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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » Would this game have been better with a trinity? [Poll]

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49 posts found
  Homitu

Novice Member

Joined: 10/01/09
Posts: 2045

9/27/12 2:26:07 AM#21

Where I personally stand right now:

Tanking

I'd like to see some defensive oriented specs get 3 second "taunts," kind of the like Rammus or Shen in League of Legends, but no permanent aggro holding mechanic.  This would allow players to relish the tanky aggro holding mechanic to feel like they have a place in GW2 (and yes, this is a major deterrent for some people; and no, the appropriate response isn't just "well they should go play another game then.)  This would fit perfectly within GW2's combat system.  I'm aware there are several pull-target-to-you spells, but half the mobs you would most want to use these on are immune.  I don't think a traditional hard (brief) taunt would be out of place.

Control

I'd like to see some harder CC, the kind that was a necessity during vanilla WoW.  This would allow for more strategic trash pulls and give players a greater sense of control over what's happening.  The point wouldn't be to make CC, and therefore players, stronger or for this to be a nerf to dungeons, but to allow for more complex fights, to be able to strategically reduce the chaos to a point slightly below what exists now amidst what would otherwise be even more potential chaos than there is now.  This would actually increase the difficulty, raise the skill bar a little, and greatly reduce the redundancy of many of the pulls in between bosses--which I will admit tend to be few.  Both of my first 2 suggestions aim at placing a bit more control in the hands of the players, because the sum of current control (slows, snares, knockbacks) = endless kiting.  I think kiting is a great mechanic, but right now it's pretty much the sole technique available, and it does begin to feel redundant.  

Healing

I'm pretty fine with healing right now.  I play a power/toughness/healing power support based staff elementalist, and I can actually feel the effect I'm having on my group sustainability (though barely compared to healing classes in most MMOs--I can't always tell whether their health is going up as a result of my heals or their own devices).  But I love that I actively DPS and CC in the mix.  To not do so would be an utter waste 80% of my skills and time.  I would never want to trade that for gameplay where I must stand back and heal nonstop, because if I do stop, someone dies, ensuring that I never can effectively get involved in damage or control.   

General assessment

After playing and clearing about 20 explorable modes, 3 things have become apparent to me.  First, there's something thrilling about the chaos and perpetual state of panic involved in GW2's combat.  Dodge rolling, casting while moving, resurrecting downed players, and yes, the chaos, all combine to create an exciting combat atmosphere.  Second, the chaos can lead to a feeling of lack of control; and sometimes, even after you pull through and emerge victorious, you can't always identify what it was that made you succeed.  The player is left feeling only vaguely responsible for winning, which is less than ideal.  Third, not having the trinity seems to have noticeably restricted the types of possible encounters.  While I couldn't accurately call GW2 encounters "tank and spank," I would say that more than a good handfull of fights can be classified as "kite, dodge and spank."  But actually yes, there are in fact some bosses that are so weak and seemingly broken that they do become good ol' fashion tank 'n spank.  

  timeraider

Novice Member

Joined: 3/20/11
Posts: 554

9/27/12 3:39:14 AM#22
nope, trinity is .. mostly .. gone from gw2 and in my opinion for the best
  dariuszp

Novice Member

Joined: 1/19/12
Posts: 187

9/27/12 3:49:01 AM#23
Originally posted by Size-Twelve

Just curious. If GW2 was the same game it is now, but you added a trinity model to the combat system (tank, healer, DPS), would it be a better game in your opinion?

Only for retards that need to be told what to do. For everyone else it should be fine since you can pick up any role you want.

 

People just need to remember two things:

1. Tank in this game is not a punching bag that stand between monsters and get hit over and over while healer heal him. You must do active tanking. So take aggro, put up all shields, css and whatever else you have, kit a little and dodge. So it's not something for retards because their idea of tanking is to stay still, taunt mobs and let healer heal him.

2. Healers are not freaking miracle makers that can heal instantly a guy who just got hit by a broadsword size of small building. You can help but you are not someone who can keep alive entire team while eating snacks and drinking coffe. 

