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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The time to bring back Sandboxes IS NOW!

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123 posts found
  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5514

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

9/27/12 7:57:25 AM#61
Originally posted by kevjards
Originally posted by Ghost12
 

this..i have heard the term sandbox floating around,can someone please explain the difference between lets say conan and a sandbox mmo please...i would be very greatful

Sandboxes are like communism: It sounds fantastic but never works (in its purest form).

But in all seriousness, this would be a topic for another thread, I think.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18993

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

9/27/12 8:03:20 AM#62
Originally posted by kevjards
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by Failings
I believe the sandbox formula has always been what MMOs were about. The genre was led astray by WoW's success but finally it seems we're coming out of that infernal cycle.

I've been thinking about that.

 

Its possible that WoW was a sort of necessary evil. It brought many new players into the genre. Unfortunately, these players dont really know what a sandbox is. However, I believe at this point, players are ready "for more" and ready for the genre to evolve into something more, giving players their freedoms back.

WoW was the training wheels. Now, we're ready for the real deal.

this..i have heard the term sandbox floating around,can someone please explain the difference between lets say conan and a sandbox mmo please...i would be very greatful

That's a really tall order, and there's been dozens of threads on these forums about what makes a sandbox, and the answer is, different things to different people. 

There is no commonly accepted definition of what a sandbox style MMORPG really is, (on these forums anyways) unless you accept the definitions posted on Wikipedia.

In my case, I know one when I see one.  I play EVE, very heavy on sandbox style design and game mechanics, I've played AOC, much more theme park like in design though I would have to write a huge post to explain my reasonings. (not a post for this thread)

In the end some folks would agree with my view, probably very many more would not.

That's a debate that will never be settled.

 

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  dinams

Novice Member

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 1403

9/27/12 8:04:12 AM#63

Good intention, bad execution

All I see in the OP is yelling and propheticizing to the masses while manifesting the OP hatred for themeparks

 

"It has potential"
-Second most used phrase on existence
"It sucks"
-Most used phrase on existence

  User Deleted
 
OP  9/27/12 8:16:27 AM#64
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Ghost12

"If there are no good MMOs, people will play something else. "

Now that is faulty logic. If there are no good MMOs, then those players will not play anymore MMOs (Or just stick to playing WoW) The "other games" do not factor into the equation here. We're talking about MMOs, not the entire game market.

No, it is perfectly logical. We've been watching it happen for four years or so, as MMO gamers have been shifting more of their gaming time to MOBAs, Action RPGs, MMOFPS/RTS, mobile games, and singleplayer RPGs.

 

But thats not the point.

 

If a product is underperforming, and if your customer base is unhappy with it , you improve the product. Not sit back and watch them move on to other things.

  apocoluster

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/15/07
Posts: 1295

\m/,

9/27/12 8:18:07 AM#65
Originally posted by dinams

Good intention, bad execution

All I see in the OP is yelling and propheticizing to the masses while manifesting the OP hatred for themeparks

 

...and talking down to all who would disagree with him as if only his thoughts and opinions matter on the subject.  Sadly I dont even think he realizes he is doing it. This is undermining his entire position making this thread more a farce than a discussion.

No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin

  raistlinm

Novice Member

Joined: 8/23/11
Posts: 686

9/27/12 8:19:00 AM#66
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Quirhid

Look, another MMO Moses. Please tell us more revelations oh enlightened one! We will buy whatever you're selling.

Good reference, sandbox style gamers do seem to be wandering the wilderness for 40 years trying to find their next big title.

Perhaps one day it will happen........

I think there's a market for a new sandbox style MMORPG, but I can't agree that there's any real evidence that it will accomodate "millions upon millions" served.

Unfortunately, if you are going to build a new MMORPG and ask someone to front you anywhere from $100M - 200M to create it, they're going to want some assurances that you know what you are doing and that there's evidence in the marketplace that reduces the risk of their investment.

Right now, the only real examples to follow are standard theme park MMO's so that's why we keep getting so many variants of basically the same game released back in 2004 (or even earlier if we go back to EQ1)

If a runaway hit in the sandbox space ever happens it's probably going to be a matter more of sh!t luck rather than by intelligent design.

 

 

I sincerely believe that anyone that expects to have WoW's number of players is just delusional. WoW was the introduction to a new style of gaming and I doubt we will see one game gather as many players as WoW has.

 

But who says a good sandbox cant gather 500,000?

 

Anything is possible. And sad fact is - the MMO industry is extremely risky. Any entreprenuer knows that an investment is always going to be risky.

 

The fact that standard themepark MMO's keep on underperforming tells me, as an investor, that they arent what they are cracked up to be. And I am not approaching this as a sandbox lover, I'm approaching this as an investor. As an investor, I would not invest in any themepark title as of this moment.

