I think I have part of the answer, after having tested them both very briefly.

Both are still using WoW as a model, without much improvement as far as I saw.

Apart from this model dying, there is, however, a deeper lying reason:

It just feels flat to wield a firearm and not being able to actually aim and shoot it. The tab-targeting works just as if it had been with a fantasy game, but because the envrionment is so close to first-person-shooters, the artificiality and the removal of you from your character hits home so much stronger.

You become more aware of the mechanics surrounding tab-targeting than you otherwise would.

The feeling you get is quite flat and one of powerlessness. You don't have that satisfying feeling that you have from an FPS after you shoot and you see the target fall over. Once one piece of the puzzle falls apart, then the players begin noticing the others so much more.

Tab targeting and firearms is a bad combination, that doesn't fall through in the same way in a fantasy styled game. Why? I don't know exactly, but maybe because we got used to the fantasy-style from singleplayer games before the MMO's? In my opinion, it is the inevitable comparison to FPS'es because of the graphical similarities that makes the illusion fall and the game with it.

My theory of course :)

Originally posted by Quirhid
It doesn't have to be an FPS or anything of the sort, but it really bothers me that my character can shoot another character with a shotgun point blank and the other wont keel over. It is absurd. We are too familiar with firearms to buy that kind of "vitality".

Yes exactly.

The illusion falls pretty hard. How can you have tab-targeting and all the rules that come with it, and have it feel satisfying like a gun does in an FPS?

Originally posted by Quirhid
It doesn't have to be an FPS or anything of the sort, but it really bothers me that my character can shoot another character with a shotgun point blank and the other wont keel over. It is absurd. We are too familiar with firearms to buy that kind of "vitality".

You cant buy into someone surviving a gun blast but you have no issues believing zombies, mummies, demons and everything supernatural.....interesting.

well sure, TSW does use tab targeting but that is almost where the similarity with WoW ends. The two games are very different. I really don't think tab targeting or how the combat is done in general is the problem although I think most games will be moving toward a more active style of combat.

It is hard to call SWTOR a failure. It is still a huge title. But based on what EA was hoping for yeah I guess it failed. And that is at least part of the problem. EA wanted to create the next great thing more than they wanted to create a great game. Also, SWTOR simply didn't distinquish itself enough from WoW. Ultimately, once you have played it you are pretty much done. The endgame simply wasn't enough for a lot of people to stay. WoW gives you the same endgame but does it better. So once you are done with the 'story' what is supposed to keep you in that game? WoW also has the advantage of longevity. People already had a deep investment of time in WoW and probably still had friends over there so again once you finish the story in SWTOR why stay? Well there are in fact a lot of people who have stayed. Hardcore star wars fans will stay because you are not going to get lightsabres any where else. A certain amount will also stay because maybe all their friends moved and now they have inertia in that game. Some will have come to MMOs in the first place because it was star wars and they will also probably stay because not only are they fans but this is also their first MMO and that can stick hard with a person.

I would say that SWTOR is hardly a failure but it failed to to as well as it could of because it was too much like WoW but it didn't improve on it in any real noticeable way so its largest source of potential players , those coming from other game and mostly wow, just didn't have enough reason to stay. Stories are supposed to end. For that reason, creating an MMO primarily around the idea of story and making that your strongest feature was perhaps shortsighted.

The Secret World on the other hand is a completely different thing. I think it is simply an aquired taste that most will not get on board with. First the subject is odd. conspiracy theory. A good idea. An innovative idea, but for most people it proably comes off as odd. Second, not much advertising and hype. A lot of people dont know much or anything about it and are too busy getting into bigger titles that are just releasing or are putting out expansions. I know a bunch of people who have tried it and were blown away with how much better it was than they expected. Third, the mechanics, though well done, are unusual and that change, if they come from another game, can be offputting.

I think TSW is going to do fine as a small title though it is turning out to be even smaller than funcom had probably hoped. But as a niche game I think it will have a loyal following if funcom is willing to travel the long road and grow the population slowly over the next few years. It will never be huge however and funcom is going to have to be willing to live with that.

It is impossible to stop aimbot on pc.  Unless you going to make a mmorpg exclusively for console, Im' against all sort of fps in mmorpg.

Listening to my guild mates whine on vent for a month about aimbot made me quit fallen earth.

Originally posted by Yamota
I think it is simpler than that. Both of them failed because that they are, or claim to be, MMORPG but focus far too much on single player experience.

That is definitely true with SWTOR. I didn't play TSW enough to confirm it, but sounds likely, given FunCom's record.

I think this could also very likely be a part of the explanation.

I think people either need to stop using the word fail or to define what they mean by it.

Both of these games to me did not fail, no they did not meet their projected hopes but they did plan for that and had the f2p waiting on the back burner, but they are still going, still getting updates, still have plenty of people playing them.

They have not failed till the doors are closed IMO. 

Originally posted by Yamota
I think it is simpler than that. Both of them failed because that they are, or claim to be, MMORPG but focus far too much on single player experience.

This.  +  mmorpg WESTERN playerbase is dwindling and getting more fragmentarized -  and devs still seem to not realize that. 

They are betting alot on next gen consoles and getting mmorpg's there - you'll see how those consoles will see alot of mmo's. They are though way overestimate.  This market is shallower that they think and will fill up quicklk.  Will be back to square one.

I have no clue about TSW except I was very interested and watched it until launch and then didn't buy it.  Issue with games like that is there are some incredible single player games that do it much better.  SWTOR is in the same boat as that.  If the MMO isn't a 'massive online' world with free roaming and lots of opportunity to have group interaction via trades, missions, social hubs or whatever....then its hard to pay money for what feels like a laggy, subpar single player game.

I didn't buy TSW because I look for an MMO that 'may' have longevity so I know my time invested is worth it.  I want to play TSW but it would be for 1-2 months only. So why bother.

SWTOR breaks my heart.  I am such a fanboy of the original star wars (first movie I ever saw in the cinema), and the MMO was linear two dimensional and zero exploration.  What happened to flying across a vast desert and running into sand people with no one around for miles? 

Playing GW2 now and even though I am a sandbox player mostly, I am loving the huge world and exploration.

I wouldn't call either of those games a failure.

My partial theory is always going to come back to two things:

A) Marketing...failure.  But this can only go so far...

B) Min System Requirements...too high for the average MMO gamer.  They're in line with the specs for the type of games played by people that would not be interested in TSW.  Comparing the specs to the "major" releases in the past year, if you could play all of those games - that does not mean you could play TSW.  So if you could not play it well, then why pay for it?  The economy's been rough - MMOs have always been a cheaper form of entertainment for many - asking folks to upgrade their machines to play TSW when they can play other games fine...well, that was madness.

They said during the beta that they believed folks that were gaming enthusiasts would be upgrading their computers frequently - but - while there may be those that do so in the MMO community, it's not like in other gaming communities.  They just did not have the numbers there.  It was mind boggling.

Originally posted by Jaedor

I wouldn't call either of those games a failure.

No, you do have to call SWTOR a failure.I mean, it really is in so many aspects. There is a handful of people that are clinging onto the game but in all reality it is a FPS with a smidge of  neatness to it with a dabble of coolness and then a BUCKETLOAD OF LONELINESS. If I ever wanted to get away from people irl I would log into SWTOR or ride my Harley. Love ya!

Originally posted by Jaedor

I wouldn't call either of those games a failure.

      TSW is a failure even by its own company's standards...They expected to sell 750k+ boxes and didn't even hit 1/3 of that.....They've lost alot of money on TSW and are reeling......SOme of you guys may really like the game and thats great, but TSW failed miserably for FUncom.