Originally posted by Loke666

It is pretty easy, most MMO devs and investors are pretty close minded.

Just taking an IP and slapping on the same MMO mechanics we seen in almost every MMO before doesnt work at all.

Take Elder scrolls. When Bethesda made Daggerfall they custom made the mechanics for the world and they perfected it since then. Suddenly they decide to make a MMO and instead of basing it on their mechanics or make new ones that fits the IP they slap Wows mechanics with a dash of DaoC on top of it.

Same thing with TOR. SW really demands a very different system than a fantasy MMO and yet they use the same.

Either you take a world and creates mechanics for it, or you take mechanics nd create a world for them. You dont slap premade stuff together.

QFT - Couldn't agree more.

speaking of great ips

Game of Thrones -- coming to a browser near you!

http://www.gameofthronesmmo.com/

The same way they manage to completely butcher great books when turning them into TV shows and movies. Sword of Truth (book) vs Legend of the Seeker (TV series) is a fine example. The show was absolutely horrid and got cancelled IIRC prt way through the 2nd season, even though the book series is 11 strong and spanning 13 years.

When the creators of an IP sell off the rights to their product to these idiot suits who just see "Hey this is popular, we can make tons of money off of it" even though they have absolutely no knowledge of the IP and what makes it so great tot he fans on top of generally being clueless how to put together a decent product regardless of IP or not.... you wind up with utter crap.

Im so glad that George RR Martin had involvement with the Game of ThronesTV series and theyve turned it into an overall pretty damn good adaptation that sticks quite well to the original story (minus some of the in depth detail of course). In the case of The Sword of Truth, Terry goodkind just sold the rights, had no say or involvement whatsoever in the making of the TV series and we wound up with a show that aside from the pilot episode didnt even resemble anything close to what was in the books. People places, timelines, events. EVERYTHING was different. I mean FFS they completely left out anything having to do with the Mud People, while in the books they were a very major part of the story especilly in the first 4 or 5 books.

Originally posted by Quirhid

IP is like a paint job on top of the game - the nuts and bolts. I strongly feel that the game should come first and IP should be developed around it, not the other way round.

For example, the Jedi sound nice in the books and movies but they translate poorly into games. As they are portrayed, they are outrageously overpowered compared to anyone else in that universe. Same for the wizards in Eddings' books, they're practically demigods.

Authors rarely create their fiction with games in mind. Also some have no clue about developing good games: quidditch anyone?

The Jedi is a perfect example. Do you let everyone be a Jedi, diluting what a Jedi is, or let no one be a Jedi? The answer devs  are most likely to get from players is that it should be hard work and only those that put in the effort can be a Jedi. Which works fine and dandy in forum blustering but proves a radically different story when 'everyone' is a Jedi except them, a scenario rarely considered as the illusion is that whatever the path to Jedi will be, it will most certainly be one they can achieve through their pereferred means.

LOTRO took a unique approach by allowing the players to travel parallel to the main characters, thus avoiding the negatives of having everyone trying to play the main characters, the absence of the main characters or the lack of characters thus the disappearance of the core tale.

Just let EA or one of its divisions have the IP, that’s how.

Isn't a "bad" gamed really defined in the eye of the beholder? Some people just hate a game because they feel the IP was applied incorrectly. It's all about expectation.

Take TOR for example. I think a lot of people would have more positive things to say about the game if it was based in it's own unique universe. The game is fun. It's a themepark similar to other themeparks, but the thing is when they took on the Star Wars IP it created expectations from the masses of SW fans. The game failed to meet those expectations, as do many Star Wars creations, cartoons and movies included.

TESO is the next big game where expectation is likely going to surpass what's delivered. The game honestly sounds fun to me, but, like everyone else, I'll be expecting more from a world slapped with the Elder Scrolls label than I would with a unique universe created specifically for the mechanics they're employing.

*How do you take a great IP and make a bad game?*

I''m sure the guys over at Cryptic know.

Great and well-known IPs don't make good games, but great and well-known IPs make big initial sales.

With existing IPs you can market the game both to the MMORPG base and to the fans of the IP.

Originally posted by Naowut

*How do you take a great IP and make a bad game?*

 

I''m sure the guys over at Cryptic know.