  Kanubis

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 112

9/27/12 3:55:19 AM#24

The Trinity exists, just with all elements within each character and the inability to stick to one all the time. Once you start balancing your ability to kill, control and grant the right boons it feels quite natural. Oh, and only evade on the big attacks instead of blowing on every little hit. 

Although like that guy further up the page, while I'd opposed to pure tanks I wouldn't say no to snap taunts that can attract the enemy for a very brief period - enough to allow the player they were targeting a second ago to reposition or get a couple of ticks of endurance so they can dodge again. So not an actual tanking mechanic as much as a control mechanic. 

  Raekon

Novice Member

Joined: 3/05/04
Posts: 552

9/27/12 4:05:38 AM#25
No trinity and never again.
  samvenice

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/11
Posts: 96

9/27/12 4:35:21 AM#26

Yeah I love the lack of trinity.

It's the best innovation in the gaming industry, and the best innovation ever (second only to Sarcastaball).

 

  MikeJezZ

Novice Member

Joined: 7/08/04
Posts: 1199

Only in death, does duty end.

9/27/12 4:37:47 AM#27

The game has Trinity.

 

Move along people. Nothing to see here.

Playing ATM: Elder Scrolls Online, Diablo 3
MMO's shelted: Check my mmorpg profile
KICKSTARTED: Camelot Unchained. (250 USD)

  JoeyMMO

Novice Member

Joined: 10/09/11
Posts: 1334

To busy playing GW2 to post much around here... *shrug*

9/27/12 4:49:30 AM#28
OMG, LF Tank, LF Healer, again? No Sir! Never again, Sir! Better to quit MMO's if it's all Trinity Sir!

  Yamota

Elite Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6704

Gaming should be about fun, not gender equality.

9/27/12 4:53:06 AM#29
I am not a fan of the trinity system but it feels better than whatever is in GW 2 which seems focused on everyone doing DPS with a sprinkle of utility/heal on the side.
  MikeJezZ

Novice Member

Joined: 7/08/04
Posts: 1199

Only in death, does duty end.

9/27/12 4:59:10 AM#30

Is it only me who sees Guardian as a tank/supporter and not actually DPSer?

 

Or elementalist as being a healer? Or at least capable of doing so

Playing ATM: Elder Scrolls Online, Diablo 3
MMO's shelted: Check my mmorpg profile
KICKSTARTED: Camelot Unchained. (250 USD)

  dariuszp

Novice Member

Joined: 1/19/12
Posts: 187

9/27/12 5:18:07 AM#31
Originally posted by MikeJezZ

Is it only me who sees Guardian as a tank/supporter and not actually DPSer?

 

Or elementalist as being a healer? Or at least capable of doing so

Only you :P Yes, guardian have many defensive abilities. Hammer allow you to keep in check players/npc for 5 seconds and deal huge amount of damage or trap them (you can live circle yourself). Shields and stuff like that also helps. Summons are usefull. 

But on the other hand, scepter have nice AOE that can be easly combined wih other stuff. Burning circle can be combined with leap from great sword (4rd skill) and will trigger burning shield (combo) that will burn everyone around you. Also skill 2 have small AOE that damage enemies and give you bonus. 

So when I'm in "DPS MODE" I teleport (skill) and burn enemies. Catch them in circle (hammer) and switch to great sword.

I put up burning circle+leap to trigger combo that burn enemies even more + another DoT circle (skill 2 greatsword). Then skill 3 to deal damage to everyone in circle.

Whole thing last around 5s. In that time I deal HUGE amount od damage. After 5s I switch to hammer and hit what didn't run away once hammer circle (skill 5) is down. 

Somewhere in the middle I fire 3 supoprt skills we have (F1-F3) for more burn, regeneration and shield.

 

It's great in PVP and if I have ranger support we can do insane damage. In PVE I fight against 3-5 mobs on my lvl and lvl above without problems at all. They hardly heat me. First of all we have aegis shield from the start. Then we have another under F3. We have great gap closer in skill tree (long range teleport + burn). For aftermatch I have transformation into a bear that increasae my attack power but that for special ocasion.

