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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » Worse Dungeon System I have ever played.

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225 posts found
  aRtFuLThinG

Novice Member

Joined: 4/30/09
Posts: 1000

9/23/12 9:57:25 PM#41
Originally posted by Kumate

We did take our time and pull mobs together without rushing.  It didn't stop the mob from 1-2 shotting people.  It didn't stop the dogs from chain fearing us for 5-10 seconds.  Getting feared while someonething is doing damage to you is retarded.  Just to get out of it and not have enough time to hit your heal key before you are refeared.  All the time other mobs are dropping barrels on the ground that exploded that you can't aviod because you are feared.  Our CC's are no where near as useful on them. 

That is your problem right there.

CC is not meant to be used for dungeon. Combo fields is the reason where you are not surviving. Blind, confusion, condition removal and dodge, once again, is more of a key mechanic in this game than CC or healing. In WoW or other games on the other hand blind and such doesn't work on bosses.

If you combo fielded correctly, healing will not even need to be managed and the damage from mobs will be much less.

The problem is a lot of players are bringing in what they know from other games into this game. You pretty much got to empty your cup and learn from scratch. It is a different mechanic all together.

 

  xm522

Novice Member

Joined: 3/23/09
Posts: 114

9/23/12 10:04:36 PM#42
Originally posted by Kumate
Originally posted by xm522

today i ran my first dungeon in GW2.

my impressions are as follows - the dungeons are very very unforgiving :). overall they are great.

1. mobs are incredibly strong (impossibly strong) and it is wise not to pull more than one regular mob at a time as they can seriously screw with your group.

2. the mini-boss fights are fairly straight forward, while the boss fights are incredibly fun and well written.

- the dungeon system simply is a whole nother level than the rest of the game and i feel that most people will find them either too challenging or too time consuming, but they are great. and the action and complexity is something that could not have been achieved with a tank and spank system. 

complain: loot is not on par with the difficulty of the dungeon....  those dungeons need to re-think the loot, as it is not good enough for the difficulty of it all.

Every boss in CM was tank and spank.  How is that well written?  Also you pull all the mobs, there is no way to pull *just one*. 

have not done CM so no comment there. but mobs can indeed be pulled. sometimes pulling "just one" is impossible, but hey, that's what groupwork is there for :).

you need to adjust to the play style of this game. if your group mates do not have induvidual SKILL then you will have a bad time. i do not believe that CM is tank and soank simply by my experience in the game.

you want CC to last longer but that would just make things easier, taking away complexity

 

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 6976

9/23/12 10:26:51 PM#43

Here's my thing with combo fields. I play a necro. I'm going to lay down fields (AoE) naturally to do damage. Then I will shoot into that combo field, naturally. I will drop my AoE (combo field) heal when it's needed, naturally. People running into it for a heal will dps out of it naturally. The system is in place, but along with the skill system, there is room for a lot more. As it stands now it almost feels like a passive effect, or something that's going to naturally happen. 

 

Maybe if triggering combo fields did something active instead of causing a semi-passive debuff. It just seems like the warriors 5 whirl finishers (the class with the most weapon variety in weapon choice) should have different effects. Ability Y should do X in combo field A. As it stands now Ability Z also does X in combo field A, just like ability N,I, and E.

 

slightly off topic, but you can connect the dots lol.

 

 

 
  SirFubar

Novice Member

Joined: 7/21/11
Posts: 402

9/23/12 10:33:17 PM#44

Just got something to say to the people crying for nerf, saying the dungeons are too hard (funniest thing is some people here are crying about STORY MODE LOLOLOL) or that the trash mobs can 2 shot you, either l2p with teamwork or go play WoW style carebare dungeons.

Also found this in another thread recently :

Things said by arenanet that are happening (with source) thread

  • They don't want graveyard zerg in dungeons.
  • They plan on balancing bosses and adding more attack patterns to bosses
  • Rewards getting tweaked in dungeons.
  • They aren't planning on nerfing dungeons because some babies think they're too hard.
source : https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/dungeons/Do-NOT-nerf-please/first#post126835
 
Get used to it people because things won't change soon. I'm actually very glad that arenanet won't follow the trend of listening to crybabies on the forums because content is "too hard" for them.
  thunderC

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/17/12
Posts: 347

9/23/12 10:47:09 PM#45

I also ran CM as a lvl 50 elementalist for the first time in story mode a few nights ago (My first GW2 dungeon run).  My reaction was pretty much the complete opposite of the OP's.

