Originally posted by Aelious
Rungard

I see what you're saying but if you look at gankers as criminals, PvEers as victims and regular PvPers (using gankers as dynamic content) as police you still have a victim first. Better to put all the criminals in the same space as all the police :)

 so in a game where there are approximately 25 pver's (which includes the pvp policers/blues) and 1 or so Reds/Gankers, how often do you feel you would be victimized if you had tools to prevent it? Not very often i would imagine. They would have a very difficult time getting close to new players, they would be vastly outnumbered, and hunted.  You would know they are out there, they could attack at anytime, but the probababilities would be slim. 

and what value would you then put on these types of players if their purpose was nurtured instead of scorned, by allowing them ( with competition among themselfves for who gets to do this) to activate npc content, i.e seiging your castle, invading your mine, blowing up your bridge etc.

it would no longer be the role of victim and greifer. Every advantage would be stacked against the hardcore, which s the way it should be. They would be content providers.

why waste a perfectly useful resource? Everything has its place if used properly.

give me 50 million and ill show you..lol

I'm still waiting for a PvE focused sandbox myself. I love the concept of skill-based games, but every current offering is FFA full loot PvP.

Sorry, but I want to mine / farm / lumberjack / craft / etc. without worrying about some asshat with GM in 'stabby-stabby skill' julienning my liver and taking all my hard-earned stuff for shits and giggles.

Originally posted by coretex666

Originally posted by AdamTM

Originally posted by coretex666

Originally posted by AdamTM

Originally posted by coretex666

I went with both. I like PVE and PvP in WoW.

EDIT: So that I believe it can be done well in one game.

Yes but you can't deny that PVP takes a back-seat to PVE in WoW, no matter if you like it or not.

PVP is an afterthought in the design of the game, WoW is at heart a PVE game with tacked on PVP features just like EVE is a PVP game with tacked on PVE features.

Why do you think so? I do not claim you are wrong. I just play WoW on regular basis and I do not feel that PVE is so overwhelming.

You have some dungeons, raids, quests on the PVE side and BGs, arena (2v2, 3v3, 5v5), rated BGs, OWPvP, battles (e.g. Tol Barad) on the other side.

You have different type of gear for each activity. You have different spec for each activity (not necessarily, but you do have abilities/talents that have more utilization in PVE or PvP).

When you decide to do PvP, you have similar queues, so that it is not more time consuming to get involved in PvP.

You have achievements for both, PVE and PvP.

You have PVE and PvP servers.

I am just wondering what makes you think that PvP takes a back-seat.

The whole game is balanced/designed around PVE.

To do PVP you have to do PVE first (PVP doesn't give progression)

Talents/abilities are PVE centred and the Frost Mage is the single most persuasive argument for it.

Blizz tried to mitigate the problems with dual-specs and the new talent trees but it still worked out the same way it was before, a frostmage in a raid is mostly not useful, unless you need a lot of trash AOE-CC. 

Then they tried to mitigate that by designing encounters/ballance with their new mantra "bring the player not the class" so they homogenized most classes.

Every time blizzard does something to PVE ballance it fucks their PVP ballance and vice versa.

etc.

How long have you been playing WoW?

Since day 1 :D

Why would you have to do PVE first? You get exp for doing PVP, you get currency to purchase PVP gear from PVP. All you need to do is to get first several levels, so that you can PVP. Since like level 10, you can progress all the way to max level and max PVP gear solely by doing PVP.

You can also get to max level by doing only crafting, its still not Minecraft or crafting-focused.

The question is how does PVP tie into the game? It doesnt.

The PVP is segregated away, its separate, might as well be another game entirely.

I think its why Bloodline Champions and now Forge exist.

