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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » The anonymity of Guild Wars 2 and the degredation of social MMO's

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82 posts found
  botrytis

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2516

9/24/12 7:29:32 AM#61

A.Net has already stated that GvG and guild halls will be put in game in a future patch, after all it is Guild Wars 2. This will go a long way into helping with the guild progression and other issues dealing with guilds.

 

As far as the social aspect of the game, one cannot blame GW2 for that. It is the way our society is - people would rather chat or text on cell phones than meet face to face.  Letter writing, which is an art to be sure, is also lost mostly now. I think that the problems in MMO's are just a reflection of the problem with society in general.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7145

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

9/24/12 7:35:30 AM#62
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Vesavius

Take a look at the robust guild finding tools a game like EQ2 offers. They are excellent. The game dosen't 'do everything for you', but it opens the doors for you to meet other players who want to do the same things and share the same mindset.

...to meet other players that want to kill the same crap in the same place as you.

"Do the same things" only applies because there is no reason to band together to do anything other than kill crap.

"Share the same mindset" would be shearly by accident at best. I can't begin to guess how you would assess such a thing unless you are keeping all 'mindsets" within a small sphere of varying degrees of "kill crap"

 

Great tools for grouping in EQ2. Those tool shave nothing to do with the social aspect of the game - they just put people with solo goals that have to be reached in groups into groups.

 

I disagree.

I hold that community is built from the bottom up by core design to enable the player to connect and have a reason for doing so, but then I said all that before but you just edited it out so I guess you didn't like to take it in as part of the whole point I was making.

 

As I said... The fact remains, community is built or destroyed by core game design in MMORPGs and the tools it offers to facilitate it.

A solo focused, self despendent, fast action game with no social tools will by definition have a harder time building a meaningful community then a group focused, inter dependent, slower tactical game with robust tools.

Sure people have a responsibility to themselves to engage, but people (esp gamers!!) on the whole follow the path of least resistance. They simply won't work extra hard to build community.

 

 

 

Mindsets? EQ2 allows you set whether you are a casual or hardcore guild, a RP or a progression guild, a mature or family guild, a crafter focused or whatever else guild, or a  combination of any of these and more approaches to the game. These are mindsets, and the vast majority go beyond 'meeting to kill crap'.  They describe the culture of your guild and make it easy for people looking for the same culture to connect.

The guild advertisiment/ application system in that game is great. Have you even seen it, or are we just having a discussion of fact vs 'Lok's world view'?

  TheIronLegion

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/06/12
Posts: 270

Act with wisdom, but act.

9/24/12 8:24:10 AM#63
Originally posted by Lienhart

Wow wow wow. I'm gonna jump on this and just go wtf.

What you are essentially saying is "I didn't bother joining a bunch of friends in real life on the same server or have gone out of the way to make friends on the server". And then you come here crying about it. Dude. =/

+5 internets for this post. Straight to the point. But really, you said pretty much what I want to say, but just more direct.

  TheIronLegion

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/06/12
Posts: 270

Act with wisdom, but act.

9/24/12 8:28:11 AM#64
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Vesavius

Take a look at the robust guild finding tools a game like EQ2 offers. They are excellent. The game dosen't 'do everything for you', but it opens the doors for you to meet other players who want to do the same things and share the same mindset.

...to meet other players that want to kill the same crap in the same place as you.

"Do the same things" only applies because there is no reason to band together to do anything other than kill crap.

"Share the same mindset" would be shearly by accident at best. I can't begin to guess how you would assess such a thing unless you are keeping all 'mindsets" within a small sphere of varying degrees of "kill crap"

 

Great tools for grouping in EQ2. Those tool shave nothing to do with the social aspect of the game - they just put people with solo goals that have to be reached in groups into groups.

 

I disagree.

I hold that community is built from the bottom up by core design to enable the player to connect and have a reason for doing so, but then I said all that before but you just edited it out so I guess you didn't like to take it in as part of the whole point I was making.

 

As I said... The fact remains, community is built or destroyed by core game design in MMORPGs and the tools it offers to facilitate it.