 

At first I was like WTF is this shit?! The first golem boss must have wiped each of us in the group several times or so. It was very shocking to have a boss in a MMO 2 shot you in a low lvl dungeon(the first boss mind you). The next pull once you enter the mansion is even worse, They just throw too many elite's at you in too small of a confined area to do any sort of kiting. Our group found it much easier to just kite them outside the mansion where there is much more room to move around.

 

  As the run went on , the entire group started to wipe less &less each pull. I think all of us without saying a word to each other kind of figured out we needed to move,Kite CC and pretty much utulize all of our skills. Its hard to break out of that WOW tank and spank mentality that we are all so use to.

 

 I found myself as a elementalist pretty much playing a total support role during the run. I would open up with fire pull all agro and the use all my CC's abiltys (LIGHTNING static CC,ICE CC,Earth CC) kite the mobs in a circle while the rest of the group dps. When they eventually pulled agro off me i would throw out some AOE heling and go back to fire for dps.

 

I really enjoyed the fast paced, challenging difficulty. To be honest once you L2P your class and break out of the WOW tank & spank mentality the game really shines. Can't wait to try all the other dungeons and I really hope A-Net doesn't cave to all the whiners who want instances nerfed.

  Xiaoki

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/07/04
Posts: 2424

9/23/12 11:55:37 PM#46

The dungeons are pretty bad. Badly designed and badly programmed. You'd think a bug that causes a final boss to disappear would be fixed very soon, but you'd be wrong.


The bosses are mostly very simple, they just do a lot of damage and have a ton of health. There arnt many bosses that have more than 3 abilities.

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3109

9/24/12 2:34:58 AM#47
Ignoring bugs that's incorrect, cm is certainly a tank n spank but ac is a different kettle of fish and requires specific tactics, with the lovers requiring for example the boss positions to be managed and strong damage mitigation and add control.

Re complaining about difficulty, don't be daft!. An example we ran ac for our first time and we got destroyed, wiping many times etc. the 2nd run we all adjusted our traits, managed marking a lot better and worked out a strategy that worked. We never wiped once. Being able to clear an instance with no wipes after only 2 runs is hardly difficult (and that was without vent)

If you want challenging encounters then you may die a lot on the first go while you learn an encounter- how else could it be?

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist)

Now playing Wildstar, AOW 3

  Kumate

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/22/06
Posts: 74

 
OP  9/24/12 3:36:19 AM#48
Originally posted by thunderC

I also ran CM as a lvl 50 elementalist for the first time in story mode a few nights ago (My first GW2 dungeon run).  My reaction was pretty much the complete opposite of the OP's.

 

At first I was like WTF is this shit?! The first golem boss must have wiped each of us in the group several times or so. It was very shocking to have a boss in a MMO 2 shot you in a low lvl dungeon(the first boss mind you). The next pull once you enter the mansion is even worse, They just throw too many elite's at you in too small of a confined area to do any sort of kiting. Our group found it much easier to just kite them outside the mansion where there is much more room to move around.

 

  As the run went on , the entire group started to wipe less &less each pull. I think all of us without saying a word to each other kind of figured out we needed to move,Kite CC and pretty much utulize all of our skills. Its hard to break out of that WOW tank and spank mentality that we are all so use to.

 

 I found myself as a elementalist pretty much playing a total support role during the run. I would open up with fire pull all agro and the use all my CC's abiltys (LIGHTNING static CC,ICE CC,Earth CC) kite the mobs in a circle while the rest of the group dps. When they eventually pulled agro off me i would throw out some AOE heling and go back to fire for dps.

 

I really enjoyed the fast paced, challenging difficulty. To be honest once you L2P your class and break out of the WOW tank & spank mentality the game really shines. Can't wait to try all the other dungeons and I really hope A-Net doesn't cave to all the whiners who want instances nerfed.

Man, I am only going to say this one more time because people read something and just get it in their head they know exactly what the problem is.  I DID NOT SAY I WANTED THE ZONE TO BE NERFED.  I ALSO DID NOT SAY I WAS DIEING EVERY FIGHT AND HAD NO IDEA WHAT I WAS DOING.

