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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Come on already, we need a true mmo !!!

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Novice Member

Joined: 5/27/12
Posts: 266

9/29/12 8:08:57 AM#21
OP's statements about GW2 are false. Whoever plays GW2 knows why. If the OP is looking for an old school MMO, well, there are a couple of old school MMOs still running. I guess OP is looking for games like Darkfall and Mortal Online. Perhaps he is not aware of those games.


Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 20144

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

9/29/12 8:13:13 AM#22
Originally posted by austriacus
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

To the OP...


The majorrity of MMO players is actually very happy with things like dungeon finders, instance quests crossrealm interaction and such



So dont say We need, but refer to me and my friends, or even the very lonely I.


When do people like the OP start to realise they are currently a very small minority.

If a majority of players are happy with these features, why do they leave most MMO's so quickly.

What are they looking for to keep them playing for longer than 2-3 months?


Thats the thing, they are not looking for anything to hook them up for years. I though this was clear already.

Yeah, I guess you're correct, the majority of the modern MMO playerbase treats these as single player experiences, to be set aside in a short period of time.  I keep forgetting this.

Folks looking for a longer term experience are in the minority now, but theres' still some of us out there hoping for complex and engaging content that will keep us playing for some time to come.


In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
"I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
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Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/11/11
Posts: 679

9/29/12 8:19:10 AM#23
Originally posted by Loktofeit

Wizardry Online


"Thirty years in the making, Wizardry Online is a Free to Play, hardcore fantasy MMORPG."


Bwahahaha! Are they serious?


Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/10/12
Posts: 990

9/29/12 8:45:41 AM#24
People like to forget that a lot of new mechanics and features were introduced as a solution for old problems and annoyances.

- Old school MMO gamers started to detest mob grinding for leveling. That's why MMO's like EQ2 and WoW introduced quest based leveling and advertised it.

- Old school MMO gamers started to get fed up with enforced grouping and sometimes hour(s) long waits to do anything fun, so solo based leveling got expanded upon.

- Harsh death penalties, long travel times, even if they helped give that vibe of a dangerous, vast world, there was a reason that they were gotten rid of in follow-up MMO's, and that's because a lot of the old school MMO gamers disliked them.

- Old school MMO gamers weren't happy with spot camping especially in dungeons, so instanced dungeons were introduced, all to yourself and your group.

You can get rid of those features, from quests to instanced dungeons etc, but they were introduced as solutions to problems that people had in the first place, and they were received with relief and satisfaction by old school MMO gamers when these features first got introduced.

If the issues with the old mechanics weren't regarded as annoyances and problems in the first place, those new features would never have been introduced and happily welcomed by (a very large part of) that first generation of MMO gamers in the first place.

So I wonder how an MMO that got rid of all those features again and is made like an oldschool MMO will truly do, and if the first generation MMO gamers that are now pining for such an MMO would be happy or if they'd realize how much they disliked those issues and annoyances for which a lot of later features were one possible solution for. AFter all, MMO games like Vanguard or the EQ classic servers that take you back to that oldschool MMO gaming were minimally successful as well.

Novice Member

Joined: 6/11/12
Posts: 12

9/29/12 8:50:55 AM#25
What's the use all that is going to happen is people will speed through content, and then complain that there is nothing else left to do and call it broken.  Maybe this genre needs to just die, because the majority of MMO fans are just too fickle.

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/07/12
Posts: 195

9/29/12 9:04:12 AM#26

I think your in the wrong genre budy there has never been a legitimately hard MMO.  There have been plenty of games that are stupid and design monster than no matter what you do you have to have a higher level of gear or friends to kill them but that is not difficulty.  

If you play a hard first person shooter a more talented player could play the last level with the gun you got for the first level and be fine because they are a better player.  But MMORPG combat traditionaly  has never taken any skill only time to build your character. 

I think this will change about MMO's as combat evolves.  I feel that GW2 still allows all players to do the end game even if a its a little more rough for the baddies but because the combat is dynamic and motion based its come farther than most games towards skill based combat.   But this idea that MMO's used to be hard is just bullshit, all the older MMO's like Diablo 2, EQ and AO simply took hardcore gamers not skill.  Most average players could play for hundreds of hours get geared join a guild and face roll everything from their out playing with one hand on their twenty button mouse and the other hand you know where.



Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/10/12
Posts: 990

9/29/12 9:23:05 AM#27
Originally posted by ZeGerman

I think this will change about MMO's as combat evolves.  I feel that GW2 still allows all players to do the end game even if a its a little more rough for the baddies but because the combat is dynamic and motion based its come farther than most games towards skill based combat.   But this idea that MMO's used to be hard is just bullshit, all the older MMO's like Diablo 2, EQ and AO simply took hardcore gamers not skill.  Most average players could play for hundreds of hours get geared join a guild and face roll everything from their out playing with one hand on their twenty button mouse and the other hand you know where.



Now this is nonsense too. To pick EQ as an example: mobs did more damage, your mana pool didn't replenish that fast, deaths were more unforgiving, mobs had a large aggro range and could pull others in very easily. You had to keep your wits alert a lot more than in later MMO's. There was a clear and distinct difference in success results between players and groups who knew what they were doing and those who fooled around or tried to face roll the game.

The reason for that was that the margin for errors was smaller than in later MMO's. Things could get out of control very rapidly and then it made a world of difference if you had players who were good at what they did, or not.

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/11/06
Posts: 1087

9/29/12 9:32:11 AM#28

I agreed with OP , but   new generations mmorpg players looking for asocial  soloable friendly games,they rush games in 1-2 weeks & move to another new mmo.It is way which games companies following they  making games for take money not for players fun.


Look game list they put solo games ,cuse, players ask it , i think  here is  something wrong with majority of  ,,mmo,, players.They dont know diferent  sp+mp / mmo  or shooter(arcade) / RPG

only EVE is real MMO...but I am impressive with TSW


Advanced Member

Joined: 2/15/05
Posts: 483

9/29/12 9:54:44 AM#29

I bet others have said it already but I'll say it again:

Hard mmo = niche market = limited player base = limited profits (if any at all)

Easy (dumbified) mmo = everyone can play (hi WOW)  = large player base (houswifes, grandmaas, just aboute anyone else) = huge profits


Get it?

Hard games (niche market) = Salem, Xsyon, EVE...

Easy games (wide market) = WOW, GW2, SWTOR

I know some will sream in pain now about me saying that GW2 and WOW are easy games but the truth does hurt when you live in denial.

This is why era of hard games is a goner until some indie studio makes one which will be swallowed by large studios like EA. EA is to gaming world what Don King is to boxing or Jay Z to music industry. A good businessman and a destroyer of anything nice in it. Boxing is crap, music is crap and so is mmo gaming.

No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.


Novice Member

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 193

9/29/12 10:05:15 AM#30

The direction that most high profile mmo's have taken since the early days is purely a result of human idiocy, which is the main influential factor in human life.


Basically, it's easier to make money when you make a product for idiots because the majority of human beings are idiots.



Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 5696

9/29/12 10:07:10 AM#31

Originally posted by Sylvarii
Their is one but you are obviously not playing it.

Vanguard is not quite as harsh as EQ but it really isn't a walk in the park,it's a thinking mans old time MMO.It also has a vast non instanced world which has depth and mystery.

Does it have a cash shop?

  User Deleted
9/29/12 10:10:37 AM#32
Originally posted by Loktofeit

Wizardry Online


SOE and anime, nice....


Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/08
Posts: 1321

The more you know, the more you know you don't know.

9/29/12 10:24:32 AM#33

Just going by the title of this thread "....we need a true mmo...", there are too many definitions of what people think of as a "true" mmo. Yes, I read the OP. I do not totally agree with what is said about "what is not needed". Some of those things listed are simply an evolution of the genre that have made MMO's more accessible for EVERYBODY. Let us face it, if people few they can not get into the game and do some things easily they won't play. And if people don't play you end up have a niche game that is not making the devs money.

On the other hand, I would like to see more DEPTH to MMOs in general. I think there has been an approach to all MMOs that just make them more eye candy then fun. Particularly, I would like to see better and meaningful crafting in an MMO. Other the the now defunct SWG and the current EVE crafting system, I have not seen many that are worth much time or make me want to go back and craft just for fun.

As to taking away the ability to "solo" in MMOs....NO. I play my MMOs solo at time and with friends at others. I NEVER want to be forced to play with a group all of the time just because it is the only option. I do want to go solo if I just feel like that is what I want to do for a play session. Content within MMOs should scale to group size....solo to large groups.

Let's party like it is 1863!


Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/31/06
Posts: 2115

9/29/12 10:33:57 AM#34

Getting rid of the trinity is a matter of making more roles on equal footing with the big three, not removing them altogether.   It also helps if there are multiple targets and AI that is smart enough to try flanking and will attack secondary targets. 


Tanks, positional dps, nuker, healer, crowd controller, support, and minion type classes can be made to each have equal importance.  Where if you have a well rounded group of 4+ variety you won't need a healer or a tank, but if you have them, then even better.


