Originally posted by Wolfenpride

Seemed to work well enough for EQ and FFXI.

Or I guess in games like DAoC and Eve where grouping isn't necessarily required, but the best possible experience comes from doing so.

It's true the MMO playerbase has changed since then though.

And it backfired horribly for DDO in it's first incarnation (pre-F2P conversion).

I've always despised needing a group for everything.

That being said, I do like teaming now and then, so for me the ideal game has a mix of both.

Originally posted by phantomghost

Originally posted by strangepower

You don't go to bars to meet strangers...and you order orange juice while there?

I stopped reading there, it's a can of worms.

I know that part was just too much for me too.

 

I only go to bars to creepily stare at strangers and scurry away if they notice or try to interact with me and I only order bottled water... cuz I am just that cool.

 

Don't get me started if that bottled water takes too long to get to me.  Thats when interaction 101 takes place.. the whole bar is going to know just how bad I want my damn water.

Not sure why this is surprizing.

A night out with friends is usually hitting a nice restaurant -> bar / nightclub.

I'm usually the driver (and I don't like majority of the alcholoic drinks) so I order mainly from the 'DD menu'.

If that's 'weird' I don't know what to say.

This thread did show me there are some people that claim to suddenly walk up to a complete stranger while walking down the street and talk to them.

I would be creeped out if that happens to me but then again, I lived in cities most of my life.

Originally posted by Starpower

It's human behavior to want to choose when and where to be social and not have it crammed down your Games are first and foremost recreational. The word 'forced' rings badly with that. That's exactly why we don't want to be 'forced' when we get home from work and want to relax. 

 

To some people perhaps, but how many people willingly choose to pursue all kinds of recreational activities with other people, often with set shedules to boot? A lot. Why? Because sometimes we have to "force" and commit ourselves if we want to participate in something which requires a group effort... or simply be social for that matter. Funny thing is, most people don't complain because they are actually doing something they enjoy. In Massivly Multiplayer Online games on the other hand some people seem to be taking issue with the core concept of the games they are playing.

That said, I do prefer when an MMO leaves you the opportunity to get the base progression done on your own. But that doesn't mean an MMO shouldn't encourage plenty of grouping, you are after all playing a mulitplayer game, and so there should be more than enough rewarding group options around. And no, I don't consider things like the DE's from GW2 real grouping by any stretch of the imagination. 

If you really don't want to be around other people when playing an MMO, why not play a singleplayer RPG instead? It's most likely got a much better story and a lot less grind as well.

Originally posted by tank017

WoW for the most part made it possible to solo from 1 to max level.With WoW's success other companies followed suit,thus you see what we see today..

 

Casual,accessable,solo friendly themeparks.

I don't agree with your assesment.

WoW only makes part of the content accsesible to the solo player. If you want to progress your character further, you need to group for instances, raids, arena, bgs...

They chose to make the leveling/questing part soloable, but they could easily have made the leveling require grouping, and something else be accessible to the solo player. It's a design decision.

Saying WoW doesn't offer group content is just plain lying. You can't even  honestly claim ignorance considering how well known WoW is.

Originally posted by nsignific

Originally posted by tank017

WoW for the most part made it possible to solo from 1 to max level.With WoW's success other companies followed suit,thus you see what we see today..

 

Casual,accessable,solo friendly themeparks.

I don't agree with your assesment.

WoW only makes part of the content accsesible to the solo player. If you want to progress your character further, you need to group for instances, raids, arena, bgs...

They chose to make the leveling/questing part soloable, but they could easily have made the leveling require grouping, and something else be accessible to the solo player. It's a design decision.

Saying WoW doesn't offer group content is just plain lying. You can't even  honestly claim ignorance considering how well known WoW is.

Indeed, it's a somewhat funny claim. WoW's end-game has never been particularly accessible or casual, at least not to new players. 

Pre-Cata WoW also had a lot of elite/group challenges spread throughout its leveling experience. Which brought people together on a somewhat regular basis at least. It's understandable that these are mostly removed by now, seeing as leveling is usually a much more lonely affair in such an old game. But that doesn't mean new games should make everything similarly simple to boot. And I think thats where a lot of mistakes are made with new MMO's. 

