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83 posts found
  Ausare

Novice Member

Joined: 3/23/11
Posts: 870

9/29/12 9:56:00 PM#21
Without the large player base projection you get a smaller development budget.
  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

9/29/12 10:05:26 PM#22

to be honest the future of mmos looks pretty grim.

the costs to make them are astronomical, the market is sautrated with games, the profit model is in jeopardy with the advent of b2P and F2P, and fail rate is very high and irrelevent of budget. the games require high maintenance and the fans are the most critical in existance. it takes 5 years to make content for 1 month.

funcom will be out of business soon

EA i believe will back off mmo's with all there failures

Hard to say with sony, but the parent company is in the shitter and they havent had a hit game in 13 years.

all that will be left will be Blizzard ( and if titan fails to impress thats it for them)

and NCSoft will probabally become the dominant force in mmo's

as much as i like mmo's...i cant see many investors wanting to take chances on this these days at least not in the west. 

hopefully im wrong.

  User Deleted
9/29/12 10:08:49 PM#23
What future? 
  Asm0deus

Elite Member

Joined: 9/06/10
Posts: 864

9/29/12 10:21:05 PM#24
If Wow would finaly roll over and die like it should we might see some changes...

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  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4812

9/29/12 10:22:14 PM#25


Originally posted by JWTuna
Bieng optimistic, a freak tidal wave might crush the venue of whichever the next big gaming event is, decimating the current breed of mmo designers and clearing the way for open-minded independant ventures making clever, niche games and concepts, based on the opinions of gamers. 

 

Otherwise, the future is bleak indeed. mmo's will continue to be pitched to the lowest common denominator to max revenue, which will mean lower and lower standards. WoW, GW2, Tera, etc...are all designed to attract players to mmos, who shouldnt really be playing mmos. So, as a basic rule the only changes made to mmo structure will be to make playing it simpler and easier. Goodbye charator development and open worlders, because choice and exploration is 'bad'. Hello god mode and auto-matched instances.  

 

Any ideas that make a game more complex or challenging will be junked. Developing the sandbox element would be great, but this clearly falls under 'making a game more complex'. Wizardry will struggle because permadeath is mentally shattering to maintream audiences. DFUW will struggle, just as DF did, because pvp looting (well, pvp of anykind really) is too scary. And so on, and so forth. 

 

I hate to say it, but GW2 is the future of MMOs. 


GW2 is not the future of MMOs. GW2 has as much influence from WoW as any of WoW's clones. The difference being where companies like Trion and BioWare tried to make a better version of WoW, ANet tried to make a game that wasn't WoW. They still used WoW as a foundation. Only they said, this is what not to do. Problem is, they threw the baby out with the bathwater. They really did try to re invent the wheel. Not everything about WoW is bad. In the end, They didn't re invent the wheel, they just came up with a different one. But it's only better for those who are tired of WoW. That's a niche BTW. For everything GW2 brought to the table, it left too much out. The Game would have been more appropriately titled "NotWoW"

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  User Deleted
9/29/12 10:29:48 PM#26
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
GW2 is not the future of MMOs. GW2 has as much influence from WoW as any of WoW's clones. The difference being where companies like Trion and BioWare tried to make a better version of WoW, ANet tried to make a game that wasn't WoW. They still used WoW as a foundation. Only they said, this is what not to do. Problem is, they threw the baby out with the bathwater. They really did try to re invent the wheel. Not everything about WoW is bad. In the end, They didn't re invent the wheel, they just came up with a different one. But it's only better for those who are tired of WoW. That's a niche BTW. For everything GW2 brought to the table, it left too much out. The Game would have been more appropriately titled "NotWoW"

At this point, it very much comes down to what exactly an individual is looking for in an MMO. GW2 fulfilled my wanting of a game that doesn't have traditional endgame as the only valid form of gaming (let's face it, raiding is the only thing that generally seems to count as "endgame" in a lot of other MMOs, so I'm glad for the change of pace), so I would say GW2 is my future.

