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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Human behavior and why force grouping doesn't work

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117 posts found
  Magiknight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/10/09
Posts: 746

10/05/12 9:11:11 PM#81

The OP makes me sick.  "I wont talk to someone unless I want something from them."  You don't even have to speak to someone in an MMO with forced grouping if you don't want to. 

 

It is very generous of the person who started the thread to inform us that forced grouping runs counter to human nature and would never work in an MMO.  The only problem is that Everquest, FFXI, and a handful of other MMOs with forced grouping was the rule at one time. 

  TalulaRose

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/27/12
Posts: 407

10/05/12 9:17:35 PM#82
No such thing as forced grouping. You always have had a choice to group or not group.
  StonesDK

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/06/11
Posts: 1839

10/05/12 10:26:59 PM#83
Originally posted by TalulaRose
No such thing as forced grouping. You always have had a choice to group or not group.

Why hello Captain Literal. How's lacking abstract reasoning, going for you these days

 

Let me help you out there buddy. When people talk about forced grouping it's hyperbole. It refers to being severely gimped when attempting to solo majorly favoring grouping to the point where you might as well craft or log if you can't find one.

 

EQ was a big offender with this when it was released. Only a few classes was doing better on their own, druids being one of them with their ability to kite multiple mobs at any given time.

  nate1980

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/03/09
Posts: 1838

10/05/12 10:27:50 PM#84
Originally posted by TalulaRose
No such thing as forced grouping. You always have had a choice to group or not group.

That's very true. Even in the older games, you could solo. It just wasn't as efficient as grouping. Just like you could group and do quests in modern games, although it's much more efficient to just solo.

  TalulaRose

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/27/12
Posts: 407

10/05/12 10:39:22 PM#85
Originally posted by Starpower
Originally posted by TalulaRose
No such thing as forced grouping. You always have had a choice to group or not group.

Why hello Captain Literal. How's lacking abstract reasoning, going for you these days

 

Let me help you out there buddy. When people talk about forced grouping it's hyperbole. It refers to being severely gimped when attempting to solo majorly favoring grouping to the point where you might as well craft or log if you can't find one.

 

EQ was a big offender with this when it was released. Only a few classes was doing better on their own, druids being one of them with their ability to kite multiple mobs at any given time.

Nothing abstract about it. Group based game will favor groups, pretty simple really. Stop trying to make things complicated because you think it will make you look intelligent. Only a fool would try to solo a group based activity and then complain about it not working out as well as if they were grouped.

  StonesDK

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/06/11
Posts: 1839

10/05/12 11:02:31 PM#86
Originally posted by TalulaRose
Originally posted by Starpower
Originally posted by TalulaRose
No such thing as forced grouping. You always have had a choice to group or not group.

Why hello Captain Literal. How's lacking abstract reasoning, going for you these days

 

Let me help you out there buddy. When people talk about forced grouping it's hyperbole. It refers to being severely gimped when attempting to solo majorly favoring grouping to the point where you might as well craft or log if you can't find one.

 

EQ was a big offender with this when it was released. Only a few classes was doing better on their own, druids being one of them with their ability to kite multiple mobs at any given time.

Nothing abstract about it. Group based game will favor groups, pretty simple really. Stop trying to make things complicated because you think it will make you look intelligent. Only a fool would try to solo a group based activity and then complain about it not working out as well as if they were grouped.

You are being simpleminded about it. It goes with what I said about you earlier

It's not about what a game favors. It's about what a game punishes. Punished doesn't mean you are going to spend 2 days getting what a group will give you in half a day. Nor does it mean you can't take on group content alone

If that doesn't help just a little then I have nothing else I can tell you that will make you understand the concept of "forced grouping" you will never understand any posts made on this subject.