While STO lacked content, the basic gameplay actually felt very Trek to me. It may not have felt Trek to those who wanted to play as Ensign no-body and clean the Jefferies tubes, but Perpetuals fall showed that there just weren't enough customers for that kind of game to even support a launch. 

I certainly felt like STO did a better job of capturing the IP than SWTOR did. STO just didn't have content to back up the basic gameplay. 

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Or its more of a subconscious thing.

E.g. they know it will sell anyway, so without really meaning to they take short cuts.

Or because its not their baby so to speak, there's less of a drive to make it perfect. (i also see this when a new set of devs take over from an original team when making a sequel)

I would agree with it being a subconscious thing, but I don't think it is even about being lazy or even the wilfully incompetent that some people seem to suggest. 

I honestly don't think the Bioware and EA people sat around thinking, "how can we milk this cow and give our customers sour milk?". I think they become so confident in the IP, in this case not only SW, but also KOTOR, that they can't listen to legitimate criticism when it comes time to do so. The same was true of SWG during beta. 

That's a by product of the state of MMO testing these days too, beta is no longer a place to test and tweak, it is a showcase of the game and most changes are costemtic or metric, but alpha tests are simply to small to determine if mechanics really need a tweak and they are too prone to group think and collusion. 

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Loke666

It is pretty easy, most MMO devs and investors are pretty close minded.

Just taking an IP and slapping on the same MMO mechanics we seen in almost every MMO before doesnt work at all.

Take Elder scrolls. When Bethesda made Daggerfall they custom made the mechanics for the world and they perfected it since then. Suddenly they decide to make a MMO and instead of basing it on their mechanics or make new ones that fits the IP they slap Wows mechanics with a dash of DaoC on top of it.

Same thing with TOR. SW really demands a very different system than a fantasy MMO and yet they use the same.

Either you take a world and creates mechanics for it, or you take mechanics nd create a world for them. You dont slap premade stuff together.

To be fair a lot of what Bethesda has done in their Elder Scrolls games do not work in a multiplayer environment let alone MMOs. Some of the stuff they're doing with Elder Scrolls Online is bound to be familiar because those mechanics work well in MMOs.

Exactly.  Some of the best ideas from ESO games would never work in an MMO like : Killing any NPC, Robbing NPC's, griefing and exploiting, 3rd person combat (personal preference but I hate 1st person view or topdown views).

 

It is funny that you say that would never work in an MMO. EQ had it. You could kill any NPC, even bankers. You could steal from them. I remember my rogue had a really high pickpocket skill, and a fair amount of plat. If you were noticed, pretty much instant death when stealing from the really high guards or merchants. I remeber stealing items too at some point. Also the game had a 1st and regular 3rd person view.

There are a lot of things people say would never work, but the funny thing is, a lot of those things were in the older MMOs, just most of the people playing these days never played them. A lot of the things that are claimed too difficult to implement (by devs and players) were standard. I think that is why a lot of old time vets are frustrated with the current crop of MMOs and have little hope for upcoming ones.

Originally posted by Adamantine

Well ... what "great" IP is left out there, anyway ?

For example, I would love to have a Conan MMO which was made for roleplayers. Tons of races, tons of places, tons of classes and possibilities, lots of roleplaying and adventures. But what is Age of Conan ? Well, whatever it is - its certainly not a game made for roleplayers. More like a ego perspective shooter with nudity and gore (mind, neither nudity nor gore is the problem here, the problem was the game getting advertised as just that), only three races, a race limited (and in general very limited) class system, and little to no point to it. I really view Conan as a heroic world of adventures, not as an weakly balanced PvP battleground.

 

er, have you ever read a Conan book?

I think the problem with Conan, and othe IP's for thatmatter,  is that players have their own idea of what they want these games to be. No developers is going to be able to create the special game you have in you head. At least not down to specific details.

The other issue is that each player wants to have their favorite IP cater to their specific game type. Some Lord of the Rings players wanted playable evil races and the ability to overrun Middle Earth if they could. You want to up the role play parts of Conan but don't seem thrilled with the sex and violence of a 1930's pulp IP with such wonderful lines as:

"Bloodshed and violence and savagery were the natural elements of the life Conan knew; he could not, and would never understand the little things that are so dear to the souls of civilized men and women."