Originally posted by rungard

Originally posted by Aelious
Rungard

I see what you're saying but if you look at gankers as criminals, PvEers as victims and regular PvPers (using gankers as dynamic content) as police you still have a victim first. Better to put all the criminals in the same space as all the police :)

 so in a game where there are approximately 25 pver's (which includes the pvp policers/blues) and 1 or so Reds/Gankers, how often do you feel you would be victimized if you had tools to prevent it? Not very often i would imagine. They would have a very difficult time getting close to new players, they would be vastly outnumbered, and hunted.  You would know they are out there, they could attack at anytime, but the probababilities would be slim. 

and what value would you then put on these types of players if their purpose was nurtured instead of scorned, by allowing them ( with competition among themselfves for who gets to do this) to activate npc content, i.e seiging your castle, invading your mine, blowing up your bridge etc.

it would no longer be the role of victim and greifer. Every advantage would be stacked against the hardcore, which s the way it should be. They would be content providers.

why waste a perfectly useful resource? Everything has its place if used properly.

give me 50 million and ill show you..lol

 

Afaik Voyage Century has just about everything you listed.

Even though I like having open world PVP in games I play, I still voted PVE.

That's because:

1) We need more purely-PVE group based MMOs.

2) Developers apparently have a huge difficulty with balancing the game when they have to address both and make odd decisions that add up to nerfs upon nerfs.

3) I dislike where the PVE+PVP games are going design-wise, turning PVP more and more into mini-games, which I have no interest in.

Originally posted by AdamTM

Originally posted by bcbully
Both if you want to play in a virtual world,, andnot some hodge podge of parts glued together. Leaving one out is even worse.

A virtual world can have rules that do not encompass PVP or PVE.

Agreed.

Originally posted by AdamTM

Originally posted by coretex666

Originally posted by AdamTM

Originally posted by coretex666

Originally posted by AdamTM

Originally posted by coretex666

I went with both. I like PVE and PvP in WoW.

EDIT: So that I believe it can be done well in one game.

Yes but you can't deny that PVP takes a back-seat to PVE in WoW, no matter if you like it or not.

PVP is an afterthought in the design of the game, WoW is at heart a PVE game with tacked on PVP features just like EVE is a PVP game with tacked on PVE features.

Why do you think so? I do not claim you are wrong. I just play WoW on regular basis and I do not feel that PVE is so overwhelming.

You have some dungeons, raids, quests on the PVE side and BGs, arena (2v2, 3v3, 5v5), rated BGs, OWPvP, battles (e.g. Tol Barad) on the other side.

You have different type of gear for each activity. You have different spec for each activity (not necessarily, but you do have abilities/talents that have more utilization in PVE or PvP).

When you decide to do PvP, you have similar queues, so that it is not more time consuming to get involved in PvP.

You have achievements for both, PVE and PvP.

You have PVE and PvP servers.

I am just wondering what makes you think that PvP takes a back-seat.

The whole game is balanced/designed around PVE.

To do PVP you have to do PVE first (PVP doesn't give progression)

Talents/abilities are PVE centred and the Frost Mage is the single most persuasive argument for it.

Blizz tried to mitigate the problems with dual-specs and the new talent trees but it still worked out the same way it was before, a frostmage in a raid is mostly not useful, unless you need a lot of trash AOE-CC. 

Then they tried to mitigate that by designing encounters/ballance with their new mantra "bring the player not the class" so they homogenized most classes.

Every time blizzard does something to PVE ballance it fucks their PVP ballance and vice versa.

etc.

How long have you been playing WoW?

Since day 1 :D

Why would you have to do PVE first? You get exp for doing PVP, you get currency to purchase PVP gear from PVP. All you need to do is to get first several levels, so that you can PVP. Since like level 10, you can progress all the way to max level and max PVP gear solely by doing PVP.

You can also get to max level by doing only crafting, its still not Minecraft or crafting-focused.

The question is how does PVP tie into the game? It doesnt.

The PVP is segregated away, its separate, might as well be another game entirely.

I think its why Bloodline Champions and now Forge exist.

I always thought that the PvP is tied into the game lore-wise. There is this conflict between alliance and the horde.