  NorseGod

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/28/12
Posts: 577

9/29/12 10:30:06 PM#27
Originally posted by Presbytier
Originally posted by NorseGod
Originally posted by Presbytier

I have nothing against sandbox games, and in fact welcome them. My problem is the attitude that anything other than a sandbox is an inferior product and only sandbox can bring MMOs to their true potentiol. I like a mix of themempark and sandbox; that is why I am really looking forward to FFXIV: A Realm Reborn.

You're talking about 1st generation MMO players that see themeparks for what they are. Limited, therefore inferior. The same small group of players that were pushed out like last night's Mexican dinner in favor of millions of  "everyone is a winner" brats.

Every few months, for years, the same themepark is released with a different skin. That's great. Good for the themepark-hoppers. But, why is it too much to ask for a properly funded and supported sandbox to come out every once in awhile?

Sandboxes don't even need to come out every other month like they HAVE TO with themeparks. Sandboxes required years of play time to develope your character. A character that was actually important than some people's families (Evercrack, Everquest Widows, etc.).

Yes, I know, profits. But you know, there was a time when games were made by gamers. There was a time when stock prices were not quoted on gaming sites. Those days also happen to be the time when people played the same game for years because they loved playing the game that much.

More on profits, newer games are all about box sales then running away with the money. Let's look at SWTOR. It was everything themepark-hoppers wanted, leading up to launch. Let's say they stay with the monthly payment model. Which game would have generated more income at the 5-year mark, SWTOR or EVE? Think CCP is unhappy with the number of players they have? I'm sure they are making more money than they ever planned for. That probably explains why they have free, yearly expansions. Will SWTOR? How about GW2? Will this "best MMO/ next generation MMO" of the month have a free yearly expansion? My point is, it isn't always about profits.

  User Deleted
9/29/12 10:33:42 PM#28
Originally posted by NorseGod

You're talking about 1st generation MMO players that see themeparks for what they are. Limited, therefore inferior. The same small group of players that were pushed out like last night's Mexican dinner in favor of millions of  "everyone is a winner" brats.

That kind of attitude, and you wonder why people are so hostile to sandbox MMO players.

Both sandbox and themepark have different strengths and weaknesses, but that does not make one superior or inferior to the other; it just means they're different. Maybe if you'd stop acting like everyone who doesn't subscribe to the "Themepark is for brainless degenerates, the only true MMO is sandbox" school of thought is a loser or not a true MMO gamer, then maybe we'd be wiling to take you more seriously.

  ArChWind

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/19/11
Posts: 499

9/29/12 10:38:59 PM#29
Originally posted by rungard

to be honest the future of mmos looks pretty grim.

the costs to make them are astronomical, the market is sautrated with games, the profit model is in jeopardy with the advent of b2P and F2P, and fail rate is very high and irrelevent of budget. the games require high maintenance and the fans are the most critical in existance. it takes 5 years to make content for 1 month.

funcom will be out of business soon

EA i believe will back off mmo's with all there failures

Hard to say with sony, but the parent company is in the shitter and they havent had a hit game in 13 years.

all that will be left will be Blizzard ( and if titan fails to impress thats it for them)

and NCSoft will probabally become the dominant force in mmo's

as much as i like mmo's...i cant see many investors wanting to take chances on this these days at least not in the west. 

hopefully im wrong.

The first MMOs were not made by high budget bloated cost. They were made by guys and gals that loved the game design and wanted to make something unique. They spent their free time working at it. The big problem came in when the genre exploded in the market and became a household name and a BIG money maker. Everyone and their dog wanted a piece of the pie.
 
There are so few people left in this industry that will gather their skills and work at something for free that it has totally ruined the independents chance to make a decent product that would compete. I can fully understand that artist want to contract out and make back their investment in time so it leave a very few that either have to have investments or people willing to roll up their sleeves and work.
 
