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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Auction House: Death of Community

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  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 21640

10/16/12 12:40:10 PM#161
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by nethervoid
Funny how the original MMOs, namely UO had this right. lol Taken us 15 years to figure out that an auction house is a bad idea.

Bad idea? I am sure that is why it has become a STANDARD feature, and even implemented in non-MMOs.

Probably because it suits non mmos more.

 

One central AH is a bad idea if you want to include a complex, economical meta game in your mmo for the players to get involved in. More meta game = increase social interaction. It is a good idea if you just want to make the game as accessible as possible regardless as to loss of depth/gameplay/social features.

 

So it is bad for a complex, community driven mmo. It is good for a pick up and play, just want to LFG RAID game. Horses for courses really.

MMOs are not  "complex, community driven" anyway. Most modern MMOs are action RPG with more content & progression.

Sure, you may want to play a blacksmith running your own shop. Personally i want to sell & buy items in the most efficient manner.

And there are people who play the market too. Have you read about the dude that made $10000 on D3?

Socializing adds very little to efficient transaction of items. When you want to buy a computer off the internet, it is quite easy just to look at all the attributes (CPU, memory, price ...) and made a decision. I won't want to talk a person when i do that. Buying a virtual sword where the price and stats are known .. is the same thing.

 

  User Deleted
10/16/12 1:28:12 PM#162
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by nethervoid
 

 

MMOs are not  "complex, community driven" anyway. Most modern MMOs are action RPG with more content & progression.

I'm not sure as to how I am supposed to respond to this part really. If you want a complex economic/economic driven social metagame then a central AH is not such a great idea. I also stated that games not looking to go down that line, well AH is fine. So pointing out that modern mmos are not complex or community driven seems a bit of a waste of time. I know they are.

Sure, you may want to play a blacksmith running your own shop. Personally i want to sell & buy items in the most efficient manner.

Well you don't actually have to focus on being a blacksmith running a shop to get the benefits of a decentralised market place. I'm a massively pvp centric player, but I can see the benefits of a complex economic/crafting system in the right game.

And there are people who play the market too. Have you read about the dude that made $10000 on D3?

I think that has something to do with RMT to be honest which is a entirely different kettle of fish. People can make loads of IG money in an AH game. No doubt about that. But there is clearly more opportunities to "play the market" in a decentralised economy if you know what you are doing, more depth, more complexity.

Socializing adds very little to efficient transaction of items. When you want to buy a computer off the internet, it is quite easy just to look at all the attributes (CPU, memory, price ...) and made a decision. I won't want to talk a person when i do that. Buying a virtual sword where the price and stats are known .. is the same thing.

Well a couple of thoughts occur. First of all is that just because you remove a central AH, doesn't suddenly mean you have to enter into a massive discourse everytime you buy an object as an end user. What it does though offer is interaction between the relevant people heavily involved in crafting, transport and providing goods.

It also doesn't mean that if you are just a casual goods buyer, that you are going to have to treck for hours on end for every item you want. That really isn't the case 90% of the time.

Secondly you are quite right, when you go to buy a computer online you don't want to have to chat to someone about their day. But that is someone different to electing to play a massively multiplayer online computer game with other people. You have elected to enter a social form of gaming. It would be like going into a computer shop, walking up to the counter, pointing at a PC and then refusing to speak to the guy serving you.

Now I am not saying you should have to chat to someone just because you are in an mmo and I am not implying that without an AH you have to spend all your game time chatting. But the analogy you provided just seemed a bit odd.

 

 

  Myrdynn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/25/07
Posts: 1478

 
OP  1/29/15 1:17:11 AM#163

bump because this was taken from the following link

http://massively.joystiq.com/2015/01/26/pax-south-2015-why-arent-mmos-more-social/

Auction house bad

Jenesee mentioned how Camelot Unchained won't have an auction house because that promotes interaction within the game. Alex agreed that the auction house itself tied into the whole idea of the panel. "I don't care who made the armor I'm wearing," he said, "I don't care who made the potion I drank, as long as it's the cheapest." However, a game like Elder Scrolls Online barely has anything that you can even call a vendor for player wares, let alone an auction house. Where is the line there?