"Bring me Tarascus’s head and I’ll make you a baron!” In the stress of his anguish Conan’s veneer of civilization had fallen from him. His eyes flamed, he ground his teeth in fury and blood-lust, as barbaric as any tribesmen in the Cimmerian hills."

"She who had been the spoiled and petted daughter of the Duke of Kordava, learned what is was to be a buccaneer's plaything, and because she was supple enough to bend without breaking, she lived where other women had died, and because she was young and vibrant with life, she came to find pleasure in the existence."

Granted, even I am not thrilled with LOTRO but if I take a step back I can recognize that it's a perfectly good LOTRO "mmo" in the standard mmo format.

oh God... PLEASE don't let them make a crappy mmo out of Firefly; the best sci-fi EVER!!

i will go to church on sunday if you don't let them ruin Firefly!

<3

sz

Actually, I think it's most likely harder to make a great game from an existing IP.

Not only do you have the game to worry about, but you have to stay true and fit everything into an already established story/world.  You have limited power to bend things to your will.  Additionally, there is a rabid fanbase behind that IP almost daring you to make any mistakes.

Given the choice, I'd rather create a game from my own IP than use an already established one.

Originally posted by SaunZ

oh God... PLEASE don't let them make a crappy mmo out of Firefly; the best sci-fi EVER!!

 

i will go to church on sunday if you don't let them ruin Firefly!

 

<3

sz

There would be no reason to make a Firefly MMO. It is kind of a generic scifi theme. Don't get me wrong, I loved the series too, but an MMO could be made without having to pay for the IP.

A vast empire that does what it wants, spanning multiple worlds, many forgotten or uncard for. People making what lives they can. A beaten down rebellion, a thing of the past.

What made Firefly interesting were the characters, not really the universe.

You can probably pick up a thousand different scifi books and have something similar and even better. I can't remember them now, but when I first saw Firefly, I thought it was very similar to a couple scifi novels I read. Different worlds had differing levels of advancement, some different ancestry, kind of like the chinese and western flair you get in firefly. Hmm, I think even some of the polity (minus the ai) novels reminded me of it. Could be confusing my series (I've read a lot).

Originally posted by Vynt

Originally posted by SaunZ

oh God... PLEASE don't let them make a crappy mmo out of Firefly; the best sci-fi EVER!!

 

i will go to church on sunday if you don't let them ruin Firefly!

 

<3

sz

There would be no reason to make a Firefly MMO. It is kind of a generic scifi theme. Don't get me wrong, I loved the series too, but an MMO could be made without having to pay for the IP.

A vast empire that does what it wants, spanning multiple worlds, many forgotten or uncard for. People making what lives they can. A beaten down rebellion, a thing of the past.

What made Firefly interesting were the characters, not really the universe.

You can probably pick up a thousand different scifi books and have something similar and even better. I can't remember them now, but when I first saw Firefly, I thought it was very similar to a couple scifi novels I read. Different worlds had differing levels of advancement, some different ancestry, kind of like the chinese and western flair you get in firefly. Hmm, I think even some of the polity (minus the ai) novels reminded me of it. Could be confusing my series (I've read a lot).

 

and yet!  you REMEMBER  Firefly

sz

Originally posted by gaeanprayer

Originally posted by ZigZags

I think its a shame that some of the greatest intellectual properties of our life time were made into MMOs that utterly failed. I remember watching movies and reading books thinking to myself, "I wish I could live or play in this world" and eventually some corporation got involved with the creators of the IP, made a game and it ended up sucking, going free to play or closing down.

 

HOW CAN THIS BE? Ironically, some of the best MMO's still in play and going strong didn't really have a big following before the game ever came out. I find that kind of funny.

You answered your own question. MMOs based on popular IPs do badly for the same reason that movies based on video games do badly; people already live in this world through their initial introduction to it, and no derivitive work that comes after will ever measure up. The expectations are always higher than can be met, because your imagination and fantasies will ALWAYS tell a better story than any writer.

And this is why SWG was far and above SWTOR, one lets you watch their story and the other lets you live through your imaginanation and fantasies.