A solo focused, self despendent, fast action game with no social tools will by definition have a harder time building a meaningful community then a group focused, inter dependent, slower tactical game with robust tools.

Sure people have a responsibility to themselves to engage, but people (esp gamers!!) on the whole follow the path of least resistance. They simply won't work extra hard to build community.

 

 

 

Mindsets? EQ2 allows you set whether you are a casual or hardcore guild, a RP or a progression guild, a mature or family guild, a crafter focused or whatever else guild, or a  combination of any of these and more approaches to the game. These are mindsets, and the vast majority go beyond 'meeting to kill crap'.  They describe the culture of your guild and make it easy for people looking for the same culture to connect.

The guild advertisiment/ application system in that game is great. Have you even seen it, or are we just having a discussion of fact vs 'Lok's world view'?

So my neighborhood is made up of a collection of houses or of a collection of good, upstanding people that I enjoy living next to. By your logic it's the game that makes up the community and not the community. People and their communications, whether it be by forums, skype, Ventrilo, or other avenues are what make up a games community. Whether the game fosters them together or they come together on their own is irrelevent. A game doesn't breed the community. The game doesn't control the mindset of the people in it.

 

 

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12112

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

9/24/12 8:29:17 AM#65
Originally posted by Vesavius

The guild advertisiment/ application system in that game is great. Have you even seen it, or are we just having a discussion of fact vs 'Lok's world view'?

Aha! My mistake there. You were talking about the guild finding tools, not the group finding tools. I agree, that guild finder is very well made in EQ2 and does work to achieve the ends you presented. Sorry for the misunderstanding there.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7145

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

9/24/12 10:36:48 AM#66
Originally posted by TheIronLegion
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Vesavius

Take a look at the robust guild finding tools a game like EQ2 offers. They are excellent. The game dosen't 'do everything for you', but it opens the doors for you to meet other players who want to do the same things and share the same mindset.

...to meet other players that want to kill the same crap in the same place as you.

"Do the same things" only applies because there is no reason to band together to do anything other than kill crap.

"Share the same mindset" would be shearly by accident at best. I can't begin to guess how you would assess such a thing unless you are keeping all 'mindsets" within a small sphere of varying degrees of "kill crap"

 

Great tools for grouping in EQ2. Those tool shave nothing to do with the social aspect of the game - they just put people with solo goals that have to be reached in groups into groups.

I hold that community is built from the bottom up by core design to enable the player to connect and have a reason for doing so.

As I said... The fact remains, community is built or destroyed by core game design in MMORPGs and the tools it offers to facilitate it.

A solo focused, self despendent, fast action game with no social tools will by definition have a harder time building a meaningful community then a group focused, inter dependent, slower tactical game with robust tools.

Sure people have a responsibility to themselves to engage, but people (esp gamers!!) on the whole follow the path of least resistance. They simply won't work extra hard to build community.

By your logic it's the game that makes up the community and not the community.

game doesn't control the mindset of the people in it.

 

The point I make is that the game's core design either helps to enable community, or that it dosen't.

 

If your game makes it pointless or difficult to group then the creation of community will be impaired.

 

I ask you to focus on the part I have highliighted in green. It is important.

 

 

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7145

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

9/24/12 10:37:27 AM#67
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Vesavius

The guild advertisiment/ application system in that game is great. Have you even seen it, or are we just having a discussion of fact vs 'Lok's world view'?

Aha! My mistake there. You were talking about the guild finding tools, not the group finding tools. I agree, that guild finder is very well made in EQ2 and does work to achieve the ends you presented. Sorry for the misunderstanding there.

 

No worries, thanks for saying :)

  adam_nox

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/31/06
Posts: 2062

9/24/12 12:29:52 PM#68
Originally posted by botrytis

A.Net has already stated that GvG and guild halls will be put in game in a future patch, after all it is Guild Wars 2. This will go a long way into helping with the guild progression and other issues dealing with guilds.

