Everything depends what your 'fun' in game is. 

Small example:

1. Some people hate spending time on progressing their character because it takes them out of 'actually playing and having fun'

2. Some people hate if game have little, fast or no progression because progression is sizeable part of their fun and taking it out of the game makes game less fun,

That is just one of divides. There is possiblity of endlessly dividing into subcategories and creating new ones.

Argument about 'being trained into' is silly and could be reused for any type of game.  In example "are MMO players trained into play for twitch..."  or "are MMO players trained into play for rankings" or "are MMO players trained to play for cosmetic / visual progression" and so on and so on can be very long list.

Sorry but diffrent people are having fun from diffrent acitivies and fun is subjective thus any game can be ridiculed by anyone - just depend what author of 'ridiculing' is finding so called 'fun'.

Originally posted by VirusDancer

Originally posted by Johnie-Marz

Being "Trained" for progression isn't the problem.

The problem is leveling in games has become so fast that you have way too much time between max level and the next expansion. The game has to give players something to do which leads to gear progression.

EVE is probably the only game that does it right. Even if you played for ten years you still wouldn't max out your skills. You are always progressing so you just play the game.

And this is basically the difference between character/player progression and gear progression.  Unfortunately, it appears the masses want the new shiny items rather than any actual progression.

It's like the following - if I may...

• Tom (playing Game X):  Man, we finally UberMegaBoss.
• Jerry (playing Game Y):  Cool, what'd you get?
• Tom:  What?
• Jerry:  What'd you get for beating that boss?
• Tom:  Um, we beat the boss.  It was hard, but we finally beat him.
• Jerry:  Yeah, but what kind of loot did you get?
• Tom:  Loot?
• Jerry:  Yeah, loot?  What did you get?
• Tom:  Some gold, I guess.
• Jerry:  What?  What epics did you get?
• Tom:  Epics?
• Jerry:  Yeah, for killing the boss.  What epic loot did you get?  How are you going to beat the next boss?
• Tom:  Didn't get any loot like that.  Don't need anything like that to fight the next boss.
• Jerry:  What?
• Tom:  We just need to be better.  We need to apply what we've learned so far, work hard as a team, and with practice we'll be able to take down whatever boss we face next.
• Jerry:  But - you need loot - you need epics.  Where's the progression?
• Tom:  I just told you - we get better the more we play.
• Jerry:  I don't understand...
• Tom:  I'm seeing that....

It's like the threads where folks have had issues with the lack of the Trinity in a few recent games - the lack of gear progression would blow their minds...meh.

 

I still think CCP should have made a "Fantasy" EVE as well... in the past, I've called it Shadowbane 2.0... but oh well.

Well said sir.

It seems like there is a segment of gamers that may have forgotten what a game is.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Is gladiator some wow thing?

If so lol, no. I haven't played wow for 7 years, and I mostly pveed in it anyway because its pvp is shit.

These wow guys aren't hardcore anyway (neither are gw2 players). Hardcore pvpers are playing things like.

Sc2
Sf4
Cs
Tf2
Eve
Df

Etc..

Can not believe you put Eve in that list.  They are some of the worst PvP'ers.  But if you are making a list of the best gankers then I give you an A.

Originally posted by ViperHoundz

Are MMO players trained to play for progression rather than for enjoyment?

Half of the MMO players in the world today got their MMO start in a single title.

What do you think?

Trained I think is the wrong word. Society and life in general has humanity looking for the "next best thing." In an online MMO you are free to be exactly you. What you say...how you handle yourself...the whole bit. So it really shows.

So you look into these games and realize what people really do and how they really act and you being to learn something.

In my mind the lack of "gear progression" in this game..the no "gold star at the end of the day" will make it fail in the long term. Some sort of character progression needs to happen, that or create a real real "fun" aspect to stay there. This game just doesn't have it  yet. However, it still is a great game all around.