But then again, who wants to spend 25% of their lifetime working on something just to have it ridiculed because it does not have this or that functionality at release or lacks something that was considered AAA? Who wants to work at a game design that gives them nothing in return for YEARS of investment when they can make a simple app that will have fast turn around?
 
The genre is not dying it is evolving. It is just not going in a good direction at the moment.
  Presbytier

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/12/10
Posts: 426

9/29/12 10:41:47 PM#30
Originally posted by NorseGod
Originally posted by Presbytier
Originally posted by NorseGod
Originally posted by Presbytier

I have nothing against sandbox games, and in fact welcome them. My problem is the attitude that anything other than a sandbox is an inferior product and only sandbox can bring MMOs to their true potentiol. I like a mix of themempark and sandbox; that is why I am really looking forward to FFXIV: A Realm Reborn.

You're talking about 1st generation MMO players that see themeparks for what they are. Limited, therefore inferior. The same small group of players that were pushed out like last night's Mexican dinner in favor of millions of  "everyone is a winner" brats.

Every few months, for years, the same themepark is released with a different skin. That's great. Good for the themepark-hoppers. But, why is it too much to ask for a properly funded and supported sandbox to come out every once in awhile?

Sandboxes don't even need to come out every other month like they HAVE TO with themeparks. Sandboxes required years of play time to develope your character. A character that was actually important than some people's families (Evercrack, Everquest Widows, etc.).

Yes, I know, profits. But you know, there was a time when games were made by gamers. There was a time when stock prices were not quoted on gaming sites. Those days also happen to be the time when people played the same game for years because they loved playing the game that much.

More on profits, newer games are all about box sales then running away with the money. Let's look at SWTOR. It was everything themepark-hoppers wanted, leading up to launch. Let's say they stay with the monthly payment model. Which game would have generated more income at the 5-year mark, SWTOR or EVE? Think CCP is unhappy with the number of players they have? I'm sure they are making more money than they ever planned for. That probably explains why they have free, yearly expansions. Will SWTOR? How about GW2? Will this "best MMO/ next generation MMO" of the month have a free yearly expansion? My point is, it isn't always about profits.

Yes to some extant it is always about profits. Let's be realistic here it takes alot of money to make and keep up a quality game. If all you want is a sandbox MMORPG where money is not a big deal go play a graphical MUD.

"Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game."-Guybrush Threepwood
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me."-Hunter S. Thompson

  Presbytier

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/12/10
Posts: 426

9/29/12 10:45:50 PM#31
Originally posted by ArChWind
Originally posted by rungard

to be honest the future of mmos looks pretty grim.

the costs to make them are astronomical, the market is sautrated with games, the profit model is in jeopardy with the advent of b2P and F2P, and fail rate is very high and irrelevent of budget. the games require high maintenance and the fans are the most critical in existance. it takes 5 years to make content for 1 month.

funcom will be out of business soon

EA i believe will back off mmo's with all there failures

Hard to say with sony, but the parent company is in the shitter and they havent had a hit game in 13 years.

all that will be left will be Blizzard ( and if titan fails to impress thats it for them)

and NCSoft will probabally become the dominant force in mmo's

as much as i like mmo's...i cant see many investors wanting to take chances on this these days at least not in the west. 

hopefully im wrong.

 
 
The genre is not dying it is evolving. It is just not going in a good direction at the moment.

All forms of art go through an ebb and flow, but no dedium is ever replaced. Do you think CGI replaced oil paintings...No of course not. So while some things change they never truly replace just expand on what is allready there.

"Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game."-Guybrush Threepwood
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me."-Hunter S. Thompson

  NorseGod

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/28/12
Posts: 577

9/29/12 10:46:06 PM#32
Originally posted by Enigmatus
Originally posted by NorseGod

You're talking about 1st generation MMO players that see themeparks for what they are. Limited, therefore inferior. The same small group of players that were pushed out like last night's Mexican dinner in favor of millions of  "everyone is a winner" brats.