 

Forced grouping comes in many forms. Having your progression completely halt for instance without grouping with others is also a form of "forced grouping"

I have a feeling you and I can circle round this for the next three pages, as I suspect I may as well speak to a bag of coffee. It will be a complete waste of my time and yours

  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

10/06/12 1:25:35 AM#87

forced grouping still exists. you cant do a dungeon in GW2 without a team. There are many events in the world you also need a team for.

theres really no reason why you cant have aspects of both in a game, since im playing it right now and its working ok.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20123

10/06/12 2:33:19 AM#88
Originally posted by rungard

forced grouping still exists. you cant do a dungeon in GW2 without a team. There are many events in the world you also need a team for.

theres really no reason why you cant have aspects of both in a game, since im playing it right now and its working ok.

But you don't have to do a dungeon to play, do you?

Just like WOW, you can't do a 5-man dungeon without a group. You can't do a raid without a group. But they make it easy. A group will be provided, if you hit this button.

  jpnz

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3565

 
OP  10/06/12 2:49:21 AM#89
Originally posted by Magiknight

The OP makes me sick.  "I wont talk to someone unless I want something from them."  You don't even have to speak to someone in an MMO with forced grouping if you don't want to. 

 

It is very generous of the person who started the thread to inform us that forced grouping runs counter to human nature and would never work in an MMO.  The only problem is that Everquest, FFXI, and a handful of other MMOs with forced grouping was the rule at one time. 

I don't recall ever saying 'it would never work in an MMO'.

I just said why the forced grouping mechanic won't be popular.

How many subs does EQ/FFXI and other 'forced group only' MMO have again?

I did back down on my OP since people provided logic and material of the contrary.

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle but like I said, I'm a city guy. :)

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5280

10/06/12 3:54:49 AM#90

A random person can tell you the time, point you to the bus stop or discuss the weather with you, they are great for PUG’s too. :)

But if you are talking helping you out with your job you need a colleague at work, going on a raid you need guildmates.

  faxnadu

Novice Member

Joined: 3/28/08
Posts: 955

10/06/12 4:02:22 AM#91
Originally posted by jpnz

I wish to shift the focus a bit and move away from 'game design' which is the stickied 'Solo vs group' thread.

From a RL point of view, humans generally don't talk to strangers with no reason. Despite the advancement in technology of 'contact me anywhere', rarely do we see humans just walk up to someone and talk to them.

If we do it is because we want something from the interaction; I talk to cafe lady who wants my money and I need my caffine shot.

Humans want to be in the presence of other people but not actually interact with all of them. I go to bars with my friends and hang out with my friends. I don't go to bars and talk to someone I don't know; unless its staff and my orange juice is 30 seconds late.

Exception is if I am there with a specific focus on 'talking to strangers' like 'Singles Bar / Speed dating' but even then, there is that desire to get something (companionship) out of it.

 

Forced grouping in MMOs? Fine. Cool. Have at it.

But looking at how most people (maybe its because I lived in large cities most of my life?) live, don't expect a massive amount of people.

 

I've made sweaping generalization which won't apply 100% (Yes that ONE poster who's like 'but I talk to EVERYONE! ^__^ ) but that's how I view why forced grouping won't be popular. Pretty sure a professional in social / behavioural science can poke holes in my theory though. :P 

ive been saying the same thing for years. and like i said in life if i go buy milk from local store i wont ask 10 friends to come with me not alone unknown people =) but what comes to games when grouping is instant and it happens around you and you can just hop in and run around with 15 unknown nobody says a word that dosnt work either.

  User Deleted
10/06/12 4:03:45 AM#92

I will state one thing,

 

For some people, the solo-friendly environment that breeds non-cooperation will lead their only social interaction to be anti-social.

Either that, or perhaps all the idiocy and youth on the internet makes me want to /wrist. At least socially.

 

I am a very nice, friendly, positive person IRL. I am also logical, rational, and confident...with little tolerance for stupidity, hatred, or arrogance. On most MMORPG's, the only thing I want to do to other people is to make them suffer (PK PK PK!). If there is no FFA PvP, then I will do my best to enter PvP with them and repeatedly shut them down over, and over, and over. Then I /tell "Have you learned your lesson yet kid? Apologize and I'll stop making it to where you can't play the game anymore."