Originally posted by Wolfenpride

Seemed to work well enough for EQ and FFXI.

I think it was just a different group of people.

For me it's just to be in a living world. Not to make friends or to "be social" but to be around people who are making the world live and vibrant.

I do believe that there should be content that can only be done in a group. Personally, I just like how Lineage 2 did it in the beginning. I could solo all I wanted but I could also group in better areas. And it didn't hurt me as far as gear because people would sell gear that could only be obtained in a group to other players.

Argument invalid.

Worked great in FFXI.

/thread.

I think you're wrong, sorry. People don't just go up and talk to people when they want something from them, they also do it when they see someone in need, and want to help.

And forced grouping, or having everyone work on the same thing, takes advantage of both of these - you want something, and you want to help people.

In GW2, I have only once seen someone run past a dead guy without stopping to res him. I frequently see people run past me in battles, stop, whack the mob off, and go back to running. They dont NEED anything, they just like helping out.

Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade

Originally posted by Wolfenpride

Seemed to work well enough for EQ and FFXI.

Or I guess in games like DAoC and Eve where grouping isn't necessarily required, but the best possible experience comes from doing so.

It's true the MMO playerbase has changed since then though.

And it backfired horribly for DDO in it's first incarnation (pre-F2P conversion).

I've always despised needing a group for everything.

That being said, I do like teaming now and then, so for me the ideal game has a mix of both.

I think if done proprly it will work.  In EQ you could solo... depending on what class you chose.  You could also solo much lower levels... for the most part however, it was much more efficient to group.  Not required but much more efficient and rewarding.  You did not really get gear from solo content (unless you were going back content at a much higher level).

Originally posted by jpnz

Originally posted by phantomghost

Originally posted by strangepower

You don't go to bars to meet strangers...and you order orange juice while there?

I stopped reading there, it's a can of worms.

I know that part was just too much for me too.

 

I only go to bars to creepily stare at strangers and scurry away if they notice or try to interact with me and I only order bottled water... cuz I am just that cool.

 

Don't get me started if that bottled water takes too long to get to me.  Thats when interaction 101 takes place.. the whole bar is going to know just how bad I want my damn water.

Not sure why this is surprizing.

A night out with friends is usually hitting a nice restaurant -> bar / nightclub.

I'm usually the driver (and I don't like majority of the alcholoic drinks) so I order mainly from the 'DD menu'.

If that's 'weird' I don't know what to say.

 

This thread did show me there are some people that claim to suddenly walk up to a complete stranger while walking down the street and talk to them.

I would be creeped out if that happens to me but then again, I lived in cities most of my life.

Went ahead and highlighted and enlarged the part of your statement we do not comprehend.

Originally posted by nsignific

Originally posted by tank017

WoW for the most part made it possible to solo from 1 to max level.With WoW's success other companies followed suit,thus you see what we see today..

 

Casual,accessable,solo friendly themeparks.

I don't agree with your assesment.

WoW only makes part of the content accsesible to the solo player. If you want to progress your character further, you need to group for instances, raids, arena, bgs...

They chose to make the leveling/questing part soloable, but they could easily have made the leveling require grouping, and something else be accessible to the solo player. It's a design decision.

Saying WoW doesn't offer group content is just plain lying. You can't even  honestly claim ignorance considering how well known WoW is.

Uhh,I never said WoW didnt have group content..

I said you could level from 1 - max solo,which most modern day MMO's mimic..

Of course they chose to make it solo,Are you assuming that I think its some design flaw?

WoW became a hit with their design decisions and every major mmo followed in their foot steps.

I believe people have molded and have become accustomed,comfortable,with the solo mentality becuase of it.

Grouping with friends is fun. 

Grouping and being forced to play with others outside of your immediate circle of friends... not so much.

Too many random acts of douchery by pug/randoms.  People that just do stupid and mean spirited sh*t just to do it. 

Way too many asshats that hide behind the veil of anonymity.

Way too many little kids and/or immature tweenagers.

Games don't have any intelligent search features to look for 'like-minded individuals/compatible' players to group you with.  Instead, they just lump you in with anyone... doesn't matter the age, skill level, knowledge level, etc.,... And I actually 'hate' that.