That kind of attitude, and you wonder why people are so hostile to sandbox MMO players.

Both sandbox and themepark have different strengths and weaknesses, but that does not make one superior or inferior to the other; it just means they're different. Maybe if you'd stop acting like everyone who doesn't subscribe to the "Themepark is for brainless degenerates, the only true MMO is sandbox" school of thought is a loser or not a true MMO gamer, then maybe we'd be wiling to take you more seriously.

Oh, you must think I'm asking you for your damn permission for a sandbox MMO, how cute.

  User Deleted
9/29/12 10:47:42 PM#33
Originally posted by NorseGod
Originally posted by Enigmatus
Originally posted by NorseGod

You're talking about 1st generation MMO players that see themeparks for what they are. Limited, therefore inferior. The same small group of players that were pushed out like last night's Mexican dinner in favor of millions of  "everyone is a winner" brats.

That kind of attitude, and you wonder why people are so hostile to sandbox MMO players.

Both sandbox and themepark have different strengths and weaknesses, but that does not make one superior or inferior to the other; it just means they're different. Maybe if you'd stop acting like everyone who doesn't subscribe to the "Themepark is for brainless degenerates, the only true MMO is sandbox" school of thought is a loser or not a true MMO gamer, then maybe we'd be wiling to take you more seriously.

Oh, you must think I'm asking you for your damn permission for a sandbox MMO, how cute.

Wasn't doing that, just saying you should consider not being a dick to those who like Themepark MMOs.

  Presbytier

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/12/10
Posts: 426

9/29/12 10:50:01 PM#34
Originally posted by NorseGod
Originally posted by Enigmatus
Originally posted by NorseGod

You're talking about 1st generation MMO players that see themeparks for what they are. Limited, therefore inferior. The same small group of players that were pushed out like last night's Mexican dinner in favor of millions of  "everyone is a winner" brats.

That kind of attitude, and you wonder why people are so hostile to sandbox MMO players.

Both sandbox and themepark have different strengths and weaknesses, but that does not make one superior or inferior to the other; it just means they're different. Maybe if you'd stop acting like everyone who doesn't subscribe to the "Themepark is for brainless degenerates, the only true MMO is sandbox" school of thought is a loser or not a true MMO gamer, then maybe we'd be wiling to take you more seriously.

Oh, you must think I'm asking you for your damn permission for a sandbox MMO, how cute.

There are over 8 billion people in the world i think it is mighty big enough for fans of both types of games, and even the hybrid types like myself.

"Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game."-Guybrush Threepwood
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me."-Hunter S. Thompson

  NorseGod

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/28/12
Posts: 577

9/29/12 10:57:38 PM#35

Anyways, my prediction in regards to the title is this...

"MMOs" will become lobby-based (possibly city hub) instanced co-OPs. LFD teleports to a dungeon map and back to the lobby, by-passing any need to create a world at all.

All the devs would do is create new dungeons every few months and charge $40 for it or sell access via cash shops. And like the FPS maps of yester year, the maps will start out big then gradually get smaller over time due to dev laziness, cutting costs, and the "whaa, it's too hard" crowd.

Maybe they should cut to the chase and just start everyone out as the same class with the same gear with stupid looking over-sized shoulder pads and swords. The abilities can be 1 attack and 1 cc without any cool-downs and the first person who cc the enemy instantly wins the "PvP" match.

  NorseGod

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/28/12
Posts: 577

9/29/12 11:02:28 PM#36
Originally posted by Presbytier
Originally posted by NorseGod
Originally posted by Enigmatus
Originally posted by NorseGod

There are over 8 billion people in the world i think it is mighty big enough for fans of both types of games, and even the hybrid types like myself.

Yet, a group of 300K-400K is a threat to the millions.

  Presbytier

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/12/10
Posts: 426

9/29/12 11:09:24 PM#37
Originally posted by NorseGod
Originally posted by Presbytier
Originally posted by NorseGod
Originally posted by Enigmatus
Originally posted by NorseGod

There are over 8 billion people in the world i think it is mighty big enough for fans of both types of games, and even the hybrid types like myself.