Facerolling, steamrolling, and repeatedly spawn camping jerks, trolls, or any other anti-social kid is my favorite thing to do. I get a real sense of justice out of it. Regardless of their ego, I put them down. If they want to belittle strangers, I can successfully step in and make them shut up or humiliate them repeatedly if they keep talking. One of the things I"m most grateful for when it comes to video games (besides them merely existing and my having enough wealth to acquire access to them) is my skill in any genre, and the ability to (typically within hours, up to a few days) learn enough to faceroll anyone who insults or attacks innocent people. I love making people rage quit when they were so arrogant as to tell a newer player "wow you suck newb, do the right thing and go kill yourself."

 

What other social interaction is there? I am so good at these EZ-MODE mmorpg's, that I can literally solo all of the content. If I can't solo it because it's group-required, I can multi-box 5+ versions of the game and steamroll through the dungeon without stopping with a full Tank + Healer + DPS DPS DPS group all composed of me. (Yea, I've been gaming for so long, and these games so easy, I kindof get bored and multi-box like insanity just to get a challenge...not to mention pushing my hardware/scripting abilities to the max!).

 

Forced grouping and forced cooperation (or a common enemy, like Realm Pride) would actually give me a reason to treat others with favor and friendship. I'd have more to say than "WTB retard free Society" or "Man, these kids make me rethink the evils of genocide."

I enjoy trolling the trolls, owning the arrogant, putting down those who belittle others, etc. It makes me feel like a vigilante, a superhero, a defender of the innocent. Especially with such a serious and heavy anti-bully stance, I love to bully the bullies. It allows me to show these kids (who are half of the time full grown adults, which is truly pathetic or sometimes sad) that just because "it's the internet" doesn't mean you can pick on others, say harmful things, wish others to die, or not consider the fact other people have feelings online and the people they are beckoning to suicide are actually real human beings.

I don't wish harm on anyone- but a humble slap in the face is appropriate for some of these spoiled psychopaths that walk through the halls of their dermatory, trying so desperately to get laid, drunk, or some other form of hedonism that it's all they want to talk about in VOIP-- something that's a requirement for professional PvP. (Soap box rant on VOIP slipped in here, but honestly I'm tired of being unable to PvP in some games or types of gameplay because VOIP is a requirement, simply for the fact that I do NOT want to know what happened on last night's episode of Family Guy, and why you thought it was so funny when you were high while whining to your fat girlfriend that you never get sex.)

 

Bitter much? Only online, where the filth of the world gathers to spew its seed all over the face of what could be the sliver of integrity our species is capable of. Or...maybe I'm just exhausted at the stupidity, close-mindedness, and perversely foul breath that results when a 20-something male speaks what he is REALLY thinking, with all 2% brainpower struggling to activate.

  faxnadu

Novice Member

Joined: 3/28/08
Posts: 955

10/06/12 4:04:09 AM#93
Originally posted by Magiknight

The OP makes me sick.  "I wont talk to someone unless I want something from them."  You don't even have to speak to someone in an MMO with forced grouping if you don't want to. 

 

It is very generous of the person who started the thread to inform us that forced grouping runs counter to human nature and would never work in an MMO.  The only problem is that Everquest, FFXI, and a handful of other MMOs with forced grouping was the rule at one time. 

means you. you dont need to speak behalf of all of us.

  faxnadu

Novice Member

Joined: 3/28/08
Posts: 955

10/06/12 4:10:43 AM#94
Originally posted by MagnusCeleritas

I will state one thing,

 

For some people, the solo-friendly environment that breeds non-cooperation will lead their only social interaction to be anti-social.

Either that, or perhaps all the idiocy and youth on the internet makes me want to /wrist. At least socially.

