Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by aesperus

This is something I constantly see both ingame and on forums.

Part of what GW2 suffers from is that it's caught in between a game that doesn't want to focus on linear progression, and a game that is forced to cater to that mindset in order to have a decent amount of players.

Many people (including the OP) still try and play this game like it's WoW, inspite being told repeatedly why that doesn't work. I still see many groups trying to play the game like a trinity. Expecting someone to tank for everyone else, and suggestion that 'healing' is needed for some bs reason or another.

You also see this when it comes to gear. People still think they need full exotics to be valid in this game. However the math shows that the different between a blue weapon & an exotic of the same lvl is only about 10%. The majority of your power comes from your skills, traits, runes/sigils, and how you use them.

The sooner people start seeing the game for what it is, the sooner they can appreciate it and start focusing on real issues (like fixing the Zaitan fight, WvW imbalances, token costs, etc.)

So.....he's playing it wrong(tm)?

heh well lets put it this way say I bought a Rainbow Six game and got pissed and bitched up and down I couldn't just run in guns blazing like CoD. Both are shooters so you should be able to play them exactly the same and get the best experience from it right?

or looking for questing hubs and raids for gear in EVE?

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by aesperus

This is something I constantly see both ingame and on forums.

Part of what GW2 suffers from is that it's caught in between a game that doesn't want to focus on linear progression, and a game that is forced to cater to that mindset in order to have a decent amount of players.

Many people (including the OP) still try and play this game like it's WoW, inspite being told repeatedly why that doesn't work. I still see many groups trying to play the game like a trinity. Expecting someone to tank for everyone else, and suggestion that 'healing' is needed for some bs reason or another.

You also see this when it comes to gear. People still think they need full exotics to be valid in this game. However the math shows that the different between a blue weapon & an exotic of the same lvl is only about 10%. The majority of your power comes from your skills, traits, runes/sigils, and how you use them.

The sooner people start seeing the game for what it is, the sooner they can appreciate it and start focusing on real issues (like fixing the Zaitan fight, WvW imbalances, token costs, etc.)

So.....he's playing it wrong(tm)?

Lol.

Well, as much as I hate that argument, so far it sounds like it.. yes. He wouldn't be the only one.

GW2's combat tends to be a lot more tactical than many people realise. Things like well timed blocks, skill synergy, and situational awareness can make all the difference between a whipe fest and a fun, fast experience. Even in general PvE, I've had to change up my build slightly to deal w/ various situations. For example in Orr there are tons of mobs with hard CC (knockdowns, pulls, stuns, etc.), so having things like stability helps if you are just trying to run through the area w/ out having to kill a bunch of stuff.

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by aesperus

This is something I constantly see both ingame and on forums.

Part of what GW2 suffers from is that it's caught in between a game that doesn't want to focus on linear progression, and a game that is forced to cater to that mindset in order to have a decent amount of players.

Many people (including the OP) still try and play this game like it's WoW, inspite being told repeatedly why that doesn't work. I still see many groups trying to play the game like a trinity. Expecting someone to tank for everyone else, and suggestion that 'healing' is needed for some bs reason or another.

You also see this when it comes to gear. People still think they need full exotics to be valid in this game. However the math shows that the different between a blue weapon & an exotic of the same lvl is only about 10%. The majority of your power comes from your skills, traits, runes/sigils, and how you use them.

The sooner people start seeing the game for what it is, the sooner they can appreciate it and start focusing on real issues (like fixing the Zaitan fight, WvW imbalances, token costs, etc.)

So.....he's playing it wrong(tm)?

Yep and I've given several reasons HOW he's (OP) doing it based on observations and experiences of my guildmates. I asked them about his issues last night, the concencus with my guildies is he didn't know what he was doing and didn't bother to look up ANY data on the subject. I agree with them. Follow the rules that every mmo has laid out and you'll do fine. For example, make a junk outfit for doing non Orr events that has a REALLY REALLY high magic find on it, eat the magic find food enhancements and you'll have pleanty of money after a few key events from selling those items in the TP. It's no magic secret. And that's just one of the many things they were explainin to me that he's not doing that are obvious things he could do to improve his gameplay.