I said that while we were in there the mobs were just tank and spank and had NO strategy to them.  As a matter of fact I can easily say the only reason we did as well as we did in there was because I was a kiting machine that was managing my pets and skills like a pro.  I have played MMO's for a long time and know what I am doing.  I was using our Ele's combo field and I was placing my healing spring on the melee and pets.  I was doing my job.  Even when doing my job there was nothing "special" about the zone.  All the mobs just hit you hard and did the same 2 attacks the entire time.  The "champion" mobs were the same as the elites just more HP and hit harder.  When you play other games like Tera or TSW and you go into a boss encounter there is that (o crap did you see that moment) that get you all exicited, in GW2 the entire time I was like...how far till the end because this is retarded.  I listen to the story, I read the text, and watched the mobs actions.  It was boring.  Very poor design.  The only difference from Dungeons and Open zone dynamic events is that they are in an instances and the mobs hit harder and have more HP.  That is not a "good" system.

I dont care if they made the zone a cake walk or damn near impossible, I didn't like the Dungeon.  So please stop putting words in my mouth, I do not want the zone easier and I do know how to play my class.  I just didn't like the dungeon.  The rest of the game is probably some of the best gaming experiences I have had since UO and EQ.

  Caliburn101

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/11
Posts: 647

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." Albert Einstein

9/24/12 3:51:00 AM#49
Originally posted by The_Korrigan
Originally posted by Khebeln

I have 600+ Hours played on one character

Wow, thats 20 hours a day (game has been out for 30 days I think - August 25 (early access) to today included)... that leaves 4 hours to sleep, washing, eating, etc...

Yeah, sure :)

And you played 600+ hours in 30 days and didn't notice you can switch builds for a 3s50c fee at any trainer?

You hit the nail on the head there Korrigan.

A player who opens their arguement with a dismissive 'I have more time online in GW2 than you so any counter-arguement you make is invalid' and then overblows it with an impossible figure.

.... and another poster saying they 'miss strategy'.... hell that translates pretty accurately to 'I miss predictable scripting and repeat same tactic = win' gameplay.

The comment on combo fields is also well made - they make a tremendous difference.

I for one run dungeons with power/toughness/heal accessories and power/crit/condition damage armour and weapons and do just fine. You only need to stack vitality/toughness/power if you lack skill and/or adaptability.

The difference between a PUG lacking in cohesion and synergy and a guild-team who understand that the whole is more than the sum of the parts is very marked in dungeons.

Yes it is a more complex challenge. Yes, you will wipe a lot if you go in wth your 'WoW Raid Head', but things improve significantly once you realise the dungeons in GW2 require a more flexible form of team play.

I have experienced some of the worst and the best dungeon runs in this regard and it is as clear as crystal why the bad was painful, and the good was a triumph.

It will be obvious to anyone else still struggling as long as they stick at it - better yet, get into one of my Guilds dungeon runs and see the difference for yourself.

The game is a new take on things - clinging to the old paradigms isn't going to work.

Stop being such Luddites about it....

  Vonatar

Elite Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 553

9/24/12 4:10:01 AM#50

My guild runs dungeons twice weekly and I've been on most runs. What has become obvious to me from when we first started doing it until now is how much easier things are now. When I think back to that first AC Howling King run where the graveling event seemed impossible it makes me smile.

Why? Because people have learned to play their professions better. People are understanding and remembering their abilities and using them in the right circumstances. In my view this has got to be the #1 reason why people find dungeons hard. They don't know what to do and they don't know what they can do with their own profession.

As Aerowyn said quite rightly combo fields make a huge difference. Area weakness, area might etc. on a group pull is just an example of how it just got easier by ratcheting up your party's damage. But knowing how to use your abilities is also key. Want some CC? Stick a ranger bear pet on a target, pop a net turret, get a thief to call in his buddies, use cripples and kite the mobs. It's a dynamic combat game so don't expect to just CC a target and forget about it for 30 secs.

Dungeon play is SO different from other games that it really is about learning a whole new style of play and being in a tightly coordinated group that knows their profession. I'm not talking about skill in playing the profession (I am not someone with the reflexes of a 16 year old) but knowing your abilities and thinking about how to apply them to the situation.

  Raekon

Novice Member

Joined: 3/05/04
Posts: 551

9/24/12 4:10:15 AM#51

In my opinion the dungeon system is far better this way then with the holy trinity.

The downed state also gives you a chance not to die immediately and if played well in a team you can come back on your feet several times aswell.