 

I think with the performance of TOR, its pretty clear.

 

Part of being an entrepreneur is not only examining the risks, but also taking them. Opening a business is always risky.

 

There are always going to be risks. But right now, I would rather fund a sandbox MMO rather than a themepark any day of the week. It makes much more sense.

 

If investors are forcing EA to go batshit crazy over something like a million players what gives you the idea that INVESTORS are going to want to put out 100 million for a game that only garners 500k?!?!?

I keep hearing SWG brought up as an example of a good sandbox but that game had trouble reaching 1 million subs and if I used the opinion of the three friends i got to try the game who all quit within a week the standard reasons for SWg's failures cannot explain why it didn't do too well.

See i think op you make the mistake of assuming because someone is willing to play a video game that they are automatically going to go "all in".  from my experience that just isn't the case at all.

in an earlier post you insinuate that the 11 million or so wow players are simply waiting for something with more depth and in doing this I think you supplant your own desires for the desires of others, if you think stroking an epeen is not a big reason for those people to play these games then you are on the wrong track in my opinion.

  User Deleted
 
OP  9/27/12 8:25:36 AM#67
Originally posted by kevjards
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by Failings
I believe the sandbox formula has always been what MMOs were about. The genre was led astray by WoW's success but finally it seems we're coming out of that infernal cycle.

I've been thinking about that.

 

Its possible that WoW was a sort of necessary evil. It brought many new players into the genre. Unfortunately, these players dont really know what a sandbox is. However, I believe at this point, players are ready "for more" and ready for the genre to evolve into something more, giving players their freedoms back.

WoW was the training wheels. Now, we're ready for the real deal.

this..i have heard the term sandbox floating around,can someone please explain the difference between lets say conan and a sandbox mmo please...i would be very greatful

 

These are elements that are generally considered "sandboxy"

 

+ Classless system/Skill based (think TES Skyrim and Oblivion)

+ Open world

+ Player creation of items (crafting)

+ Player Housing and furnishing

+ Focus on big, epic quests rather than smaller ones

+ Player cities

+ Harsher death penalty

+ Guild political control > conquering other cities

+ Open economy

+ Meaningful PvP

+ Strong Roleplaying foundation

+ Generally more deeper gameplay, with the theme of being what you want to be, then being in a pre-defined role.

+ A focus on player freedom

 

 

Feel free to add to the list :)

 

 

  RefMinor

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 3542

Hipster

9/27/12 8:26:25 AM#68
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Ghost12

"If there are no good MMOs, people will play something else. "

Now that is faulty logic. If there are no good MMOs, then those players will not play anymore MMOs (Or just stick to playing WoW) The "other games" do not factor into the equation here. We're talking about MMOs, not the entire game market.

No, it is perfectly logical. We've been watching it happen for four years or so, as MMO gamers have been shifting more of their gaming time to MOBAs, Action RPGs, MMOFPS/RTS, mobile games, and singleplayer RPGs.

 

But thats not the point.

 

If a product is underperforming, and if your customer base is unhappy with it , you improve the product. Not sit back and watch them move on to other things.

You are forgetting some people would rather see nothing rather than a sandbox game be produced.

  User Deleted
9/27/12 8:31:03 AM#69
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Ghost12

 

 

 

You are forgetting some people would rather see nothing rather than a sandbox game be produced.

A few posters do indeed give that impression.

  Thane

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/14/03
Posts: 1866

I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.

9/27/12 8:35:03 AM#70

seriously, you guys just keep crying for sandboxes, because you never actually played one.

thers is like one sandbox mmo out there atm. and this one has an active player ammount of 400k.

 

why not play eve online when you like sandboxes that much??

the best part is that you actually didnt even mention the only sandbox out there atm. nuff said. thx for your wall of text tho. cba to read it all.

"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12113

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

9/27/12 8:36:01 AM#71
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Ghost12

"If there are no good MMOs, people will play something else. "

Now that is faulty logic. If there are no good MMOs, then those players will not play anymore MMOs (Or just stick to playing WoW) The "other games" do not factor into the equation here. We're talking about MMOs, not the entire game market.

No, it is perfectly logical. We've been watching it happen for four years or so, as MMO gamers have been shifting more of their gaming time to MOBAs, Action RPGs, MMOFPS/RTS, mobile games, and singleplayer RPGs.

But thats not the point.

If a product is underperforming, and if your customer base is unhappy with it , you improve the product. Not sit back and watch them move on to other things.

 

Yes, you 'work in business' but I don't think you get this one. This isn't toilet paper, it's the entertainment industry, although with some of the releases in the past few years one might think it actually is the former.