Was just talking about this with a friend last night. I'd say yes, mmo players have been trained for progression during the past 10 years. It has raised a "gaming generation" of players to expect linear progression and an endgame that includes raiding. And if those things are not included in an mmo today (or if they are not apparent), then the game is "fail".

If we want to see sandboxes, we will need to retrain mmo players on how to think for themselves; how to use their imaginations, how to generate their own content and how to create their own fun rather than accept what a developer hands to them.

Originally posted by VirusDancer

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Why can't it be that MMO games enjoy progressing? I know I do.  I like seeing my character get stronger and better. 

There's a difference between gear progression and character progression though.

My char earns some XP, improves his stats... my character has gotten stronger and better.

My char finds a shiny sword... my character has not gotten stronger nor better.  He's got a new shiny sword.  It may improve his stats, but without that sword - he's the same ol' character.

That gear provides such a bonus to stats...that it is a form of progression...is mind boggling to some.

Now doubt there are plenty that like that - that's fine.  Not every game needs to be that way though.  Some folks would like actual character progression...

Yes there is a bit of a difference (IMO not significant) between progression through gear and progression through stats.  However in the the I my character is still that much better because of the gear or stats.  People like progression thats what it comes down.  They care less about how that progression comes and more about just are they getting stronger.

I started archery last year, started with a long bow, then moved to a recurve. The recurve provides more power with less weight.  It was a progression.  I have debated on getting a compound, signficantly more power, much less weight, better stabilizers and actual sights for varying distances.  That would be gear progression and if I was interested in hunting I would probably go for it because it would improve my shots significantly.  However between one day and the next I haven't improved, my gear has and as a result the results themselves are better. 

I"m not really interested in the compound though, seems like cheating.  :)

We just like progression. 

It has nothing to do with MMOs, games are about progression and winning.

That is why achievements are such a powerful tool to keep people playing, it gives them a direct tracker on how much they are progressing.

Even in a game like Second Life, you are progressing by exploring the world, increasing the number of friends, buying land, buying items to fill the land.

Every game is progression on some level. An MMO without levels would still have progression through either how many dungeons you've done, what gear you've gotten, how many things you've killed, how much you've explored etc.

Most players these days are trained to only care about progression. Sometimes a popular game comes out that is not based on progression. Minecraft and Second life come to mind. Few people actually want a MMO with zero progression.

Progression is not the real issue though. The real problem is power creep because it make the experience overall feel very disposable. That is why people will go through a game like SWTOR and quit in a month where in the past players would need years to see and do everything in SWG. Back in the day you were not given everything instantly and few players used the same progression. In the original EverQuest rare loot was actually rare and the Epics were actually Epic that took months to aquire. Modern MMOs pretty much give the player the whole thing up front which the content locusts just devour and move on the next MMO.

Originally posted by elocke

Originally posted by Johnie-Marz

Being "Trained" for progression isn't the problem.

The problem is leveling in games has become so fast that you have way too much time between max level and the next expansion. The game has to give players something to do which leads to gear progression.

EVE is probably the only game that does it right. Even if you played for ten years you still wouldn't max out your skills. You are always progressing so you just play the game.

Not just Eve. Some older MMOs did it right too and is why many want some reiteration of them to come back.  For me, it was FFXI and how it handled progression.  It's changed now, as levels are really easy to get, but before they made all those changes, I could play that game for years and still never see everything or finish everything I wanted to and this was good. 

What is with these loaded thread titles?  Progression isn't a negative and if anything, it's the main reason I even play MMORPGs or sRPGs or games with similar mechanics.  Not alone, sure, but without a sense of progression, I sure wouldn't be as drawn to the game.  I can apply this to FPS, RTS, Racing etc. 

I'm sure you have seen the term "Skinner box" thrown around on the forums here. I think the difference between the progression you say is not negative vs the subject of the thread is self motivation vs unintended psychological conditioning. At least I hope it was unintentional.