Not a chance like that in the boring holy trinity system in which you need certain builds to even enter a dungeon and then when one drops all ends because you can't do it anymore (unlike in GW2s design in which I did dungeons with 4 people aswell).

You also don't need hours of searching and are accepted in a group no matter what your profession is.

So yes, it is harder and needs more organization but for that you get people in your team and jump in instead of wasting tons of time on looking for a certain type of tank or healer for between 20 minutes and over a hour, only to get someone to drop out or people to start blaming each other for their own faults.

I had bad groups and I had good to very good groups and the professions didn't play a big role, the teamwork did.

As a elementalist I'm getting targeted a lot by the mobs (well by the people in WvsWvsW aswell actually...) as the first target to be taken down.

For that I have alot of defences and traits up that are helping me and my team in such situations.

When I know a dungeon and how it works I let the people know and we try to go ahead as organized as possible.

This way a run can work like a charm with being defeated only 1 to 2 times in the whole dungeon.

All you need to do is utilize everything you have effectively and situation based while keeping an eye on your team and environment additionaly to the action.

Yes it can be hard but it's possible and it definately works. Most of all it's fun for me cause I get to do much more than being the "healer" out of the 5 that stays in the back waiting for the "tank" to take a certain amount of damage and heal not too much so I won't draw the aggro my way.

 

  Medicated03

Novice Member

Joined: 11/30/09
Posts: 41

9/24/12 4:15:35 AM#52

After reading so many posts about dungeons on here and GW2 forums ive come to some interesting conclusions.

1. For a supposedly anti-elitist game the general attitude towards people who say negative things about dungeons is "you arent skiled enough" or "get better" ... i loled

2.If you find the trinity system boring in dungeons ( i honestly doubt %95 of GW2 players ever did any good trintiy hard mode content) how the hell do you find kiting, dodging and ressing more fun ? honestly i dont see what part of taking turns kiting a mob around dodging randomly when u can and ressing people constantly is even remotely entertaining or challenging for that matter  ....... sure combo fields are cool but that doesnt  change that with the current system other than combos you dodge,kite and res for every fight.... repettative much ?

3.All the non gear grind go back to wow haters and fanbois , i notice your either silent or in agreeance with dungeons needing better "rewards" , this is also in line with " we dont need a carrot "  i thought that this was all about fun and challenge, the reward for doing the dungeon was getting to do it ?

4. The inability to play your class how you want in dungeons due to such poor mechanics makes me pray that no one else ever comes out with such a poor non trinity concept with such boring mechanics. Its the same problem i have with the classes and skills, if im a duel pistol thief thats what i want to use, i dont want to be forced to change weapons to get what feels like character depth, i dont want to br forced to run 1 of 3 theif weapon/trait combos to be able to do pve content, i thought this was what GW2 was supposed to change but in reality its the opposite, ive never felt like my char had less choice or depth in any other game.

  Caliburn101

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/11
Posts: 647

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." Albert Einstein

9/24/12 4:30:23 AM#53
Originally posted by Medicated03

After reading so many posts about dungeons on here and GW2 forums ive come to some interesting conclusions.

1. For a supposedly anti-elitist game the general attitude towards people who say negative things about dungeons is "you arent skiled enough" or "get better" ... i loled

2.If you find the trinity system boring in dungeons ( i honestly doubt %95 of GW2 players ever did any good trintiy hard mode content) how the hell do you find kiting, dodging and ressing more fun ? honestly i dont see what part of taking turns kiting a mob around dodging randomly when u can and ressing people constantly is even remotely entertaining or challenging for that matter  ....... sure combo fields are cool but that doesnt  change that with the current system other than combos you dodge,kite and res for every fight.... repettative much ?

3.All the non gear grind go back to wow haters and fanbois , i notice your either silent or in agreeance with dungeons needing better "rewards" , this is also in line with " we dont need a carrot "  i thought that this was all about fun and challenge, the reward for doing the dungeon was getting to do it ?

4. The inability to play your class how you want in dungeons due to such poor mechanics makes me pray that no one else ever comes out with such a poor non trinity concept with such boring mechanics. Its the same problem i have with the classes and skills, if im a duel pistol thief thats what i want to use, i dont want to be forced to change weapons to get what feels like character depth, i dont want to br forced to run 1 of 3 theif weapon/trait combos to be able to do pve content, i thought this was what GW2 was supposed to change but in reality its the opposite, ive never felt like my char had less choice or depth in any other game.