 

I am a very nice, friendly, positive person IRL. I am also logical, rational, and confident...with little tolerance for stupidity, hatred, or arrogance. On most MMORPG's, the only thing I want to do to other people is to make them suffer (PK PK PK!). If there is no FFA PvP, then I will do my best to enter PvP with them and repeatedly shut them down over, and over, and over. Then I /tell "Have you learned your lesson yet kid? Apologize and I'll stop making it to where you can't play the game anymore."

Facerolling, steamrolling, and repeatedly spawn camping jerks, trolls, or any other anti-social kid is my favorite thing to do. I get a real sense of justice out of it. Regardless of their ego, I put them down. If they want to belittle strangers, I can successfully step in and make them shut up or humiliate them repeatedly if they keep talking. One of the things I"m most grateful for when it comes to video games (besides them merely existing and my having enough wealth to acquire access to them) is my skill in any genre, and the ability to (typically within hours, up to a few days) learn enough to faceroll anyone who insults or attacks innocent people. I love making people rage quit when they were so arrogant as to tell a newer player "wow you suck newb, do the right thing and go kill yourself."

 

What other social interaction is there? I am so good at these EZ-MODE mmorpg's, that I can literally solo all of the content. If I can't solo it because it's group-required, I can multi-box 5+ versions of the game and steamroll through the dungeon without stopping with a full Tank + Healer + DPS DPS DPS group all composed of me. (Yea, I've been gaming for so long, and these games so easy, I kindof get bored and multi-box like insanity just to get a challenge...not to mention pushing my hardware/scripting abilities to the max!).

 

Forced grouping and forced cooperation (or a common enemy, like Realm Pride) would actually give me a reason to treat others with favor and friendship. I'd have more to say than "WTB retard free Society" or "Man, these kids make me rethink the evils of genocide."

I enjoy trolling the trolls, owning the arrogant, putting down those who belittle others, etc. It makes me feel like a vigilante, a superhero, a defender of the innocent. Especially with such a serious and heavy anti-bully stance, I love to bully the bullies. It allows me to show these kids (who are half of the time full grown adults, which is truly pathetic or sometimes sad) that just because "it's the internet" doesn't mean you can pick on others, say harmful things, wish others to die, or not consider the fact other people have feelings online and the people they are beckoning to suicide are actually real human beings.

I don't wish harm on anyone- but a humble slap in the face is appropriate for some of these spoiled psychopaths that walk through the halls of their dermatory, trying so desperately to get laid, drunk, or some other form of hedonism that it's all they want to talk about in VOIP-- something that's a requirement for professional PvP. (Soap box rant on VOIP slipped in here, but honestly I'm tired of being unable to PvP in some games or types of gameplay because VOIP is a requirement, simply for the fact that I do NOT want to know what happened on last night's episode of Family Guy, and why you thought it was so funny when you were high while whining to your fat girlfriend that you never get sex.)

 

Bitter much? Only online, where the filth of the world gathers to spew its seed all over the face of what could be the sliver of integrity our species is capable of. Or...maybe I'm just exhausted at the stupidity, close-mindedness, and perversely foul breath that results when a 20-something male speaks what he is REALLY thinking, with all 2% brainpower struggling to activate.

many good words written in here.

  phantomghost

Novice Member

Joined: 11/05/11
Posts: 635

"Kill me, my man kills you, that's how you lose."

10/06/12 4:16:32 AM#95
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by Magiknight

The OP makes me sick.  "I wont talk to someone unless I want something from them."  You don't even have to speak to someone in an MMO with forced grouping if you don't want to. 

 

It is very generous of the person who started the thread to inform us that forced grouping runs counter to human nature and would never work in an MMO.  The only problem is that Everquest, FFXI, and a handful of other MMOs with forced grouping was the rule at one time. 

 

I just said why the forced grouping mechanic won't be popular.

How many subs does EQ/FFXI and other 'forced group only' MMO have again?

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle but like I said, I'm a city guy. :)

You said its not human nature... and it is.

Its now F2P but considering it is a 13 year old game... not too bad....