 

As far as the social aspect of the game, one cannot blame GW2 for that. It is the way our society is - people would rather chat or text on cell phones than meet face to face.  Letter writing, which is an art to be sure, is also lost mostly now. I think that the problems in MMO's are just a reflection of the problem with society in general.

lol an art?  it's just what people did to communicate when they couldn't use a phone.  let's not glorify the stoneage or blame people who have not changed a bit in a thousand years.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

9/24/12 12:38:06 PM#69
I find gw2 far more social than wow type games.

As a guild we can spend a night doing WvW
Or some nights we go do event chains / world bosses.

We don't need to enforce set times where people need to turn up
We don't need to turn people away because "sorry all raid spots are full"
If people log in later they just join in. Great.
  monarc333

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/16/07
Posts: 603

Gizmofusion.com

Screenrag.com

Steamfirst.com

9/24/12 12:59:30 PM#70

A major issue with the social aspect of this game is people are not running the dungeons. Grouping and clearing dungeons is a maor part of any social aspect of mmos. For whatever reason it is, difficulty, not fun, w/e, people just ar not running them. Outside of that I see plenty of social stuff on my server (Tarnished Coast). From spontaneus RP, to DE grouping, to jumping puzzles, there plenty. But, those dungeons man, they are hampering social play.

But we have to remember its only been 30 days. Communities take a little bit to form and solidify on servers. If there is still a problem 3 months down the road then yea its a major problem, but hpefully by then the dungeons will get straigtned out.

  User Deleted
9/24/12 1:06:01 PM#71
Originally posted by TheIronLegion
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Vesavius

Take a look at the robust guild finding tools a game like EQ2 offers. They are excellent. The game dosen't 'do everything for you', but it opens the doors for you to meet other players who want to do the same things and share the same mindset.

...to meet other players that want to kill the same crap in the same place as you.

"Do the same things" only applies because there is no reason to band together to do anything other than kill crap.

"Share the same mindset" would be shearly by accident at best. I can't begin to guess how you would assess such a thing unless you are keeping all 'mindsets" within a small sphere of varying degrees of "kill crap"

 

Great tools for grouping in EQ2. Those tool shave nothing to do with the social aspect of the game - they just put people with solo goals that have to be reached in groups into groups.

 

I disagree.

I hold that community is built from the bottom up by core design to enable the player to connect and have a reason for doing so, but then I said all that before but you just edited it out so I guess you didn't like to take it in as part of the whole point I was making.

 

As I said... The fact remains, community is built or destroyed by core game design in MMORPGs and the tools it offers to facilitate it.

A solo focused, self despendent, fast action game with no social tools will by definition have a harder time building a meaningful community then a group focused, inter dependent, slower tactical game with robust tools.

Sure people have a responsibility to themselves to engage, but people (esp gamers!!) on the whole follow the path of least resistance. They simply won't work extra hard to build community.

 

 

 

Mindsets? EQ2 allows you set whether you are a casual or hardcore guild, a RP or a progression guild, a mature or family guild, a crafter focused or whatever else guild, or a  combination of any of these and more approaches to the game. These are mindsets, and the vast majority go beyond 'meeting to kill crap'.  They describe the culture of your guild and make it easy for people looking for the same culture to connect.

The guild advertisiment/ application system in that game is great. Have you even seen it, or are we just having a discussion of fact vs 'Lok's world view'?

So my neighborhood is made up of a collection of houses or of a collection of good, upstanding people that I enjoy living next to. By your logic it's the game that makes up the community and not the community. People and their communications, whether it be by forums, skype, Ventrilo, or other avenues are what make up a games community. Whether the game fosters them together or they come together on their own is irrelevent. A game doesn't breed the community. The game doesn't control the mindset of the people in it.