1. The skill requirement is much more of a factor than the gear requirement to a greater degree than other MMOs. Stating this isn't elitist, it's simply a fact which needs adjusting to. I agree being dimissive of people based on skill is poor ettiquette, but it is in reponse to people saying the game is s**t because they want it to be more gear based etc.

2. '95%' of GW2 players never did any hard/good trinity content did they? This comment could be so easily used to dimiss anything else you say as utterly irrelevant. It is a 'statistic' you pulled out of the air and presented as fact - undermining your position about as completely as you could have done.

....never mind eh!?.....

3. 'wow-haters and fanbois'.... fine as shorthand if you have a balanced arguement, but you don't, so once again your point is undermined as readers classify you as a 'GW2-hater' and stop giving what you say any weight.

4. I have the ability to play my class any way I please. I am wondering why you think YOU don't? Your comment about dual-wielding pistols is especially revealing. In short - you want one tactic to work for everything - sounds very much like a more traditional MMO player used to the same weapon and button rotation for all enemies and situations to me....

I really don't understand the vitriol poured out over GW2 by the players of other MMOs complaining that GW2 is different and 'different = fail'.

In the face of this unreasoning position it is understandable that people revert to 'ltp' or 'play something else' comments. As the answers to my reasoned response in this post will attest - being logical and engaging on the issues accomplishes nothing....

.... but I didn't dismiss you did I - I tackled your arguement, which in my opinion is without any real merit.

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4583

9/24/12 4:34:44 AM#54

I understand where the OP is coming from, but a lot of the complaints I hear in regards to the dungeons comes from people who still approach it like it's a Trinity based system. I know that most people by now know that the game is supposed to be a 'non trinity', but it doesn't change a large segment of the population from trying to play it as one.

Usually, the dungeons only turn into zergy death-fests when people try and approach them in such a way. I've successfully PUGed all the dungeons, multiple times, with various class combos. Really, what it comes down to is the following:

1) Glass cannons don't work. If you're going to be doing dungeons (especially explorables), throw on some HP gear. WIth a little bit of vitality, you will not be getting 1 shotted, and usually won't even be getting 2 shotted by most enemies. This doesn't mean you need to stack mostly vit, but having a split between the two gives you enough time to react, and to get your heal skill off cooldown to stay alive longer. Dead dps is no dps after all.

2) Pay attention to your surroundings. Everyone is responsible for taking care of themselves to an extent. If you are getting hit, then it's your turn to kite a bit. Use CC, blocking skills, evasions, etc. until you can get the enemy to switch targets.

3) Get downed players up fast.

4) Pay attention to the mechanics. Each fight has various methods of approaching it, and various ways to approach it. Every class as some way of dealing w/ the encounter. For example in CM, skils that reflect projectiles, blind, or grant block / evasion to allies help a ton. A lot of people go in with optimal damage builds, and never bother to bring condition removal, CC, or defensive skills to a fight. This is a huge mistake. Sometimes you can get lucky with group composition, and have allies that take care of all of that stuff for you, but it's not very common.

5) The first run is always the hardest. As people get used to the mechanics, a lot of mistakes get made. Naturally this leads to deaths. Do multiple runs, or try and do dungeons with people you know have ran them before. It makes them a lot easier to do.

Communicate with your team if they're new. Find out what skills they are bringing to the fight, and see if there's anything your group might be missing. Wooden Potatoes also has a few decent videos on AC explorable, where he mentions some of the above points and gives some tips.

  Karelia

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/21/12
Posts: 688

9/24/12 4:48:24 AM#55
i dont care about trinity and i have no problem to try a new approach to group/dungeon mechanics. but if this is the replacement of the trinity then, ty i wont buy. it sucks big time
  bone12

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/08
Posts: 33

9/24/12 4:51:37 AM#56
Originally posted by Kumate

This game by far has blown me away in almost every category, the gameplay is fun and the world is bueatiful.  The Dynamic events are a great way to level because there is no go fletch quest hubs and so on, but last night I tried a dungeon for the first time.

I was a a level 50 Ranger doing a level 40 CM story mode.  I had heard the horror stories of how unorganized, zerg fest they were but I kept telling myself I've played MMO's for so long that it can't be that bad.  It was, the lack of a trinity was clear right away.