That's step 1.  Step 2 is making it so that players cannot succeed alone in adventuring.   While at the same time, cut scenes, dialogue choices, etc, should affect the outcome of events, but phased in a way that's personalized to each player in a party.  Also, a personal storyline you can solo is fine, but it should be a level-neutral kind of drama that is long and involved.  Perhaps it grants some secondary reward points, gear that levels with you, etc.   But most the leveling and questlines should be impractical to do without 3 people, and a max of 6 in a party.


Step 3 is making combat feel not like an mmo, and not like god of war, but more like an action rpg or skyrim.  Attacking, blocking, dodging, positioning.   Cast bars, resource management, all forms of CC, melee attacks that by default hit in an arc, width depending on the weapon.  Targetting using a reticle, with some projectiles like fireballs and arrows dodgeable, with others non-movement dependant, like magic missile.


Step 4 is loot.  Enemies should come in different flavors, like diablo or CoH with bosses, elites, etc, and every kill should have gamers on the edge of their seat wondering if some great item would soon be added to their collection, while at the same time if there's raiding, the result should not be a few pieces of gear divvied up among the guildmaster's favorites, but instead points that can go towards buying special gear that everyone can get.   


Step 5 is world pvp with 3-5 factions.  The PvE world should be the frontier, and inconveniencing adventurers should play a major role in hostilities between factions.  Temporary alliances should be possible when outnumbered, towns should be capturable, mines and farmlands controlled and changing hands, making crafting materials plentiful or scarce.


I have my own ideas about crafting, either a crafting profession completely separate from an adventuring class, in a game where you can only have 1 character per server, or making it so there's several resource gathering crafts, support materials crafts (gems, enchanted materials), and final product crafts (actual armor, weapons, jewelry), and only 1 profession per game account so that it's not a matter of grinding them all up, but cooperating and trading with others to craft gear that is on par with the best that can be found anywhere else in the game. 


Instead of soulbinding items, gear should wear out over time.  Not completely, but significantly.  The magic properties should wane over time, meaning don't get attached to uber gear or bring out your good sets for special butt-kicking occasions.


And finally sandbox elements.  Houses, forts, fortifications around towns, tunnels, etc.  Systems that would make these work in an open world would take a post five times as long as this to detail, but it's time we saw something like this.  The important thing is how long it takes to build and how difficult it is to gather resources for large projects that effect everyone.  If players want to dig a moat, it should take a long time and require many players working on it, same with paved roads, or a new town, etc. 


Anyways this is what we need, and really no mmo will probably even have 1/3 of these features. 


Advanced Member

Joined: 2/14/10
Posts: 2174

9/29/12 11:01:31 AM#35
i'm hoping for DF Unholly wars, in a few years hopefully Embers of Caerus......but yea, slim pickings.

Novice Member

Joined: 11/29/10
Posts: 840

9/29/12 11:06:51 AM#36

dont worry Arche Age is otw! it wil save us all! **fingers / toes crossed**

if not im about rdy to throw in the towel!


Novice Member

Joined: 11/28/10
Posts: 185

9/29/12 1:45:16 PM#37

I agree with this thread 100%.

Anyone remember Lineage II or RF Online? That's oldschool for me and it includes all you stated.

I really do agree with you. You sir are right.

Lineage 3 -
Web & Graphic Design -

  User Deleted
9/29/12 1:49:50 PM#38

Lets start at the basics:


What exactly is a "Living breathing world" in an MMO.


Edit to add: How is this living breathing world different from what we see in MMO's now?


Novice Member

Joined: 12/26/07
Posts: 826

*Everyone dies, not everyone really fights*

9/29/12 2:16:29 PM#39
Originally posted by Fondel
Darkfall Unholy Wars anyone?

It is First person...

I did not like it for an MMO experience...

Not sure what they will change in DF 2, but...all I saw is features and features, and trying to appeal the illusion of being "elite"...which caters to younger players but not the ons that want to experience the old school gameplay, and want to build communities in a virtual world side to side with the action and dangers this world contains.

DF focusses on destroying communities not building them, it is first person and only the ones with the twitch skillz will prevail...brains, immagination, creativity, and most importantly sociability are secondary if not less, which means it does not appeal to old school players.


Anyways, I agree with OP....the sentiment is mutual.



- Duke Suraknar -
Order of the Silver Star, OSS

ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard


Novice Member

Joined: 2/24/12
Posts: 693

9/29/12 2:31:28 PM#40
Originally posted by adam_nox


Anyways this is what we need, and really no mmo will probably even have 1/3 of these features. 

Am I glad you don't make MMOs

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