I've brought it up before, and I believe the panel agreed, that there is a middle ground. That's where Star Wars Galaxies became relevant to our discussion again. Players could place items on the auction house, which was called the bazaar, but there was a credit cap. That meant items like doctor's buff packs and other items that were worth more than the cap had to be sold on vendors. Thanks to a patch well into the game's life, eventually players could search all the vendors in the galaxy through the bazaar terminal in towns, but players had to go to the player-run vendor to actually purchase the item.

That system was layered on top of a crafting system that made crafted items unique by allowing players to name them and experimentat on their stat layouts, all of which combined to inspire player interaction and even loyalty. Alex told a quick story about how he had run into a guy in Star Wars Galaxies who stopped him to say, "Hey, I made that armor!" To which he replied, "Hey, I bought your armor! It saved me from a Krayt Dragon."

It was a simple exchange, really, but sometimes the simple things make an MMO seem bigger than a place where you just sit in your garrison with your minions and pets.

If you'd like to hear the whole audio version of the panel, Jenesee Grey uploaded the recording to her site.

  mrneurosis

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/22/14
Posts: 276

1/29/15 1:36:13 AM#164
Good for them. Sounds like another MMO catering to niche community with its backward ideas.
  Adjuvant1

Elite Member

Joined: 11/14/14
Posts: 619

1/29/15 3:21:53 AM#165
Originally posted by mrneurosis
Good for them. Sounds like another MMO catering to niche community with its backward ideas.

I think, as much as I want to disagree, you might be right. On a surface level, a lack of AH, or even just a commodities market, does force more player interaction. For what you might consider "mmo purists", this seems a good thing, because it rewards the socializing aspect they espouse as genre-integral.

However, here's the thing. Someone is going to fulfill that role now. Someone is going to fill their days, in shifts with others even, bartering, brokering, buying, and while they're doing this, there will be no controls. Some will become very prominent as "handlers" or "fixers", wherein, because of knowledge of html, they advertise via their own websites what items they buy or sell outright, at what price, and where to go to find the contact guy. No single person without this capacity will have an opportunity to compete, as would have been the case had the ah been conventional and universal across the board. They're swapping out a lesser evil for a regiment of technical domination and while some proponents will get very "in-game currency" wealthy, many more will be frustrated and it will lead to a loss of population base... but why stop there. If customers access your market through the html-friendly ui, accept payments to paypal. Now what have you created...

  greenreen

Elite Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 1736

1/29/15 7:38:46 AM#166

Hey, I just posted on this topic the other day!

HTML was meant to be learned by the entire world. It's very simple. It's just a markup language. There are no conditions like if () then - no loops. It's very easy. I learned HTML in the old days from Draac's website on a webtv long before I knew what a specification was or the W3C. Of course, draacs site has changed over the years. W3schools is probably the simpler place to start if you don't plan on doing it for a living. Tim Berners Lee has said over and over, it was meant to be easy and for the world.

I wouldn't consider HTML a barrier to anything. You can learn the basics in a day - not even a weekend. I'd consider Word a harder program to learn because you have lots of icons to memorize the placement of where HTML is just text you type into any text editor. I'll give you that CSS has become more complex with floats but again, the basics of styling are simple. Once you understand inline and block elements you have it down because the box model is simple too - everyone knows what a box is.

I wouldn't sweat that HTML is going to scare ppl away from making mods. They've done it with LUA and that is an actual programming language - not markup.

I like the idea of community in a game. I can even see the improvement of it on interaction when an auction house isn't where 1k ppl sit in a room not talking to each other. I understand too that it is the quickest way to interact because it takes out human discussion or any charisma or small talk but overall, I see the perks larger on the side of interaction because there aren't many reasons to interact now that games have so much solo content. I'd rather be forced to interact to sell goods than be forced to group for a dungeon. The dungeon consumes much more time and there's no guarantee that any of us will talk in a dungeon beyond someone saying pulling, brb, or bio. I also like the personal interaction because it gives my mailbox a reason to exist.

Often I've sold consumables on marketplaces and someone will send me an email after they bought my auction items saying - I'll buy as many of x as you can make - you can mail them to me if you like. Now, that person was willing to leave the ease of the auction house because they wanted a product only I was making, that gave us reasons to remember each other's names and favor each other in PVP matches or grouping situations, it was basically making a friend. If you know the name of someone next to you isn't it more rewarding to fight together than being next to strangers. I'm an introvert (though more extroverted online) and I'm not prone to just go up to people and talk to them. I figure you have your space and I have mine, the only reason we will interact is when we have a mutual goal or interest.