 

 

Dont even start going down that community road. I did that last time, and all I got was that its the fact that we are teaching kids wrong that they play this game wrong. That and the community > all. BRB, telling this 5 year old to go play in streets.

  halflife25

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/13/12
Posts: 787

9/24/12 1:19:34 PM#72

What i find interesting is that how this issue is now being played in favor of GW2 when so many fans of other MMOS have been saying all along that every MMO offers a lot of oppertunities to group but it is the players who have to make an effort. Devs won't force players into grouping, that doesn't work anymore. Days of forced grouping are gone and now days it is all about options and choices

Every MMO can be played as a solo experince and at the same time as a social experince. The responsbility lies on the player not the game or devs.

I have to ask though, where were you all when similar  posts were made against MMOS like Rift, Swtor, TSW etc? so now atleast one thing is clear that it is not the game but players to be blamed for lack of social experince. if GW2 couldn't do it no other MMO can.

  adamlin747

Novice Member

Joined: 6/29/05
Posts: 21

9/24/12 1:25:20 PM#73
Tried GW2 great game but like the topic in this thread seems empty because it's not very social.  It seems to be the dont have to work for anything game, everybody wins type thing it's not for me.  Not saying it isnt a good game some people seem to like it but I think I am gonna stick with EQ2 until Everquest Next comes out I am sick of MMO hopping and EQ2 is constantly adding more and more its the best MMO out there IMO.
  botrytis

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2516

9/24/12 1:32:44 PM#74
Originally posted by adam_nox
Originally posted by botrytis

A.Net has already stated that GvG and guild halls will be put in game in a future patch, after all it is Guild Wars 2. This will go a long way into helping with the guild progression and other issues dealing with guilds.

 

As far as the social aspect of the game, one cannot blame GW2 for that. It is the way our society is - people would rather chat or text on cell phones than meet face to face.  Letter writing, which is an art to be sure, is also lost mostly now. I think that the problems in MMO's are just a reflection of the problem with society in general.

lol an art?  it's just what people did to communicate when they couldn't use a phone.  let's not glorify the stoneage or blame people who have not changed a bit in a thousand years.

Let's not glorify technology either. One of the things I have noticed is technology dehumanizes us. It makes us into slaves to the technology.

 

What I am pointing out is the what I mentioned above. On Facebook you 'Friend' people but do you know them? People think that what friends are now - shallow, very shallow.

 

The guild I belong is very social. In fact, most times a majority of the players are on mumble, chatting away about family, kids, whatever. I have met some of them in RL and can consider them friends.

 

Back OT, as people said, you make out of the game what you want. If you want to be social - you chat in map, etc. If you don't want to be social, you don't have to. Don't blame the game for you shortcomings.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7145

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

9/24/12 3:26:07 PM#75
Originally posted by halflife25

Days of forced grouping are gone and now days it is all about options and choices

 

The trouble with that is that no 'forced grouping' rapidly turns into forced soloing.

You strip away one no choice and replace it with another, one that is proven to be bad for community building.

Not what I would call progress.

  bamdorf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/09/09
Posts: 150

9/24/12 3:57:39 PM#76

It's been said before, bears repeating.

 

In EQ for example, I found my first guild in game because many of the same people showed up in the same area of a zone for several days.     People naturally grouped for safety, then got to know each other because there was sufficient down time to talk.   The point was that this happened because it took a long time to go from lvl 12 to 14 at the S. tower in EF. 

People didn't automatically group or automatically form guilds, but the situation lent itself naturally to that progression.   To look at the other side, I was in more than one guild that split up after months because some people decided they wanted to get the the endgame, and left for that type of guild.   In WoW it was my experience that the fast part of the game, getting to cap, didn't lead to much chance to socialize, it was too fast, and few people wanted to take time to do the dungeons.    But then when the cap was hit in a sense the game slowed down as people were doing and redoing the end game stuff, so guilds formed.  (I said, that wasy MY experience, just saying) .  Of course when people got tired of the repetition they dropped out, like me.

So the mechanics of "progression"  whatever that means (leveling or gear grinding or ??) in an MMO to me are the the key drivers to socilaization.   If we are ony going to be together for 3 minutes and then on to the next thing, one is going to have to work very hard to socialize.    The tools for socialization were crude in EQ... no Vent, etc, all chat...but it still happened.   But the features that build community in games like EQ have been trashed for the very reason that people don't want the game to be a chore, i..e, death penalty, slow leveling, downtime, yada yada...