People want to be entertained, and most people don't say "I want to play an MMO" rather they say "I want a game with [list of features]." If another game genre or platform offers those features they will migrate to it. It is as simple as that.

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  User Deleted
 
OP  9/27/12 8:37:36 AM#72
Originally posted by raistlinm
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Quirhid

Look, another MMO Moses. Please tell us more revelations oh enlightened one! We will buy whatever you're selling.

Good reference, sandbox style gamers do seem to be wandering the wilderness for 40 years trying to find their next big title.

Perhaps one day it will happen........

I think there's a market for a new sandbox style MMORPG, but I can't agree that there's any real evidence that it will accomodate "millions upon millions" served.

Unfortunately, if you are going to build a new MMORPG and ask someone to front you anywhere from $100M - 200M to create it, they're going to want some assurances that you know what you are doing and that there's evidence in the marketplace that reduces the risk of their investment.

Right now, the only real examples to follow are standard theme park MMO's so that's why we keep getting so many variants of basically the same game released back in 2004 (or even earlier if we go back to EQ1)

If a runaway hit in the sandbox space ever happens it's probably going to be a matter more of sh!t luck rather than by intelligent design.

 

 

I sincerely believe that anyone that expects to have WoW's number of players is just delusional. WoW was the introduction to a new style of gaming and I doubt we will see one game gather as many players as WoW has.

 

But who says a good sandbox cant gather 500,000?

 

Anything is possible. And sad fact is - the MMO industry is extremely risky. Any entreprenuer knows that an investment is always going to be risky.

 

The fact that standard themepark MMO's keep on underperforming tells me, as an investor, that they arent what they are cracked up to be. And I am not approaching this as a sandbox lover, I'm approaching this as an investor. As an investor, I would not invest in any themepark title as of this moment.

 

I think with the performance of TOR, its pretty clear.

 

Part of being an entrepreneur is not only examining the risks, but also taking them. Opening a business is always risky.

 

There are always going to be risks. But right now, I would rather fund a sandbox MMO rather than a themepark any day of the week. It makes much more sense.

 

If investors are forcing EA to go batshit crazy over something like a million players what gives you the idea that INVESTORS are going to want to put out 100 million for a game that only garners 500k?!?!?

I keep hearing SWG brought up as an example of a good sandbox but that game had trouble reaching 1 million subs and if I used the opinion of the three friends i got to try the game who all quit within a week the standard reasons for SWg's failures cannot explain why it didn't do too well.

See i think op you make the mistake of assuming because someone is willing to play a video game that they are automatically going to go "all in".  from my experience that just isn't the case at all.

in an earlier post you insinuate that the 11 million or so wow players are simply waiting for something with more depth and in doing this I think you supplant your own desires for the desires of others, if you think stroking an epeen is not a big reason for those people to play these games then you are on the wrong track in my opinion.

 

First of all, SWG was made before WoW came out. SWG was made in 2003, nearly a decade ago. We are in a very different age now where everyone except their grandmother uses a computer.

 

I've read the reviews on TOR, GW2 etc. These arent just my desires. Other players feel this way too. Its what THEY said.

 

Perhaps investors do not have to invest 100k in their next game?

 

Either way, if you are an investor you are there to take risks. Part of being an entreprenuer is backing innovative products. These Themeparks arent innovative and its showing, and the playerbase is NOT responding favorbly to it.  Maybe lukewarm at best.

 

So maybe its time for a change?

 

Or they can keep on releasing these titles with mediocre results.

  Mithrandolir

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/28/05
Posts: 1694

Our doubts are traitors and make us lose the good we oft' might win, by fearing to attempt

9/27/12 8:41:19 AM#73

I prefer sandbox games. I love minecraft as a non-mmo, but I also love mmo's like UO, Xsyon, DFO, ATiTD, etc...

I didn't like WoW very much, and hated EQ2 (loved EQ1 though).

There have been some themeparks in the past that I did thoroughly enjoy for years, EQ1, DAoC, AC1 to name a few.

These days, the only modern (post DAoC) themeparks that I really like are rift and GW2. I have tried everything else pretty much and just find the modern themepark to be not to my liking.

So although I play and love GW2 and will certainly revisit rift for a bit as a secondary mmo once the expansion launches, I would also love to see more effort go into sandboxes as well.

So count be as a "both" I guess.

 

 

 

 

  Ausare

Novice Member

Joined: 3/23/11
Posts: 870

9/27/12 8:41:56 AM#74
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Ghost12

"If there are no good MMOs, people will play something else. "

Now that is faulty logic. If there are no good MMOs, then those players will not play anymore MMOs (Or just stick to playing WoW) The "other games" do not factor into the equation here. We're talking about MMOs, not the entire game market.