When entering the zone we started thru the story.  First mob is a Golem, solo, and didn't go to bad.  One death by a warrior but we got him up fast.  I'm thinking ok, not to shabby.  Second group of mobs is where it all went downhill.  Your first pull there is about 4-5 mobs.  Each one of them are "elite" which means even if all 5 of us are attacking it, it takes about 45-60 seconds to burn it down.  Except there is no way to do ANYTHING about the other 4 beating on you.  There is no tanking, no offtanking, no CC that is worth it.  Most CC in this game last 3 seconds maybe.  So needless to say, nearly every pull was a wipe.  We spent as much time rezing people as we did fighting.  

We beat the dungeon, but our strat was to all attack one mob, burn it down hopefully before we wiped, and come back and do it again.  We would burn the barrel placers first and so on. 

I know that CM was made harder recenetly, but this was just storymode.  I felt like I didn't learn anything from the story because I was to busy cringing at this system.  There was NOTHING FUN about this dungeon.  We also had a person quit and we had to replace them during this dungeon because he said (sorry guys..this dugeon system is horrible..I am going to uninstall). 

 

My character was setup for PVE and grouping.  I had healing spring with some points into healing, search and rescue to help with rezing and the healing spirit.  There was no way to heal thru that damage.  We also had a guardian and that helped some but just prolonged how long it took us to wipe. 

I miss my healers, tanks, and true CC.  I lost motivation to level now because I do enjoy PVE more then PVP and knowing that is all I have to look forward to in dungeons is quite dishearting.  I love every other aspect of this game, crafting, quest, pvp, graphics, but this is to core of a system for me to overlook.  There is a difference between core mehanics and difficulty.  The core mechanics on dungeons is just broke.  Even if they made it super easy and a zerg fest, there would still be no "skill" to the system.  It is either boring no pay attention killing, or just a wipe and res as fast as you can event.  I miss strategy.

 

how old are u ? cause Gw2 got a dungeon system just like Wow.. so dont complain about it.. Gw2 offers better dungeons harder dungeons.. and i love it u dont i accept it.

  Medicated03

Novice Member

Joined: 11/30/09
Posts: 41

9/24/12 5:02:17 AM#57
Originally posted by Caliburn101
Originally posted by Medicated03

After reading so many posts about dungeons on here and GW2 forums ive come to some interesting conclusions.

1. For a supposedly anti-elitist game the general attitude towards people who say negative things about dungeons is "you arent skiled enough" or "get better" ... i loled

2.If you find the trinity system boring in dungeons ( i honestly doubt %95 of GW2 players ever did any good trintiy hard mode content) how the hell do you find kiting, dodging and ressing more fun ? honestly i dont see what part of taking turns kiting a mob around dodging randomly when u can and ressing people constantly is even remotely entertaining or challenging for that matter  ....... sure combo fields are cool but that doesnt  change that with the current system other than combos you dodge,kite and res for every fight.... repettative much ?

3.All the non gear grind go back to wow haters and fanbois , i notice your either silent or in agreeance with dungeons needing better "rewards" , this is also in line with " we dont need a carrot "  i thought that this was all about fun and challenge, the reward for doing the dungeon was getting to do it ?

4. The inability to play your class how you want in dungeons due to such poor mechanics makes me pray that no one else ever comes out with such a poor non trinity concept with such boring mechanics. Its the same problem i have with the classes and skills, if im a duel pistol thief thats what i want to use, i dont want to be forced to change weapons to get what feels like character depth, i dont want to br forced to run 1 of 3 theif weapon/trait combos to be able to do pve content, i thought this was what GW2 was supposed to change but in reality its the opposite, ive never felt like my char had less choice or depth in any other game.

1. The skill requirement is much more of a factor than the gear requirement to a greater degree than other MMOs. Stating this isn't elitist, it's simply a fact which needs adjusting to. I agree being dimissive of people based on skill is poor ettiquette, but it is in reponse to people saying the game is s**t because they want it to be more gear based etc.  Really ? cause pretty much everyone agrees that you need to have gold gear or better AND "more skill" no matter how you paint that picture , that is an elitist attitude telling someone to get better has nuthing to do with ettiquite its a precise statement referring to your superior skill , its elitism in its finest.... i have already had this argument once but elitism is NOT restricted to noobs in WoW with epics.......