 

My guardian is great as DPS. Tanking too is very good. For that I use most of the time Hammer / Scepter+Focus (hammer for trapping enemy for 5s and AOE damage). I use all shielding I can use and ofcourse dodging is important. I put my traits into vitality since HP pool of Guardian is not so high after all. 

  User Deleted
9/27/12 5:23:52 AM#32

People complained for 8 years that all we were getting is trinity based WoW clones, and now that we get something different, the same people complain too... go figure.

Nope, GW2 is fine without the trinity. The abscence if it is actually a big breath of fresh air.

The "dungeon problem" has nothing to do with the trinity or it's lack of. Proof being some fights are very well done and not "zergish" at all (for instance Sorrow's Embrace). The fights simply need to be tweaked, nothing more... and also, 50% of the problem comes from the players refusing to "learn to play" the new way.

  MikeJezZ

Novice Member

Joined: 7/08/04
Posts: 1199

Only in death, does duty end.

9/27/12 5:32:20 AM#33
Originally posted by dariuszp
Originally posted by MikeJezZ

Is it only me who sees Guardian as a tank/supporter and not actually DPSer?

 

Or elementalist as being a healer? Or at least capable of doing so

Only you :P Yes, guardian have many defensive abilities. Hammer allow you to keep in check players/npc for 5 seconds and deal huge amount of damage or trap them (you can live circle yourself). Shields and stuff like that also helps. Summons are usefull. 

But on the other hand, scepter have nice AOE that can be easly combined wih other stuff. Burning circle can be combined with leap from great sword (4rd skill) and will trigger burning shield (combo) that will burn everyone around you. Also skill 2 have small AOE that damage enemies and give you bonus. 

So when I'm in "DPS MODE" I teleport (skill) and burn enemies. Catch them in circle (hammer) and switch to great sword.

I put up burning circle+leap to trigger combo that burn enemies even more + another DoT circle (skill 2 greatsword). Then skill 3 to deal damage to everyone in circle.

Whole thing last around 5s. In that time I deal HUGE amount od damage. After 5s I switch to hammer and hit what didn't run away once hammer circle (skill 5) is down. 

Somewhere in the middle I fire 3 supoprt skills we have (F1-F3) for more burn, regeneration and shield.

 

It's great in PVP and if I have ranger support we can do insane damage. In PVE I fight against 3-5 mobs on my lvl and lvl above without problems at all. They hardly heat me. First of all we have aegis shield from the start. Then we have another under F3. We have great gap closer in skill tree (long range teleport + burn). For aftermatch I have transformation into a bear that increasae my attack power but that for special ocasion.

 

My guardian is great as DPS. Tanking too is very good. For that I use most of the time Hammer / Scepter+Focus (hammer for trapping enemy for 5s and AOE damage). I use all shielding I can use and ofcourse dodging is important. I put my traits into vitality since HP pool of Guardian is not so high after all. 

I prefer 2 hand sword (Like sword look), but find the abilities lacking in PvP

 

Also, he gets killed lots faster than a warrior etc.

Playing ATM: Elder Scrolls Online, Diablo 3
MMO's shelted: Check my mmorpg profile
KICKSTARTED: Camelot Unchained. (250 USD)

  dariuszp

Novice Member

Joined: 1/19/12
Posts: 187

9/27/12 5:43:49 AM#34
Originally posted by MikeJezZ
I prefer 2 hand sword (Like sword look), but find the abilities lacking in PvP

 

Also, he gets killed lots faster than a warrior etc.

I would like to disagree with you. Lack of HP shows but this is why I invest in Vitality some points. On the other hand I played warrior before guardian ( i switched on lvl 50 ) and I clearle see that my guardian have higher damage output and it's suited to fight with large amount of enemies.

And since in PVP you hardly have any 1vs1 scenerio - I like my Guardian there too. I just teleport in the middle (bad ass skill) and output as much damage around me as I can. On "goodbye" I draw circle with my sword and dodge out while rangers can put their AOE on that area.