No, it is perfectly logical. We've been watching it happen for four years or so, as MMO gamers have been shifting more of their gaming time to MOBAs, Action RPGs, MMOFPS/RTS, mobile games, and singleplayer RPGs.

But thats not the point.

If a product is underperforming, and if your customer base is unhappy with it , you improve the product. Not sit back and watch them move on to other things.

 

Yes, you 'work in business' but I don't think you get this one. This isn't toilet paper, it's the entertainment industry, although with some of the releases in the past few years one might think it actually is the former.

People want to be entertained, and most people don't say "I want to play an MMO" rather they say "I want a game with [list of features]." If another game genre or platform offers those features they will migrate to it. It is as simple as that.

 

there is something in those games you list that most features people want in sandboxes do not have....protection of invested time in your game.  FPS you might lose a round, but nothing else and rts the same.  Single player you can always go back to a previous save.  The general sandbox that most want does not appeal to the majority.  Unless you are telling me that the majority of the Sandbox whiners want a PvE based game with controlled PvP?  Then yes I think that kind of sandbox will take off, but the sandbox whiners will come out complaining it is carebear. 

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

9/27/12 8:42:27 AM#75

And this, friends, is how to construct a perfectly loaded poll.

But even given that we agree completely with the op that NOW IS THE TIME!  Rushing your brand new on-demand mmo into production today!!!! gets you--five more years to wait before it's done.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12113

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

9/27/12 8:45:45 AM#76
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by kevjards
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by Failings
I believe the sandbox formula has always been what MMOs were about. The genre was led astray by WoW's success but finally it seems we're coming out of that infernal cycle.

I've been thinking about that.

 

Its possible that WoW was a sort of necessary evil. It brought many new players into the genre. Unfortunately, these players dont really know what a sandbox is. However, I believe at this point, players are ready "for more" and ready for the genre to evolve into something more, giving players their freedoms back.

WoW was the training wheels. Now, we're ready for the real deal.

this..i have heard the term sandbox floating around,can someone please explain the difference between lets say conan and a sandbox mmo please...i would be very greatful

 

These are elements that are generally considered "sandboxy"

 

+ Classless system/Skill based (think TES Skyrim and Oblivion)

+ Open world

+ Player creation of items (crafting)

+ Player Housing and furnishing

+ Focus on big, epic quests rather than smaller ones

+ Player cities

+ Harsher death penalty

+ Guild political control > conquering other cities

+ Open economy

+ Meaningful PvP

+ Strong Roleplaying foundation

+ Generally more deeper gameplay, with the theme of being what you want to be, then being in a pre-defined role.

+ A focus on player freedom

Feel free to add to the list :)

 

And so the thread ends and a frightening new one rises from its ashes.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  User Deleted
 
OP  9/27/12 8:46:40 AM#77
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Ghost12

"If there are no good MMOs, people will play something else. "

Now that is faulty logic. If there are no good MMOs, then those players will not play anymore MMOs (Or just stick to playing WoW) The "other games" do not factor into the equation here. We're talking about MMOs, not the entire game market.

No, it is perfectly logical. We've been watching it happen for four years or so, as MMO gamers have been shifting more of their gaming time to MOBAs, Action RPGs, MMOFPS/RTS, mobile games, and singleplayer RPGs.

But thats not the point.

If a product is underperforming, and if your customer base is unhappy with it , you improve the product. Not sit back and watch them move on to other things.

 

Yes, you 'work in business' but I don't think you get this one. This isn't toilet paper, it's the entertainment industry, although with some of the releases in the past few years one might think it actually is the former.

People want to be entertained, and most people don't say "I want to play an MMO" rather they say "I want a game with [list of features]." If another game genre or platform offers those features they will migrate to it. It is as simple as that.

 

 

And?

 

So what? They will migrate to it? Thats enlightening...(not)?

 

That doesnt in any way solve the problem of a customer not responding to your product. If these games dont generate interest, then perhaps its time to change the content in that game?

Its not that complicated.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12113

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

9/27/12 8:46:46 AM#78
Originally posted by Icewhite

And this, friends, is how to construct a perfectly loaded poll.

But even given that we agree completely with the op that NOW IS THE TIME!  Rushing your brand new on-demand mmo into production today gets you--five more years to wait before it's done.

Why five years? It's just two lines of code. Boom.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

9/27/12 8:48:34 AM#79
Originally posted by Loktofeit

Why five years? It's just two lines of code. Boom.

10 print 'hello world'

20 goto 10

 

There ya go.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Bob_Blawblaw

Novice Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 1314

9/27/12 8:49:33 AM#80
Originally posted by Indrome

Stop shouting and relax. Everything returns eventually.

Heartedly agree with the OP and this post. The pendulum will swing back to Sandboxes. Hopefully sooner than later.

 

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