Since I'm burnt out on dungeons, the only reason I really interact with people is during trade or PVP, any other time you are just in my way unless you are doing something interesting like role-playing in public. Players are scenery in games more than anything and I'd like to see a bit of a reversal on that. If it means losing the ease of an auction house, that's a good trade off to me and as mentioned there's nothing saying people can't make their own thru modding. With them allowing a browser to open in the game (Camelot Unchained), that will encourage site visiting without having to open a window. I still don't think I'll play full screen though :P

Maybe a game will come along that is smart enough to make trading a class choice. It could become the evolution of these games, a class not based on fighting but money as progression. In my game I have a system where goods vendored are available on a cart that passes on the roads. You can jump on that and get a free ride but also buy things that other players vendored. That could just as well be a real player instead of an NPC controlling the cart. What I'm getting at is that there are ways to approach selling without it all being standardized and in a central location. What reason is there to travel to different areas in games when you have completed all your tasks there, something going on with some sense of dynamism to it I think rewards the act of exploration even if it's a place you have visited previously - call it replayability. Funneling all players into the final zones isn't too good for the new players joining who see noone around them. The new people should occasionally spot someone more powerful than themselves which they can aspire to achieve - and that's not imperative to only exist while standing next to each other in the auction house.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 21640

1/29/15 8:54:47 AM#167
Originally posted by Deleted User

Secondly you are quite right, when you go to buy a computer online you don't want to have to chat to someone about their day. But that is someone different to electing to play a massively multiplayer online computer game with other people. You have elected to enter a social form of gaming. It would be like going into a computer shop, walking up to the counter, pointing at a PC and then refusing to speak to the guy serving you.


 

you are assuming everyone plays MMO to interact with other people in an economic fashion. That is simply not true, given the progression combat/loot nature of many MMOs.

Some only play MMOs for the content.

  Axehilt

Elite Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7625

1/29/15 9:17:55 AM#168
Originally posted by Myrdynn

It was a simple exchange, really, but sometimes the simple things make an MMO seem bigger than a place where you just sit in your garrison with your minions and pets.

Don't you mean it made the MMO feel smaller?

I mean I could have 8 alts worth of characters churning out Blacksmith armor.  It would sell, because it's great-quality gear for starting into raiding.

But I would never see it on any player, because WOW is actually a big place with so many players that it's rare that I'd ever group with someone who had the armor.

Most ways of fostering a community will naturally make the game feel more like a small town than a big city.  Whether that's a bad thing depends on which you romanticize more.

  greenreen

Elite Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 1736

1/29/15 9:52:41 AM#169
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Myrdynn

It was a simple exchange, really, but sometimes the simple things make an MMO seem bigger than a place where you just sit in your garrison with your minions and pets.

Don't you mean it made the MMO feel smaller?

I mean I could have 8 alts worth of characters churning out Blacksmith armor.  It would sell, because it's great-quality gear for starting into raiding.

But I would never see it on any player, because WOW is actually a big place with so many players that it's rare that I'd ever group with someone who had the armor.

Most ways of fostering a community will naturally make the game feel more like a small town than a big city.  Whether that's a bad thing depends on which you romanticize more.

Isn't that lack of knowing a case of the system. I've seen gear that shows the name of who created it. If you inspect someone, that name could show.

I think instead that a smarter way would be to alert people of times they intertwine in the game world. Taking cues from social networking online. There is a move now to suggest people who share likes and dislikes to suggest that this is the type of person you may like being friends with. If you joined a group and there was a pass of player interactions where indications of social interactions were mentioned to you, can't a bond be applied or reminded about. If when you grouped it showed you those ties you have had with other people around you, would it possibly spark conversation? I think that's what the social networks on websites are trying to do is lead people together to get them to talk.

Here's imagining a system in action. When I walk past someone, if something is in their bag or on their person that I made, it puts that under their player name as an icon. If I walk past someone I've grouped with, again, an icon. As long as the system can store a memory of interaction, it has the opportunity to offer the analytic reference.  You still choose who you interact with if you favor a lot of people around you or less but having some sort of matching system based on data is going to give you a meta system outside of your personal memory. If network passing is an issue in real-time then toss it into a book reference that only loads when requested and can at least highlight entries of players near you. Once you add someone to friends then maybe you don't need the icons and that changes to a simple friend icon and the sub-categories go away but seeing ways you have interacted seems like a way to encourage people to get together.