This is style that me and my friends use. We travel in groups in PVP. Guardians in front (because we can teleport in front of enemy). Engineers just behind to slow them down while our job is to trap them (hammer). Warriors and thieves jump in right after we start. No one can escape for 5s and because of that warriors and thieves have free meal. 

Turrets should be in place at this point and 3 rangers should drop AOE on their ass.

It's just insane tactic for sPVP where we have lot of choke points for a trap. WvsW have lot of open areas so it's hard to do something like that. There we and warriors just jump in and fight with rangers/elementalist AOE as support. We have instant gap closer. Warriors have leap. Tieves have shadow step.

You should see yesterday look on enemy face when 9 of us jump a group in sPVP. They were running around as usual and just in one second ground around them light up and all hell break loose. This is part I like the most. Because teleport is INSTANT, we always catch everone on guard. Most of the time they are dead before they realize what happen.   

  User Deleted
9/27/12 6:19:24 AM#35

There are a billion games out there with the trinity. Why is everyone so intent on turning the only one without it into the same old garbage that we all wanted a change from?

No wonder this genre has gotten so stale.

  ChrisReitz

Novice Member

Joined: 8/21/07
Posts: 127

9/27/12 10:25:15 AM#36
Looks like No Wins. Im not the only one who doesnt wants to wait hours on end for a group or making a boring class just to get into dungeons...
  Volkon

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3813

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

9/27/12 10:47:45 AM#37

I love it the way it is. There's something nice about being able to look through my weapons and skills and select a whole range of tools to do the various jobs I'll need as I come across them. I forget completely about trying to play a role and instead watch what's happening around me and respond accordingly. For example, in WvW I may see ranged attackers on the walls and pop a bubble around them, taking a moment to bask in the warm glow of satisfaction as their own attacks turn on them, leaving them in a downed and startled state where they stood. (Yes, main main is a mesmer.) Then seeing allies having to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous enemies as they break the door down I'll toss a null field around them to ease their pains. A group takes the fight directly to us, nothing like a chaos storm to add to the ... well, chaos..., then flip to a greatsword, swing it in a mighty arc (as only mesmers can do with flair) and watch a group of foes enjoy something we in the profession refer to as "hang time". Of course, it's a brief hang time which is followed by bouncy bouncy time, but it's worth it.

 

Basically, without the trinity and without roles in particular combat is so much more than you find in a trinity based game. Balance and versatility add dimensions you simply don't find elsewhere. These days, the only Trinity I'd be interested in was already grabbed by Neo and I refuse to sleep with anyone that slept with Keanu Reeves.

 

I have standards.

Oderint, dum metuant.

  gessekai332

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/31/07
Posts: 885

9/27/12 10:55:08 AM#38
Originally posted by observer
In my opinion, yes, but only for dungeons.  Maybe i don't have enough dungeon experience, but it seems to me that dungeons were designed for the trinity setup, instead of a non-trinity system.

i've been running explorables for several weeks now and i am completely loving it without the trinity. i've been doing them with both my engineer and my guardian and i have to say that what really matters the most is how you cooperate with your team. you guys dont even have to be the best players out there you just have to be willing to analyze the situation and think things through. fast ressing, blocking projectiles and attacks, CC's, properly dodging, making use of the terrain and interactable objects, are key to victory.

Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)

  kpshyazn

Novice Member

Joined: 10/21/09
Posts: 11

9/27/12 12:15:23 PM#39

Personally, lack of trinity is totally fine.  What I do miss, are CC-pulls =(

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

9/27/12 12:29:28 PM#40
I think trinity restricted to hard classes like say wow would not have worked (or even via respecs like swtor), would kinda go against the easy grouping philosophy of the game.

Now having trinity, but no classes and letting people shuffle their spells in use on the fly when out of combat, like tsw or (sort of) eve. That would probably work just as well. It's good that the game has easy grouping, but you can achieve it in other ways than droping the trinity - as done by the likes of tsw, coh and to a lesser degree rift.

Dropping the trinity helps some aspects of the game (easy grouping), but I don't think its the most important thing gw2 brings to the table, they are the return of the sense of exploration and the return of good themepark pvp, after what a 10 + year gap.
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