Yet, a group of 300K-400K is a threat to the millions.

Nope not threatened here, so I have no idea what you are getting at.

"Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game."-Guybrush Threepwood
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me."-Hunter S. Thompson

  Leoghan

Novice Member

Joined: 12/27/03
Posts: 611

9/29/12 11:17:12 PM#38
Originally posted by NorseGod
Originally posted by Presbytier
Originally posted by NorseGod
Originally posted by Enigmatus
Originally posted by NorseGod

There are over 8 billion people in the world i think it is mighty big enough for fans of both types of games, and even the hybrid types like myself.

Yet, a group of 300K-400K is a threat to the millions.

Where do you get that sandboxers are a threat? The reality is that sandboxers (and to an extant I consider myself one) are not unified enough to promise a company that solid 300-400K. Look at Darkfall, a game I'd never touch because it is a sandbox, but it is full loot pvp. Not my kind of game, though I wish those who enjoy it well and I hope they get more games like it. Then you have a game like SWG at launch which in many ways was a crafters dream, it had other sandbox elements that appealed highly to rpers as well, but the main complaints was "where is the game" there wasn't much to do not even a good system in place for PvP. Then there are games like ArchAge, which simply turn off Western MMOers because of they are Asian developed and many of those have lost something in translation, both literally and figuratively. 

 

MMO developers generally want to see as much RoI on their money as possible, so they try to develop games that will draw in a wider cross-section. Sandboxers are not a threat, the hardcore ones are simply too few for developers to invest money in capturing their hearts. 

  NorseGod

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/28/12
Posts: 577

9/29/12 11:34:07 PM#39
Originally posted by Enigmatus
Originally posted by NorseGod
Originally posted by Enigmatus
Originally posted by NorseGod

You're talking about 1st generation MMO players that see themeparks for what they are. Limited, therefore inferior. The same small group of players that were pushed out like last night's Mexican dinner in favor of millions of  "everyone is a winner" brats.

That kind of attitude, and you wonder why people are so hostile to sandbox MMO players.

Both sandbox and themepark have different strengths and weaknesses, but that does not make one superior or inferior to the other; it just means they're different. Maybe if you'd stop acting like everyone who doesn't subscribe to the "Themepark is for brainless degenerates, the only true MMO is sandbox" school of thought is a loser or not a true MMO gamer, then maybe we'd be wiling to take you more seriously.

[mod edit]

Wasn't doing that, just saying you should consider not being a dick to those who like Themepark MMOs.

You locusts hop from game to game and beta to beta, leaving every one of them in ruins before a game even launches. [mod edit]

I seriously cannot believe that having the balls to make a proper sandbox and putting their foot down to themepark-hoppers is too much to ask.

Excuse me if I don't shower you with happy thoughts.

 

  User Deleted
9/29/12 11:43:33 PM#40
Originally posted by NorseGod

Wasn't doing that, just saying you should consider not being a dick to those who like Themepark MMOs.

You locusts hop from game to game and beta to beta, leaving every one of them in ruins before a game even launches. Then after launch, you whine for more dumb people mechanics, get what you want, and then hop to the next game, leaving everyone else with a pile of crap for simpletons.

That's like you asking to use my truck for the night, decide you would rather have a convertable, cut off the roof of my truck. You stand there, look at it, then turn around and hand me back my keys. "Meh, I think I'll ride my bicycle instead".

I seriously cannot believe that having the balls to make a proper sandbox and putting their foot down to themepark-hoppers is too much to ask.

Excuse me if I don't shower you with happy thoughts.

 

Where did I ever say I wanted any of that? I was only stating that you could stand to be less of an ass to people who like Themepark MMOs, and you act like I just shot your dog and throw all of these insults and BS at my face. Secondly, I'm not a locust, and I never have been. Also I've never used the official forums of ANY MMO.

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