The system has the ability to log all sorts of things. Why not take advantage and let it maintain an acquaintance list for you. That's a point where games have failed us is not using the increased computing power to alter the game information available. There has been some stagnancy in interaction where the only thing you know about someone is what is in the "now", totally ignoring the past. Graphics are always being improved but can you say the same about the social aspects -  not really and it's not based on computers getting worse over time. It's based on shinies instead of content. My characters don't have any more legs than they had 10 years ago. I'd rather have better systems than prettier legs next year but prettier legs is what the games offer.  

I don't necessarily think that it has to be small community and memory based like we have now. It can be more expansive for the people who play more than a single game.... but seriously.... no free game cares about building community - they get better results having their community pitted against each other in competition - that's how they sell their cash shop items.  They only have value when everyone doesn't have them. I don't see community translating into a free game unless it's based on social classes - the rich and poor. Community is also not something you care about when you game hop because you aren't prone to stay too long in one place. We've seen ppl basically say they hop from game to game when updates happen, they don't feel compelled to stay for slow periods. Goodness there are suggestions that you should play 10 games at a time this year when you take on that play style. It's no wonder that the 10 game thought comes on the tail of free games. I don't remember anyone talking about playing 10 sub games a year at once unless they were multiboxing like crazy. If it's free, then it's attainable. So, it's not only the lack of community that promotes game hopping, it's the free nature. Maybe I'm looking at it from a tilted perspective but I'd never imagine the word community as meaning the same thing in a sub game as a free game so maybe we need to highlight which community is being discussed when it comes to the details.

  Ender4

Elite Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2239

1/29/15 10:12:48 AM#170

Yeah I'm not really buying this. I absolutely hated trading via chat to the point that I just turn that chat off completely and I still found the older games had way more social interaction. If you want to try to pin it down to only one thing it is easily instancing. Nothing killed the social aspect of these games more than sticking everyone in their own little box. Cross server dungeon finders just made it even worse since now you play the game with throw away friends that you know you will never see again.

There are plenty of other things to point at but nothing else is anywhere near as close.

  Flyte27

Elite Member

Joined: 12/13/05
Posts: 2508

1/29/15 10:24:09 AM#171

I believe that the mechanics should fit the game setting.  I would be realistic to have a auction house, GPS, and maps of sorts in a modern or futuristic game.

In a high fantasy game that is supposed to mimic a more primitive life style where you are just trying to survive in the wilderness and there is a lot of unknown I don't believe the auction house makes much sense.  You can have auction houses in towns, but they would likely be limited to the surrounding area.  Transporting goods to other areas might be very dangerous or take a long time.  People would likely sell their goods themselves in a shop they setup or if they are hunters they would just sell the goods and go back out hunting.  It all depends on what you are harvesting/making.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 21640

1/29/15 11:38:13 AM#172
Originally posted by Flyte27

 

In a high fantasy game that is supposed to mimic a more primitive life style where you are just trying to survive in the wilderness and there is a lot of unknown.

Says who? You can easily tweak the lore to say instead of technology, the setting has magic in its place, and that allows for magic portals, magic communications, magic auction houses, and so on ... you get the idea.

You can justify anything by creative writing.

  Cecropia

Gumshoe

Joined: 3/06/09
Posts: 3467

Poacher killer.

1/29/15 11:55:03 AM#173
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Flyte27

 

In a high fantasy game that is supposed to mimic a more primitive life style where you are just trying to survive in the wilderness and there is a lot of unknown.

Says who? You can easily tweak the lore to say instead of technology, the setting has magic in its place, and that allows for magic portals, magic communications, magic auction houses, and so on ... you get the idea.

You can justify anything by creative writing.

Of course you can justify anything, but that doesn't always make it a wise decision. Even with the most creative writing, an idea can still fall flat on it's face because it was a stupid idea to begin with; justified or not.

"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  Amana

MMORPG.COM Staff

Joined: 1/03/11
Posts: 2451

1/29/15 12:12:17 PM#174
Please don't necro very old threads. Link to an old thread in a new one if you want to discuss the same topic.

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