I also strongly dislike waiting for queues.  Waiting for a group of random people that I likely won't talk to and I'd say 3/4's of the time when they do talk they are either mean/douch-esque OR completely clueless.

I would personally love it if games allowed you to create a 'social profile' for your character that acts as a filter when you use group finder/guild finder tools.. that would help match you up with like-minded folks.

Yet people have done it before in older mmo's and still do it today in many games.

Your assertions are wrong.

The greatest limitation to grouping is the awkward mechanics given to the players. Communication is painful and social tools near non existant. It has to be resolved from the ground up. The game must reward players for cooperation  to make it appealing. This is not forced grouping as players will seek it out for all the benefits that go along with grouping ... socializing, advancement in game community building.

It is the fundamental failings of an mmo that requires the creation of artificial grouping mechanics and instanced gameplay that only segregates the greater community.

Human beings are a social species but when a game does not emulate the basic social mechanics humans have evolved around you cannot expect social grouping to flourish. There are far too many barriers in place. It is the fundamental failing of the mmo's development that hinders social behavior. The tools stunt it beyond hope. It must allow seemless virtual integration yet mmo's have not offered any improved interface for this in well over a decade.

Blame mmo's for it's complete failure in making true virtual worlds ... not the player who will only take the path of least resistance. The whole reason why this is such  a debate is because players WANT to be social but can't. If it wasn't an issue we would even be talking about it and we wouldn't have mmo's.

Originally posted by Tamanous

Yet people have done it before in older mmo's and still do it today in many games.

 

Your assertions are wrong.

 

The greatest limitation to grouping is the awkward mechanics given to the players. Communication is painful and social tools near non existant. It has to be resolved from the ground up. The game must reward players for cooperation  to make it appealing. This is not forced grouping as players will seek it out for all the benefits that go along with grouping ... socializing, advancement in game community building.

 

It is the fundamental failings of an mmo that requires the creation of artificial grouping mechanics and instanced gameplay that only segregates the greater community.

 

Human beings are a social species but when a game does not emulate the basic social mechanics humans have evolved around you cannot expect social grouping to flourish. There are far too many barriers in place. It is the fundamental failing of the mmo's development that hinders social behavior. The tools stunt it beyond hope. It must allow seemless virtual integration yet mmo's have not offered any improved interface for this in well over a decade.

 

Blame mmo's for it's complete failure in making true virtual worlds ... not the player who will only take the path of least resistance. The whole reason why this is such  a debate is because players WANT to be social but can't. If it wasn't an issue we would even be talking about it and we wouldn't have mmo's.

 

 

Agreed, Well put..

labeling it as "forced grouping" is simply untrue.

Everybody seems so unhappy with everything.

They hate grouping.

They hate the grind.

They hate farming.

They hate looting.

They hate pvp.

They hate pve.

They hate traveling.

Now if I create a game that you start off max level, with all the best gear, unlimited supply of money, and your character cannot move but just stand there.. would you all play this game... it seems to be exactly what you are all looking for.

Originally posted by phantomghost

Everybody seems so unhappy with everything.

 

They hate grouping.

They hate the grind.

They hate farming.

They hate looting.

They hate pvp.

They hate pve.

They hate traveling.

 

Now if I create a game that you start off max level, with all the best gear, unlimited supply of money, and your character cannot move but just stand there.. would you all play this game... it seems to be exactly what you are all looking for.

Why even have gear? Just go nude.

A game where we all just stand there naked having a several hour long staring contest every day while flashing wads of money at eachother? Hell, that could be more interesting then some of the stuff we get. Im in.

Edit: Just call it Second Life: Uncensored

You could say I'm a shy social guy if that makes sense. I need a reason to approach a person and start a conversation for the most part. If I don't have a reason I feel like I'm invading their space. Now my point here is about a game as you level not end game.

The last game I played that would have what you called forced grouping was EQ. In EQ there was lots of content that required a group to get a chance at a drop that could be a upgrade as you level. In this case if I entered an area where a named mob was located it gave me the reason to approach players that I needed to start a social experience. I feel that is missing in todays games for the most part.

