Why is it an either/or.  Progression is generally a fact or life, we are trained almost from birth to try and be better.  Games are also about enjoyment.

But sometimes they are the same.

Why can't it be that MMO games enjoy progressing? I know I do.  I like seeing my character get stronger and better. 

So I got lvl 80 in GW2 today and had over 1000 achievement points. I was over ten lvls for going back to my main quest storyline and had over 70% map explored. I also have a couple alts in the 20s. I know folks who rushed to lvls 70-80 obtaining half as many points.

Lots of people playing mmo(rpgs) are seeking continual character progression. They may have the rush to end game mentality and then believe the game opens up from there. These players may skip the storyline dialogue,  focus on combat - instead of alternate methods of experience - exploring, collecting, crafting, jump puzzles, or just enjoying the game with an alt. Pretty much folks like to be better than everyone else.

Exploring the game and just doing all the various DEs is good for me.

Since folks are making analogies, I'll go with the Karate belt progression. Start learning Karate as a small kid, and in most places you'll be accumulating all these belts (oh progression) rather fast. Making black belts who posess minimal skill and have hardly received the strength and conditioning to do anything. Why is this? Because the kid needs to feel like he/she is achieving a noticeable, for this purpose visual, gear advancement. Otherwise they are going to quit and find another instructor / gym where you can advance at such a rate. Instead of learning such karate skills for numerous other reasons that all may be considered progression, the kid learns it to obtain a belt/status/title that serves as distinguishing him/her amongst others. Gotta get the best gear :)

So it all really ends up being a discussion on what type of progression is being advanced, gear based (and not enjoying the rest of the game) or something like map exploration and enjoying more of the game in GW2.

Originally posted by cheyane
It is genetically coded into us or we will die out as a species. We need it from the day we are born we are always striving to become better. Those of us who don't fail at life I am afraid. Game goals reflect this and those that do not probably will find it harder to keep people and it is going to be super hard to change that which we need as a species to continue to domineer over others on this planet.

Pretty much explains why the world is so f*cked up, but I won't go into that now :)

Originally posted by Aelious
An analogy came to me just reading the title.

Pudding can be eaten with a spoon or a fork. If you ate pudding with a fork your whole life why would you suddenly switch to a spoon if a fork still works just fine?

Mmmm pudding...

LMAO,because forks are harder to clean?You can poke your lip with a fork but a spoon is safe :)

When you make a switch it shows you might be advancing and getting smarter.IMagine if we still used paper cups for telephones?I would hate to have to crank start my car every morning.I am too lazy to toss my remote for a hand dial that i have to get up out of my chair to turn.I think i like my cable now,rabbit ears no thanks.

mmm banana pudding :D

Kidding aside,i am not trained for anything,i play a game the way i want to or not at all.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Why can't it be that MMO games enjoy progressing? I know I do.  I like seeing my character get stronger and better. 

There's a difference between gear progression and character progression though.

My char earns some XP, improves his stats... my character has gotten stronger and better.

My char finds a shiny sword... my character has not gotten stronger nor better.  He's got a new shiny sword.  It may improve his stats, but without that sword - he's the same ol' character.

That gear provides such a bonus to stats...that it is a form of progression...is mind boggling to some.

Now doubt there are plenty that like that - that's fine.  Not every game needs to be that way though.  Some folks would like actual character progression...

Originally posted by Nitth

 

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Originally posted by ViperHoundz
Are MMO players trained to play for progression rather than for enjoyment?

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Lets take a step back, If you played and enjoyed Rpg's prior to switching to mmorpgs then you would appreciate how much progression and stat building is staple.

However, It's my belief that most people that want 'fun casual games' didn't, or don't like rpg's in the first place.

Boom! Headshot!  You've nailed it completely.  They certainly didn't care for the early models that were put forth, and once Blizzard hit on the magic formula to appeal to a huge playerbase most Developers have been continually refining their products to make them ever more casual with GW2 being the ultimate by eliminating meaningful progression (in terms of power) at end game from the equation.

They did the same thing in the first game, and quickly realized that 20 levels was not enough of a progression curve, a large segement of the market quickly discarded the title because of the lack of it.  Hence they added more of it back in for the 2nd (recall fans of the 1st game actually bemoaned this) to try and appeal to the more progression focused player.

RPG's and by extension MMORPG's are by their very nature  all about progression at their core, remove it and you've got some other sort of game, I like to call them MMOAPG's (action or adventure) playing games, more like Mist rather than Balders Gate. I won't compromise on this point, regardless how many people try to redefine the genre.

To bastardize a favorite movie quote.

"I will not sacrifice the MMORPG. We've made too many compromises already; too many retreats. They invade our space and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds and we fall back. Not again. The line must be drawn here! This far, no further! And *I* will make them pay for what they've done." 