2. '95%' of GW2 players never did any hard/good trinity content did they? This comment could be so easily used to dimiss anything else you say as utterly irrelevant. It is a 'statistic' you pulled out of the air and presented as fact - undermining your position about as completely as you could have done.  If you have read as many " this beats watching my cast bar while tanks stand in one place tanking and healers heal" posts as i have this assumption would make alot more sense..... sorry but its blatanlty obvious how little real PVE content most people that post about "trinity" games have actually done that requires co ordination and teamwork, of course all those hard mode boss fights and raids and world bosses in other games all go down while we magically stand in one spot right ?

....never mind eh!?.....

3. 'wow-haters and fanbois'.... fine as shorthand if you have a balanced arguement, but you don't, so once again your point is undermined as readers classify you as a 'GW2-hater' and stop giving what you say any weight.  Why because anyone who has ever posted something negative in this GW2 part has been told to go back to wow or enjoy the panda's at least 10 times in each post ? Because rabid fanboys have 0 logical input to any discussion ? Oh look youve done th same thing all rabid defenders of the realm do, pretty much ignore points you cant argue and try to twist the rest to make it out like your ntelligent.

4. I have the ability to play my class any way I please. I am wondering why you think YOU don't? Your comment about dual-wielding pistols is especially revealing. In short - you want one tactic to work for everything - sounds very much like a more traditional MMO player used to the same weapon and button rotation for all enemies and situations to me.... What is revealing ? that i dont want to be FORCED to switch weapons ? how about my personal immersion in a game like GW2 why should i suddenly become a dagger weilding char because i need certain skills for a situation ,  this is your worst bit yet, instead of having one deep class that can do a bunch of things  ( hardly one tactic) i have a class broken into weapon sets.... giving it more "tactics" ? your idea has more holes than a piece of swiss cheese.....

I really don't understand the vitriol poured out over GW2 by the players of other MMOs complaining that GW2 is different and 'different = fail'. Ive never once said the game failed... nor do i play WoW or any current sub based game as they are all not up to scratch, fact is there is way just as many misleading "positive" threads about the game as negative , where in my post did i actually bash the game as much as more the retarded fanbois and haters of anything non GW2 ? you turned my post into a i hate GW2 post .....

In the face of this unreasoning position it is understandable that people revert to 'ltp' or 'play something else' comments. As the answers to my reasoned response in this post will attest - being logical and engaging on the issues accomplishes nothing.... i fail to see your logic

.... but I didn't dismiss you did I - I tackled your arguement, which in my opinion is without any real merit.

 

  Karelia

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/21/12
Posts: 688

9/24/12 5:02:59 AM#58
Originally posted by bone12
Originally posted by Kumate

This game by far has blown me away in almost every category, the gameplay is fun and the world is bueatiful.  The Dynamic events are a great way to level because there is no go fletch quest hubs and so on, but last night I tried a dungeon for the first time.

I was a a level 50 Ranger doing a level 40 CM story mode.  I had heard the horror stories of how unorganized, zerg fest they were but I kept telling myself I've played MMO's for so long that it can't be that bad.  It was, the lack of a trinity was clear right away.

When entering the zone we started thru the story.  First mob is a Golem, solo, and didn't go to bad.  One death by a warrior but we got him up fast.  I'm thinking ok, not to shabby.  Second group of mobs is where it all went downhill.  Your first pull there is about 4-5 mobs.  Each one of them are "elite" which means even if all 5 of us are attacking it, it takes about 45-60 seconds to burn it down.  Except there is no way to do ANYTHING about the other 4 beating on you.  There is no tanking, no offtanking, no CC that is worth it.  Most CC in this game last 3 seconds maybe.  So needless to say, nearly every pull was a wipe.  We spent as much time rezing people as we did fighting.  

We beat the dungeon, but our strat was to all attack one mob, burn it down hopefully before we wiped, and come back and do it again.  We would burn the barrel placers first and so on. 

I know that CM was made harder recenetly, but this was just storymode.  I felt like I didn't learn anything from the story because I was to busy cringing at this system.  There was NOTHING FUN about this dungeon.  We also had a person quit and we had to replace them during this dungeon because he said (sorry guys..this dugeon system is horrible..I am going to uninstall). 

 

My character was setup for PVE and grouping.  I had healing spring with some points into healing, search and rescue to help with rezing and the healing spirit.  There was no way to heal thru that damage.  We also had a guardian and that helped some but just prolonged how long it took us to wipe. 