IMHO this type of game play  created better communites over the long run then what we have today. 

@JPNZ,

There are actualy 2 factors at play here which significantly effect human behavior in this regard...

1) Humans have evolved as "herd" animals. We ARE (as a rule) highly social creatures. We actualy REQUIRE meaningfull interaction and social connections in order to function. Deprive a human being (or a monkey) from all interaction with other humans and they will tend to grow deeply depressed and unstable, even to the point of insanity. Think Tom Hanks in "Cast Away".  By contrast, your house cat, which has evolved as a solitary predator, will be just fine with little to no contact with other cats it's whole life.

2) Human beings have also evolved an instinctual fear of the "Unkown". There are very good reasons for this as the world is and was, a dangerous place. This includes other human beings we don't know..e.g. "Strangers". It's no coincidence that the most common greeting found in human languages/culture is the word.. "Peace", followed by a raised and open right hand (showing that no weapons are being held at ready). The anxiety about strangers is based upon this fear of the unkown and the concept that we have (instinctualy) no idea of thier nature or thier intent toward us.

We are perfectly fine and comfortable operating within the "Tribe". That's part of our natural pattern. We get nervous about those outside the "Tribe." That's one of the reasons it's commonly held that small towns are much freindlier places then big cities. Once a person gets to know another person, becomes familiar with them, it breaks down that initial (instinctual) anxiety that we ALL feel.  The person is no longer stranger/unkown...they become familier to us, and someone we know how to deal with and interact with.

......

So we have 2 contradictory elements of human nature at play here. Humans want (NEED actualy) to interact with others, to form social bonds, to be parts of groups/communities/tribes. However humans also are anxious about approaching or interacting with strangers. Some people are better at overcoming that natural anxiety on thier own, but we pretty much all have it. In order to overcome that anxiety, we tend to create catalysts that help overcome it...whether it's an organized hiking trip where everyone (strangers) comes together as a group to engage in some activity and thus have something they share in common to help "break the ice"....or team sports...little league, softball, etc.... or the simple act of when someone new is hired, taking them around the workplace and introducing them to co-workers. It's all designed as an ice-breaker to help overcome that natural anxiety we have about strangers. The same can happen through happenstance as well, people thrown together as part of a natural disaster/catastrophe and working together to get through it is an old, but accurate cliche.

Most people WANT/NEED a certain amount of social interaction in thier lives. Of course we also want/need some amount of space or "alone time" as well.

"Forced" Grouping or other built-in game interdependancies CAN work because they act as catalysts to overcome anxieties and help support and give reason for the human relationships that we all NEED and are comfortable with as part of our natural state.

The disconnect comes in when you start getting into the reasons WHY people play games...which are quite different. Some people play games specificaly to INTERACT with others....that's most of us who like/are interested in rulesets with built-in interdependancy and/or grouping. To us such mechanics are a GOOD THING because they help facilitate the type of thing we are looking for in a game. Others (I'm assuming you), play games mostly to GET AWAY from other human beings, it's part of thier "alone time" so anything that would work counter to that e.g. "Forced Grouping" is seen as a negative. It's as simple as that.

There is no flat out work/doesn't work as an axiom or universal truth in this regard. It's simply dependant on what the individual is looking to get out of the activity....and we are looking for different things.

It also explains why OPTIONAL GROUPING or OPTIONAL INTERDEPENDANCY tends to result in environments where people are mostly not interacting or being social.... because even though individuals may want/enjoy interaction with others in those environment...there isn't much to act as a catalyst to overcome that natural anxiety about "the stranger" that we all feel.

Originally posted by Zeppelin4

You could say I'm a shy social guy if that makes sense. I need a reason to approach a person and start a conversation for the most part. If I don't have a reason I feel like I'm invading their space. Now my point here is about a game as you level not end game.

The last game I played that would have what you called forced grouping was EQ. In EQ there was lots of content that required a group to get a chance at a drop that could be a upgrade as you level. In this case if I entered an area where a named mob was located it gave me the reason to approach players that I needed to start a social experience. I feel that is missing in todays games for the most part.

IMHO this type of game play  created better communites over the long run then what we have today. 

QFT  except I would not consider myself shy at all.