Originally posted by snapfusion

Originally posted by Xepo

After reading a few posts I just sat with my head in my hands. Anet has some tweaking to aspects of the game. Respawn rates and enemy densisty in zones will be adjusted as the game settles and player bases spread out through out the game. I remember in a few other MMOs the enemy spawn rates were scewed until things settled after launch.

 

As far as the whole trinity and game play being bad.... it just goes to show how many people have been craddled like little babies for too long. Button mashing endless rotations with little plaining on ability usage for too long leads to bad habits of game play. GW2 gives players a chance to better control their gameplay and this gamer is excited about it. This is not a game where you go from 1-30 or higher without dying a few times AND dying a few times in a dungeon is NOT a failed group or over powered enemies. It is a challenging game that makes me want to get better at my evassive abilities and learn to do better next time. Many classes especially the guardian can be a great support healer if traited and played right. Before writing off the game as bad design take more than a few weeks of game play to try out the different trait and stat options for better configurations in group play. You might realize how versatile the game can be.

 

For many we have been handed such an easy game play formula for so long that when something challenging and different comes along you'd rather run back to candyland.

So endlessly button mashing dodge and CC abilities is better why?

LOL it's better then macro builds dps meters and gear checkers to boot people you don't like ANY day let me tell you. I frankly don't want to stand there and push three buttons only the entire fight like what's happened in games like WoW, SWTOR. :) yes it is better in GW2.

Originally posted by TsaboHavoc

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by aesperus

This is something I constantly see both ingame and on forums.

Part of what GW2 suffers from is that it's caught in between a game that doesn't want to focus on linear progression, and a game that is forced to cater to that mindset in order to have a decent amount of players.

Many people (including the OP) still try and play this game like it's WoW, inspite being told repeatedly why that doesn't work. I still see many groups trying to play the game like a trinity. Expecting someone to tank for everyone else, and suggestion that 'healing' is needed for some bs reason or another.

You also see this when it comes to gear. People still think they need full exotics to be valid in this game. However the math shows that the different between a blue weapon & an exotic of the same lvl is only about 10%. The majority of your power comes from your skills, traits, runes/sigils, and how you use them.

The sooner people start seeing the game for what it is, the sooner they can appreciate it and start focusing on real issues (like fixing the Zaitan fight, WvW imbalances, token costs, etc.)

So.....he's playing it wrong(tm)?

heh well lets put it this way say I bought a Rainbow Six game and got pissed and bitched up and down I couldn't just run in guns blazing like CoD. Both are shooters so you should be able to play them exactly the same and get the best experience from it right?

or looking for questing hubs and raids for gear in EVE?

What's funny is that if we were to apply this same argument to single player games, it would seem absolutely absurd. However, for some reason when it comes to MMOs we just can't grasp that different games play differently.

For example: Would you say zelda sucks, because you played Final Fantasy first, and can't believe Zelda wouldn't have levels, gear grinds, or a tank / healer? I don't get why every fantasy MMO is expected to play like FF, when there are other mechanics out there.

Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by TsaboHavoc

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by aesperus

This is something I constantly see both ingame and on forums.

Part of what GW2 suffers from is that it's caught in between a game that doesn't want to focus on linear progression, and a game that is forced to cater to that mindset in order to have a decent amount of players.

Many people (including the OP) still try and play this game like it's WoW, inspite being told repeatedly why that doesn't work. I still see many groups trying to play the game like a trinity. Expecting someone to tank for everyone else, and suggestion that 'healing' is needed for some bs reason or another.

You also see this when it comes to gear. People still think they need full exotics to be valid in this game. However the math shows that the different between a blue weapon & an exotic of the same lvl is only about 10%. The majority of your power comes from your skills, traits, runes/sigils, and how you use them.

The sooner people start seeing the game for what it is, the sooner they can appreciate it and start focusing on real issues (like fixing the Zaitan fight, WvW imbalances, token costs, etc.)

So.....he's playing it wrong(tm)?

heh well lets put it this way say I bought a Rainbow Six game and got pissed and bitched up and down I couldn't just run in guns blazing like CoD. Both are shooters so you should be able to play them exactly the same and get the best experience from it right?

or looking for questing hubs and raids for gear in EVE?

What's funny is that if we were to apply this same argument to single player games, it would seem absolutely absurd. However, for some reason when it comes to MMOs we just can't grasp that different games play differently.

