clan to learn, and we held the highest rankings in several games for a long time because of such tactics. 1st person view didnt cripple us in the slightest. It simply made those who adjusted to the realism better at actual fighting, not good at hiding behind stuff and using 3rd person view to see everything that is going on which is completely unrealistic.

  strangewizard

Novice Member

Joined: 9/16/12
Posts: 42

 
OP  10/03/12 11:15:41 AM#18
Originally posted by Hell_Hammer

People would complain that they actually have to pay attention and show some skill other than button mashing, and the 1st person view could very well lead to some twitch based combat that could drive away a large chunk of an audience.

 

I personally wouldn't mind.

The only problem that I'd have is that I really like to see my char and how he awesome he looks in that new suit of armor.

With 1st person, you'd spent most of the time staring at your gloves and weapons and not much else of your char.

The skill argument would still be mitigated as people who lacked good FPS skill could compete by having better gear, people with better FPS skill could beat people with better gear through sheer skill.

About seeing your character; this would simply be a matter of having numerous reflective surfaces in-game, such as pools of water, mirrors, etc, all placed throughout the world so you'd stumble into them often.

Much like in real life how people see themselves in a great suit or dress, but only in the mirror. Placing the mirrors subtetly would make people stop and reflect, and move on, appreciating their appearance. Plus you'd see other players, and know they are seeing you. Look at Team Fortress 2's hat business, and how numerous people buy them, despite never seeing them yourself in normal gameplay.

To the other person mentioning melee combat being clunky, there are several games that have done it very well, and Pirates, Vikings, and Knights II, is an addictive game, as the melee combat is based on holding down left-click to charge (to raise an axe for example), and releasing to unleash it. It feels natural.

Also having directional swings adds diversity, although you could replace that with various abilities that melee-based classes in MMORPGS use, in an MMORPG.

People are often clamouring for fresh ideas here, I think a well-made real-time FPS-based MMORPG that was a sandbox would do quite well.

  Pumuckl71

Novice Member

Joined: 5/24/12
Posts: 127

10/03/12 11:20:53 AM#19

With the recent  mmo community theres no concept that will lead to satisfaction . 

reading all the shit up here (and im including me ) theres no game or gameconcept  that wouldnt get bashed in one way or the other. We are superiour to Devs , we know more bout coding , we know more bout the industries economics ....in fac t they are idiots and we know it all . Read up up all the bullcrap and  negativity  thats going on here . PPl acting like stubborn 4 year olds demanding to get the game they wish for ....totaly disconnected from reality.

  strangewizard

Novice Member

Joined: 9/16/12
Posts: 42

 
OP  10/03/12 11:22:39 AM#20
Originally posted by Quirhid

What do you mean by directional based damage? Because if you mean the Morrowind style then thats bad.

I think you mean connecting hits. Yeah Die by the Sword was... special to say the least, but such combat systems have been quite shallow beoyond the twitch element. It would be worthwhile to merge it with combos and stances though: In a way that only a limited number of moves would be available after say a slash from left to right and different stances would give alternate options to those.

EDIT: But I would still think a 3rd person view is much better for melee fighting.

By directional based damage I mean that you'd swing with the left mouse button, and block or parry with the right mouse button. If you were moving forward with W, your strike would be an overhead swing, if you moved right with D, your strike would be a right-side string, if you moved left with A, your strike would be a left-side strike, and moving backwards with S, would be a bash of the weapon's handle.
 

So moving right with D and then holding left-click would begin the charge process for a right-side swing. A red bar would fill up (fast for small weapons, slow for large weapons) that would determine how damaging the weapon swing would be if it succesfully hit someone, but it would mean you'd be lifting your weapon without swinging it longer, thus there'd be times not to fully charge a weapon for a quicker hit.

Fully charging a weapon would do a mini-critical strike, and possibly disarm a target, but could still be parried. However, you couldn't just keep a weapon raised and charged, after a few seconds, the meter would decrease to empty, and you'd have to either swing or lower the weapon to charge it again, thus meaning you should lift your weapon at the proper time.

It is a very fluid system in practice. However an MMORPG could simply have left mouse click to swing, right click to block or parry, and having your keyboard to use various abilities, like disarm, kick, jumping dragon slash, etc, based on class.

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