I miss my healers, tanks, and true CC.  I lost motivation to level now because I do enjoy PVE more then PVP and knowing that is all I have to look forward to in dungeons is quite dishearting.  I love every other aspect of this game, crafting, quest, pvp, graphics, but this is to core of a system for me to overlook.  There is a difference between core mehanics and difficulty.  The core mechanics on dungeons is just broke.  Even if they made it super easy and a zerg fest, there would still be no "skill" to the system.  It is either boring no pay attention killing, or just a wipe and res as fast as you can event.  I miss strategy.

 

how old are u ? cause Gw2 got a dungeon system just like Wow.. so dont complain about it.. Gw2 offers better dungeons harder dungeons.. and i love it u dont i accept it.

kidding right?

  Caliburn101

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/11
Posts: 647

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." Albert Einstein

9/24/12 5:23:22 AM#59
Originally posted by Medicated03
Originally posted by Caliburn101
Originally posted by Medicated03
 

In the face of this unreasoning position it is understandable that people revert to 'ltp' or 'play something else' comments. As the answers to my reasoned response in this post will attest - being logical and engaging on the issues accomplishes nothing.... i fail to see your logic

 

Indeed you do - how predictably ironic.

  Omnifish

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/16/11
Posts: 603

I'll kick your a**e so hard, you could build a swimming pool in the footprint!

9/24/12 6:09:55 AM#60
Originally posted by Caliburn101
Originally posted by The_Korrigan
Originally posted by Khebeln

I have 600+ Hours played on one character

Wow, thats 20 hours a day (game has been out for 30 days I think - August 25 (early access) to today included)... that leaves 4 hours to sleep, washing, eating, etc...

Yeah, sure :)

And you played 600+ hours in 30 days and didn't notice you can switch builds for a 3s50c fee at any trainer?

You hit the nail on the head there Korrigan.

A player who opens their arguement with a dismissive 'I have more time online in GW2 than you so any counter-arguement you make is invalid' and then overblows it with an impossible figure.

.... and another poster saying they 'miss strategy'.... hell that translates pretty accurately to 'I miss predictable scripting and repeat same tactic = win' gameplay.

The comment on combo fields is also well made - they make a tremendous difference.

I for one run dungeons with power/toughness/heal accessories and power/crit/condition damage armour and weapons and do just fine. You only need to stack vitality/toughness/power if you lack skill and/or adaptability.

The difference between a PUG lacking in cohesion and synergy and a guild-team who understand that the whole is more than the sum of the parts is very marked in dungeons.

Yes it is a more complex challenge. Yes, you will wipe a lot if you go in wth your 'WoW Raid Head', but things improve significantly once you realise the dungeons in GW2 require a more flexible form of team play.

I have experienced some of the worst and the best dungeon runs in this regard and it is as clear as crystal why the bad was painful, and the good was a triumph.

It will be obvious to anyone else still struggling as long as they stick at it - better yet, get into one of my Guilds dungeon runs and see the difference for yourself.

The game is a new take on things - clinging to the old paradigms isn't going to work.

Stop being such Luddites about it....

I do love how you and Korrigan seem to jump on that guy, over he's, '600 hour', statement, because really that's all the pair of you have to go on isn't? I'd suspect he's done a lot more dungeons and has more experience of that mode then you, but you must discredit him because he's negative about saintly GW2.  You diehard GW2 fanbois are truly pathetic.

GW2's dungeons are actually hillariously simplistic,  They have much less variety then WoW's raids, sorry to tell you.  Here's how to succeed at dungeons: 1. Bring a Guardian, with a sword and shield. 2. Bring a Mesmer, who is fine with condition/debuffing, 3. Bring whoever else with toughness and vitality signets. 4. Stick everyone at range, apart from the Guardian who should dodge when he can. 5. WIN!

If your having problems with that, or can't get that setup, graveyard zerg till it dies, (Twins is especially fun doing this!).

That is pretty much it.  The games, 'difficulty', comes from mistakes or unavoidable aoe, which just blows you away. I.E. Like others have said mobs that hit like trucks, that's just poor design because it's simply to do and has no reply value.

By all means though if you think your a superior being for loving GW2 and we're all living in the past go ahead, who are we to stop you? 

This looks like a job for....The Riviera Kid!

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