For example: Would you say zelda sucks, because you played Final Fantasy first, and can't believe Zelda wouldn't have levels, gear grinds, or a tank / healer? I don't get why every fantasy MMO is expected to play like FF, when there are other mechanics out there.

exactly i don't understand why it's such a hard concept for people.. differn't games with a differn't game design require differn't ways to play to get the most out of it.. 

So your problem is that this game is actually "too hard"... Well boohoo...

The trinity, well... GW1 didn't have exact trinity either and it worked really well if people KNEW WHAT THEY'RE DOING.

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by TsaboHavoc

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by aesperus

This is something I constantly see both ingame and on forums.

Part of what GW2 suffers from is that it's caught in between a game that doesn't want to focus on linear progression, and a game that is forced to cater to that mindset in order to have a decent amount of players.

Many people (including the OP) still try and play this game like it's WoW, inspite being told repeatedly why that doesn't work. I still see many groups trying to play the game like a trinity. Expecting someone to tank for everyone else, and suggestion that 'healing' is needed for some bs reason or another.

You also see this when it comes to gear. People still think they need full exotics to be valid in this game. However the math shows that the different between a blue weapon & an exotic of the same lvl is only about 10%. The majority of your power comes from your skills, traits, runes/sigils, and how you use them.

The sooner people start seeing the game for what it is, the sooner they can appreciate it and start focusing on real issues (like fixing the Zaitan fight, WvW imbalances, token costs, etc.)

So.....he's playing it wrong(tm)?

heh well lets put it this way say I bought a Rainbow Six game and got pissed and bitched up and down I couldn't just run in guns blazing like CoD. Both are shooters so you should be able to play them exactly the same and get the best experience from it right?

or looking for questing hubs and raids for gear in EVE?

What's funny is that if we were to apply this same argument to single player games, it would seem absolutely absurd. However, for some reason when it comes to MMOs we just can't grasp that different games play differently.

For example: Would you say zelda sucks, because you played Final Fantasy first, and can't believe Zelda wouldn't have levels, gear grinds, or a tank / healer? I don't get why every fantasy MMO is expected to play like FF, when there are other mechanics out there.

exactly i don't understand why it's such a hard concept for people.. differn't games with a differn't game design require differn't ways to play to get the most out of it.. 

the explenation for this brings us back to the same old thing... People expect mmos to be the same as wow since they tried to copy it for so long.

Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by aesperus

 

 

Lol.

Well, as much as I hate that argument, so far it sounds like it.. yes. He wouldn't be the only one.

GW2's combat tends to be a lot more tactical than many people realise. Things like well timed blocks, skill synergy, and situational awareness can make all the difference between a whipe fest and a fun, fast experience. Even in general PvE, I've had to change up my build slightly to deal w/ various situations. For example in Orr there are tons of mobs with hard CC (knockdowns, pulls, stuns, etc.), so having things like stability helps if you are just trying to run through the area w/ out having to kill a bunch of stuff.

To a lesser or greater extent the combat in pretty much every game (I have played) is more tactical than a large amount of players realise.

But there is to my mind a major issue with GW2 combat and that is that it is just far, far too two speed. For 99% of the game you have a faceroll zerg fest which seems to actively promote people not bothering to set up combos, set out good builds, think about group interplay and synergy. Then you have a small amount of content (dungeons and sPvP tournys) which is all about team play and actually "being goodTM".

PUGs are always bad, everyone knows that, but even in "worse" games in pug arenas you have people calling out instructions, working as a group a bit. The pick up sPvP here is honestly the worst I have ever seen and I think that it is down to the fact that most of the gameplay is mindless.

If you are going to have a potentially deep and complex group combat system, then you should be pushing that through most of your gameplay features, not just some of it. By pushing I mean gradually promoting the need for it so everyone gets introduced to it over time.

Originally posted by Karteli

GW2 is pretty much a single player game, converted into an MMO.  Everyone, every player is pretty much anonymous, outside of the people you see directly in front of you, or the folks in a localized chat window.  Even then with the people in front of you, it's impossible to inspect their gear or achievements.

 

It just lacks the social elements of other games .. /who command? inspect upgrade choices? .. for instance.

 

It's OK just to log into once in a while because it's B2P (and P2P would have been the death of this game).  But everything is focused around the individual player, and not other players.  Why would I care if I get a legendary armor set?  Who would notice?