With apologies to Jean Luc Picard......

The whole "character progression vs fun" dichotomy is ridiculous. It's simply an implicit criticism of character progression. How about:

Originally posted by Johnie-Marz

Being "Trained" for progression isn't the problem.

The problem is leveling in games has become so fast that you have way too much time between max level and the next expansion. The game has to give players something to do which leads to gear progression.

EVE is probably the only game that does it right. Even if you played for ten years you still wouldn't max out your skills. You are always progressing so you just play the game.

Not just Eve. Some older MMOs did it right too and is why many want some reiteration of them to come back.  For me, it was FFXI and how it handled progression.  It's changed now, as levels are really easy to get, but before they made all those changes, I could play that game for years and still never see everything or finish everything I wanted to and this was good. 

What is with these loaded thread titles?  Progression isn't a negative and if anything, it's the main reason I even play MMORPGs or sRPGs or games with similar mechanics.  Not alone, sure, but without a sense of progression, I sure wouldn't be as drawn to the game.  I can apply this to FPS, RTS, Racing etc. 

OP cmon. 

Since the early days of pen and paper rpgs were founded on progression.. wtf? Yeah we played D&D and the likes for fun, but we wanted to progress our character. We wanted levels, skills, and gear.... wtf? sorry.. it's late here. 

pen and paper gave birth to mmorpgs. in case you did not know /roll, or RNG (Random Number Gernerator/tion) they come form 1d3s 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 1d10, 1d12s......1d100s. Those are die, that's plural for dice just incase. 

This is like asking fellow football players "Do you think we are trained to gain yards?" 

sorry for the repost, but this thread is just amazing.

I am embarassed to admit it but yeah... I lost some of my motivation to play GW2 as soon as I hit 80... now dont get me wrong, I am still playing, exploring, pvping and will also create some alts but I am pretty sure I've seen the majority of the content and now when I hit 80 it doesn't feel the same even though I am still technically gaining skills.

Same happened with SWTOR... I will be more excited once they raise the cap...

Originally posted by VirusDancer

Originally posted by nsignific

Progression in those terms is a fact of life. You grow, you learn, you aspire to new, better things and ideas.

I guress there's also people who sit on the couch all day and watch TV and I suppose they need a game to play as well.

It's nice that the MMO market caters to everyone now that we have GW2.

Oh my, I do make a good point, even if I do say so myself ;)

Yes, there are people that know what's important in life and those that stand in line waiting for a new iPhone... yep, life is full of those examples of people chasing the shiny.  I'm not sure I'd say they're actually aspiring to anything though...

Yeah, that was a really messed up way of looking at things from nsign there - couch potatoes play games with out progression, but people who aspire to new and better things grind boars in MMOs.

Holy EQ flagellates, batman. The rationalization is strong in that one.  :(

It's quite simple really. In traditional theme parks, the end justifies the means. You grind to get what you wanted. GW2 uses a different formula. The means justifies the end. In GW2, The means is the end. Just how successful this was is largely subjective. Many think it's very successful, many do not. I think the overall problem and GW2's biggest challenge in this are the limits of modern technology and exactly what we can do with AI. Many feel that no matter how fun the activity initially is, if you have to keep doing it over and over, it loses that fun factor. And there is no way to make an MMO yet that doesn't revolve around repetition. GW2 took it as far as it can go, but for many, it wasn't enough.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
The irony being, those who are couch potatoes in real life are the ones who succeed most in wow / EQ type mmos.

Gw2 the mmo where people who work for a living don't have to play second fiddle to unemployed layabouts.

I am 100% convinced. GW2 players are the people who were upset that Gladiators had better gear, and people who feel that more time invested should mean nothing.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Yep I feel playing 12 hours a day shouldn't give you any extra advantages over the guy that plays 4 hours a day other than have.g more experience.

I would like mmos to bill for in game time rather than monthly sub, sp the majority aren't subsidizing the hardcore and possibly to give these guys a kick up the arse to go out and get a real job.

I don't know what gladiator is, was that some Roman mmo?

Envy... I don't like it when you work harder/longer and get more than me. 

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Originally posted by ShakyMo
Yep I feel playing 12 hours a day shouldn't give you any extra advantages over the guy that plays 4 hours a day other than have.g more experience.I would like mmos to bill for in game time rather than monthly sub, sp the majority aren't subsidizing the hardcore and possibly to give these guys a kick up the arse to go out and get a real job.I don't know what gladiator is, was that some Roman mmo?

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Not for nothing, But someone who achieved Gladiator, probably picked up a bit of skill along the way, where as the casual PVPer, has casual PVP skills.
The Galdiator is committed to PVP where the casual PVPer isn't

Move them both to GW2. Who's gonna win? This "They only win because they have better gear" argument is only looking at one side.