I really do not see any in the middle.  Its not like you have to meet the person in real life.  If you are not socially fit enough to handle someone saying hey to you or healing a stranger on a video game... you should probably just give up life now.

"I see they watchin' me and takin' notes on my moves, Run up on me it's all I want I ain't got nothin' to lose."

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

10/06/12 4:19:12 AM#96
Wow, so Magnus is basically everything he claims to hate. So amusing. Good luck being a self righteous hypocritical asshole.
  phantomghost

Novice Member

Joined: 11/05/11
Posts: 635

"Kill me, my man kills you, that's how you lose."

10/06/12 4:26:36 AM#97

I personally believe the issue comes from the new playerbase that WoW built for us.

 

Pre-WoW I never ran into such a$$holes. 

 

Wow-Present: All you have are:

L2 Phrases

QQ

You suck noob.

Ridiculous answers when someone asks a question.

Most players now are just difficult to be around because they are unpleasant people.

 

Not to mention WoW has breed a playerbase full of morons who are so use to everything being easy that they are no longer capable of playing any type of role in a group other than dps.  And by dps I mean just that... most of them struggle to be a dps... most or all probably cannot even do secondary tasks.

 

WoW made it so all classes can CC.  This makes it rather simple because you are not dependent on a select few to do the CCing for you.  (In EQ this would likely be done through a puller or enchanter).  They took away the need to have other players buff you by giving all classes a buff and making it unneccessary to have other buffs.

 

I realize some classes were always easier to play, but now all classes are easy.  You don't need to time anything just slam buttons and you will be fine.  There is little downtime... this makes it easier for you to just slam the keys and worst case run oom... you will be full mana in 10secs or less.  The only time you have to slightly know what buttons to press is on difficult mobs... which guess what only comes from grouping!  (Hopefully, you all see how solo play has ruined the games and produced the breed of unskilled players because they never actually learn to play a role)

 

We now have lost grouping/ being social thanks to WoW.... next is roles at all.  Hell every character should be self sufficient... a tank/dps/healer/cc/buffer/debuffer.

 

Of course since nobody wants to group any more... who needs tanks/healers we can all just be DPS because there is no need for any specialized roles other than DPS.

 

"I see they watchin' me and takin' notes on my moves, Run up on me it's all I want I ain't got nothin' to lose."

  User Deleted
10/06/12 4:32:55 AM#98
Originally posted by Cuathon
Wow, so Magnus is basically everything he claims to hate. So amusing. Good luck being a self righteous hypocritical asshole.

I'm sorry if I offended you so greatly that you feel the need to rage at me so vehemently.

I do not believe ALL 20-something males are neanderthals. You don't have to feel personally attacked simply because of my statements. There are always intelligent, mature, rational people in this world...no matter what their age is.

 

Of course...hehe...your post clearly shows which of the two types you are ;)

Thank you for proving my point exactly. Goodluck friendo :)

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

10/06/12 5:18:43 AM#99
Originally posted by MagnusCeleritas
Originally posted by Cuathon
Wow, so Magnus is basically everything he claims to hate. So amusing. Good luck being a self righteous hypocritical asshole.

I'm sorry if I offended you so greatly that you feel the need to rage at me so vehemently.

I do not believe ALL 20-something males are neanderthals. You don't have to feel personally attacked simply because of my statements. There are always intelligent, mature, rational people in this world...no matter what their age is.

 

Of course...hehe...your post clearly shows which of the two types you are ;)

Thank you for proving my point exactly. Goodluck friendo :)

Did you read the post I was referring to dear friend? You think you are an intelligent, mature, rational person after writing that? I repeat, so amusing.

 

Based on your posting history I can only conclude that you are purposefully trolling, poorly as well. The problems you illustrate followed by the response you advocate makes this plain. I wish you good luck in your mission, you certainly aren't going to succeed based on talent.

  maccarthur2004

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 501

10/06/12 9:06:11 AM#100
Why a person that don't like or want grouping would play a mmo instead of a single-player game?  Anyone knows?

"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

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