 

As for the removal of the trinity, that might be OK for a light casual game, but not for an RPG.  Everyone has the same cookie cutter class .. everyone can tank, heal, and dps .. yay?  There is no importance to any role any longer .. nobody feels important in the end, they are just "another" player.

 

I feel for you too, because I also see GW2 as having an amazing graphics engine with core ideas that are simply the best.  I only wish I felt more a part of the GW2 world whenever I log in.  As it is, nobody knows I exist, and it's a lonely experience, even if I'm in a guild.  Do they even notice when I log on?  Since everything outside of dungeons is soloable it's just bland (with dungeons why care since you can get equal gear via solo) ... It's just such an empty empty game world ..

I'm sorry to say I agree with you wholeheartedly. Well put.

I enjoy well defined roles. I enjoy the contest with other people. And I thoroughly enjoy relying on a community/group to achieve my own and the collective goals. None of that is present here. Guess I picked up the wrong game for my tastebuds at least.

I believe for players like myself, the change to trinity shouldn't be a mesh of all roles into one character. I'd suggest a further addition of more roles - off the top of my head, and this is not thinking too far outside the box; dedicated aggro-managers, buffers and debuffers are 3 extra roles right there - in addition to the classic tank, healer and damage dealer. From the developer side you'd have to make the results from each role quantifiable, to give that "I'm so useful"-feeling, and of course to get other roles to recognize them as valuable. As an example, what if the percentage of damage from one dps showed up in the damage meter "as provided by buffs from player X", or hate-meters where an aggro manager get to show off how big a deal her efforts were in letting the damage dealers outhate the tank. I can also think of several ways of making boss encounters more interesting this way, while still maintaining the difficulty and style of fights we're used to. Sorry, I've started to ramble, anyway...

To all the people defending the game; if you like it, good for you! Just keep in mind your own arguments in case the new car smell disappears, yeah? :)

Originally posted by Naral

Originally posted by Connmacart

Originally posted by thexrated

Originally posted by eggy08

The only lack in social interaction is the lack of effort that people put into it themselves.

Shifting the blame. It is a design decision. In games, just like in real life, people need reasons to socialise, group and network. Society is based on the fact that we can achieve more together than alone.

If you go to a bar and just sit there drinking quietly and afterwards complain no one talked to you. That doesn't mean the place isn't social. In games just as in real life you need to put in effort to socialize it does not happen on its own. So stop shifting the problem to the game.

But that is not what GW2 feels like to me. It feels more like going into a bar, trying to talk to people, and have them give as short a response as possible to answer your question before turning and walking away. In my experience, people in GW2 overall do not *want* to socialize or interact. They are too busy tearing off after the next DE or map point of interest etc.  The game does not require interaction on that level, and many people, again in my experience, do not bother with it.

There is too much hand holding in themepark MMOs these days. We see too much information in the map, looking- for-group tools reduce the need to interact with people, cross-server scenarios, and content build on fast consumption and instant gratification also has an impact on socialization.

WoW in vanilla had a nice balance. There was a lot of chat in every zone you were. People asking for help or just chatting. Once we started to get all those tools, some build first by players, to trivialize content, it started going downhill in terms of socialization. I really hated the fact that you could just teleport to an instance with a random group of people. I also hated the fact that there was a big ass arrow showing me exactly where I needed to go to complete a quest.

Originally posted by Indrome

Originally posted by Karteli

GW2 is pretty much a single player game, converted into an MMO.  Everyone, every player is pretty much anonymous, outside of the people you see directly in front of you, or the folks in a localized chat window.  Even then with the people in front of you, it's impossible to inspect their gear or achievements.

[ ... ]

Can people please stop saying that? It's hyperbolic rubbish and shouldn't count as an argument for anything. It doesn't even feel like an opinion anymore ... more like a figure of speech or a provoking catch-all-phrase that is used on every single MMO where the most menial content is plainly soloable.

I have never experienced an MMO where a player wasn't anonymous when he wasn't standing in front of me or talking in general chat (zone chat, map chat, it's all the same). I agree that I (should) miss gear-inspect. But that's just because I've gotten so very used to it in the past. I've never had the feeling I NEEDED it for anything useful. It's a nice gimmick to have like the group finder but its absence is not an indicator of a "single player game".