I must be getting old...why do the games have to speed up?    I like to have time to think about what I am doing, and of course my thinker is slowing down... LOL.

 

 

---------------------------
Rose-lipped maidens,
Light-foot lads...

  solarine

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/25/06
Posts: 1204

9/24/12 5:58:26 PM#77
Originally posted by TheIronLegion

 

So my neighborhood is made up of a collection of houses or of a collection of good, upstanding people that I enjoy living next to. By your logic it's the game that makes up the community and not the community. People and their communications, whether it be by forums, skype, Ventrilo, or other avenues are what make up a games community. Whether the game fosters them together or they come together on their own is irrelevent. A game doesn't breed the community. The game doesn't control the mindset of the people in it.

 

 

Actually, that is a perfect example.

Have you lived in a society that is rapidly changing? Where the very system is being changed, turned into something else? Where what the rules (both written and unwritten) you lived by are gone, and replaced by something else?

Your neighborhood does change, and so apparently do your neighbors the "upstanding people". To the point you have a hard time thinking you know them anymore.

Because ultimately, the system does inform what the people feel, their connections and reactions to each other. It does end up influencing your behavior. 

I agree with Vesavius that a game's core systems, to some extent, does the same. It does influence how you conduct yourself, and how you relate to other players, how you see them. 

That's not to say "other people" are these robots just going through bits of code provided by core design, but it does have influence. To me, both logic and experience dictates this.

 

  Fetishist

Novice Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 3

9/25/12 12:52:26 AM#78
Originally posted by Vesavius

It seems sometwhat that the group PvE aspect of the game has been somewhat tacked on... their focus seemed to be PvP and their single player PvE open world. it dosen't seem to be ANet's area of passion at all.

 The game is called Guild Wars...it pretty much tells you what the focus is straight out of the box.

  jayarte

Novice Member

Joined: 8/21/09
Posts: 450

9/25/12 10:09:28 AM#79
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by Karteli
The "saving" player gets experience for saving you :P .. Take that away ....:P


Nobody says anything either way ... either they pass you and it's nothing personal .. or they save you and get the xp then run away.  Nobody even knew your name.

Originally posted by Bladestrom
I usually say ty, and on more than one occasion I've then went on to help the person who helped me, and then grouped and got chatting. Hell of a lot better than some arse taking advantage of you dying to 'steal' a node then bugger off without raising a finger to help. It takes 2 to socialise :)

agree - I say ty too

even before i knew you got experience rezzing,

I was rezzing players because its a helpful thing to do for another player

Same here.  I enjoy helping players, and it's pleasant to receive help, too.  I always say thanks and I do enjoy if people thank me, because it feels like a fuller human interaction that way.

 

I do know what the OP means, however, because I've noticed the same trend that other players tend not to chat if they're doing dynamic events or whatever.  Sometimes I'll finally make it to up to a ... darn, what are they called?  Viewpoint thingy?  Vista, that's it.  Anyway, I'll be chatting on my way to the viewpoint, and people just don't reply.  I find that so strange.  It's like everyone's in a rush, or distracted, or something.  Don't know what it is.  It's not specific to GW2, though, I've noticed this trend for a few years now, and it seems to get worse.  Even when I go back to WoW for my brief visits I see the same thing; people not really wanting to engage with other players.  Every one hell-bent on achieving their virtual goal.  Makes me feel a bit sad.

 

Same thing in a guild, actually, unless you get an unusual one.  You log in, say hello, and unless you're the guild leader 75%+ of the guild won't respond, even if they're only hanging about in town or something.  It's a shame because the reason I play mmo's rather than single player rpg's is for the interactions with other players.

  loulaki

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/20/11
Posts: 808

9/26/12 3:33:18 AM#80

please enough with stalking systems ...

 

search in guild forums and you will find, a guild who spam in local chat to recruit is a failed guild, usuall low in MMOs xD

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