Originally posted by Yamota
No. RPG's are about progression. Always have and hopefully always will be. Even when I was playing pen and paper RPG, the progression of your character was a central activity.

Was it? Maybe your DM was super easy on you then. When I played D&D our characters would die all the time and we would have to roll a new one. Pretty sure we played just to get together and have some good times.

progression *is* enjoyment. They are not mutually exclusive.

I am playing BL2 now .. i enjoy shooting/killing stuff, and i enjoy leveling up becoming more powerful.

Originally posted by VirusDancer

Um, I did not say "People should be happy that there are multiple types of MMOs to play now, but as you can see, they aren't"

Yeah i made a mistake about the who made the reply. Sorry for that.

Since you cannot even follow who said what, I honestly am not suprised that you cannot follow what I've bene saying.  Even though it's the simplest thing to grasp... not everybody wants the same thing.  You're obviously not happy with where the majority of the games have gone.  In order for those games to appeal to you, they would need to create an additional copy of the game - tada, doubling.  Two people want different things, then you need two different games.  You add a third person that might want some of what the first does and some of what the second does, you're looking at a third game - tada, doubling plus.

I understand very well but still this is off topic. You are going way to far with your anaolgy, We are talking about a core feature in mmorpg, the progression. Not every little features someone want or doesnt. mmo are made for a big crowd of gamer so yeah they can have everything someone want, we can live with that but what you seem to dont understand is that we are talking about a core feature. Progression

And again all major mmo these day has taken the same path for this perticular core feature, progression. The easy and fast way.. and this is a fact. All i say is there is a lot of gamers who want the other path, still we dont have it.

That you could point out where certain games are a certain  and then say you want something else...without being able to comprehend that it would require two games to satisfy both yourself and those that like it the way it is...is mind boggling.

That funny cause there i could reverse the question. Why cant you comprehend that there is way more than 2 games out there, but there where all made for 1 type of games. Where are the other games for the other type of gamers. Yeah that mind boggling...

It's very unlikely that there's going to be a perfect game for anybody - people go with what come's the closest.  If there's nothing close enough, then they will take a break from the genre.  While McDonald's might not be a person's first choice for chicken, if it's on the way home and the chicken place is out of the way - they may just make that compromise.  Now if they're looking to get a steak, mashed potatoes, and a beer - they're likely to go somewhere else.

Jesus.. Mcdonald and chickens now...

That exaclty what is happening. A lots of gamers try a mmo, they like it but after 1 month there is nothing more to do for them so they left and this is part of the OP. Why they left?

Originally posted by Silok

That exaclty what is happening. A lots of gamers try a mmo, they like it but after 1 month there is nothing more to do for them so they left and this is part of the OP. Why they left?

There are other games out there, and people like new experiences?

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Silok

That exaclty what is happening. A lots of gamers try a mmo, they like it but after 1 month there is nothing more to do for them so they left and this is part of the OP. Why they left?

There are other games out there, and people like new experiences?

Seriously you skipped all the threads i write and you answer the last sentence out of context?

Anyway yes there are people who left to try new games, but what about those who left because there is nothing to keep them playing.

If i want to try new games, i can but that doesnt mean i have to left an mmo, if of course that mmo can retain my interest more than 1 month.

Originally posted by Silok

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Silok

That exaclty what is happening. A lots of gamers try a mmo, they like it but after 1 month there is nothing more to do for them so they left and this is part of the OP. Why they left?

There are other games out there, and people like new experiences?

Seriously you skipped all the threads i write and you answer the last sentence out of context?

Anyway yes there are people who left to try new games, but what about those who left because there is nothing to keep them playing.

If i want to try new games, i can but that doesnt mean i have to left an mmo, if of course that mmo can retain my interest more than 1 month.

Sure .. but people only have so many hours to play games. If people play more and more new games, at some point there will be no time for a old MMO.

it is really about choosing what experience you want, in the limit time you have. Movies, books, tv, games all compete for your time. So MMOs don't have to run out of content before someone quit.