Personally, I feel this is the most multiplayer-scentric MMO I've ever played. BEcause people are able to gain something from it, they actually stop and help others even if not necessarily needed. In no other MMO (EVER) would I have been resurrected by a stranger. I don't get where this "singleplayer-MMO" bullsh*t comes from.

 

@OP:

Don't like it for the game it is and not for the game it's not ... well, at least you've given it an honest try. Just sit back and wait a couple of months maybe. You won't paying a sub until then so it will definitely be worth your while.

so very true, i have met a good number of nice people in this game, no other mmo i have met would random people run across the map to revive you, here i have had it more then once when i said in map chat "ive fallen and i cant get up"  many times multi people asked for a waypoint link and rushed over to help.......hows that not being social?

i have sat and chatted with people for good periods of time and had fun doing it, I really think its like the bar Analogy somebody posted earlier, if you dont make any effort to be social, thats not the fault of the game, these people would have HATED ultima online, because you had to make the effort to make friends, it wasnt forced on people to mke friends......but then again it was the first true mmo.....so most of these people who say how great EQ was probably havent even heard of, let alone played UO(you would be shocked how many ppl in GW2 know of and have played UO tho, you start talking about it and a bunch of people chime in with fond memories!!!

Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by ZizouX

People are used to the carrot on the stick approach.

I left games because it focused on "progression" to much (WoW, Swtor, etc).

People are having a hard time coming out of the box they've lived in for the last 10 years.  MMOs have all tried to be like WoW, one way or another.  When a game comes along and makes EVERYONE EQUAL where fun and skill are the basis for competition, instead of gear grinds, people can't handle the freedom.

If you want a more structured game with hard set rules, progression, and carrots on sticks.... 99% of the market will offer it to you.   For me, I like not having to play GW2 for 3 months, come back, and feel that I'm still on equal footing as everyone else.

BTW - those of you saying Guild Wars 2 has simple combat is just flat out false.  Gw2 classes have more customization and variety than most other games combined.

This is something I constantly see both ingame and on forums.

Part of what GW2 suffers from is that it's caught in between a game that doesn't want to focus on linear progression, and a game that is forced to cater to that mindset in order to have a decent amount of players.

Many people (including the OP) still try and play this game like it's WoW, inspite being told repeatedly why that doesn't work. I still see many groups trying to play the game like a trinity. Expecting someone to tank for everyone else, and suggestion that 'healing' is needed for some bs reason or another.

You also see this when it comes to gear. People still think they need full exotics to be valid in this game. However the math shows that the different between a blue weapon & an exotic of the same lvl is only about 10%. The majority of your power comes from your skills, traits, runes/sigils, and how you use them.

The sooner people start seeing the game for what it is, the sooner they can appreciate it and start focusing on real issues (like fixing the Zaitan fight, WvW imbalances, token costs, etc.)

this is the main problem I see as well, other then the camara and FOV issues that cause people to dislike the game and blame other things(my buddy from the UK hated it and couldnt figure out why till he read one of the fov threads on the official gw2 forums, then he tried the camaratool+downsampling and is really enjoying it, the feeling of unease/dislike went away) 

these people would have HATED UO, no quest givers really, no Levels, no gear progession really....you could dye your stuff and in private shards create more cool items, but the game really didnt have the gear progression that people expect.

I said it during the bwe's, anet should have just left the cap off levels but had your stats/exct stay like they are at 80(still gain skill points and such like you do now, but show that you have leveled so they feel like they are progressing....)

this would have helped the "must progress" crowd feel like they where doing something and would let them feel like their epeen is engorged by being higher leveled then other people....

Originally posted by Hrimnir

I can honestly say i've never been this confused by an MMO.  And i don't mean actually confused, im not a bumpkin, i mean confused by design decisions, etc.  Too many things just felt like they were change for the sake of change, and not because they actually came up with a better method.

"You can't just make another WoW Clone, we are so Tired of WoW Clones."

(fans following SWTOR release, circa January)

"You're changing things just to be different!  I don't understand it!"

(October)

It's all right to be confused, the marketers and developers clearly are as well.

The fans?  I'd estimate it as an even split between 'give us something different for fug's sake' and 'please, make it just like Wow'.