By segregated you mean that the BGs, Arena, etc are in a separate zone? There is still the OWPvP. You are basically exploring Azeroth and suddenly, you run into enemies and can PvP them which does not necessarily seem to be another game entirely.

As I mentioned before, I do not claim you are wrong. I also do not claim it is PvP oriented game. All I am saying is that I do not see how the PVE is so much overwhelming

Originally posted by Asuran24
For pve and pvp balance to exit you need to have a method of balancing each independently, with out the balancing of one breaking the other. Which would mean a dual value system which each ability have one set of value for each (pve, and pvp.) that only influence that playstyle. After you can independently balance the systems for pvp an pve, you can start working on the sytems to govern the pvp in the game with risks, and rewards, and meaningful reasons for pvping, since the op/imbalance issues would not be there now. It is a matter of how well the game is balanced, and how well you re-balance it when it get out fo control. alot of the rest is just bonuses that wear off when you relise how limited an imbalanced it is.

Yes but that gives you exactly what I was implying in my OP.

Two separate games.

Originally posted by Aelious
Rungard

We may be talking about two seperate things. In my example before responding to you I figured if you had the same amount of OWPvP regions as strictly PvE regions, both featuring a full complement of content, in one gameworld there would be no need for secondary PvP systems that are tacked on after initial development.

Those who want constant PvP while doing PvE can have it while those that want to be left in peace can stay that way. Of course there will be those of us in the middle who like to PvP but don't want to be forced into it 24/7. By creating seperate content for both in the same gameworld there would be an incentive to those PvP part timers to head into dangerous water and "join the fight" by way of PvE exploration. This in turn would create the same PvP dynamic content you were talking about.

im predominantly a pver, but i also like pvp. Im not saying that your model doesnt work, it does well for themeparks.  

im far from sold on the sandbox front though. You need a reason to build a great wall and place a bunch of guards on it. Developers dont have the resources, and scripts dont quite cut it do they?

i just believe you need a bit of everything integrated for a world to exist. Not saying it has to be "full loot" or "Free for all". We know nothing chases players away faster. That dos not mean however that pvp must be 100% seperate either.

Originally posted by coretex666

Originally posted by AdamTM

Originally posted by coretex666

Originally posted by AdamTM

Originally posted by coretex666

Originally posted by AdamTM

Originally posted by coretex666

I went with both. I like PVE and PvP in WoW.

EDIT: So that I believe it can be done well in one game.

Yes but you can't deny that PVP takes a back-seat to PVE in WoW, no matter if you like it or not.

PVP is an afterthought in the design of the game, WoW is at heart a PVE game with tacked on PVP features just like EVE is a PVP game with tacked on PVE features.

Why do you think so? I do not claim you are wrong. I just play WoW on regular basis and I do not feel that PVE is so overwhelming.

You have some dungeons, raids, quests on the PVE side and BGs, arena (2v2, 3v3, 5v5), rated BGs, OWPvP, battles (e.g. Tol Barad) on the other side.

You have different type of gear for each activity. You have different spec for each activity (not necessarily, but you do have abilities/talents that have more utilization in PVE or PvP).

When you decide to do PvP, you have similar queues, so that it is not more time consuming to get involved in PvP.

You have achievements for both, PVE and PvP.

You have PVE and PvP servers.

I am just wondering what makes you think that PvP takes a back-seat.

The whole game is balanced/designed around PVE.

To do PVP you have to do PVE first (PVP doesn't give progression)

Talents/abilities are PVE centred and the Frost Mage is the single most persuasive argument for it.

Blizz tried to mitigate the problems with dual-specs and the new talent trees but it still worked out the same way it was before, a frostmage in a raid is mostly not useful, unless you need a lot of trash AOE-CC. 

Then they tried to mitigate that by designing encounters/ballance with their new mantra "bring the player not the class" so they homogenized most classes.

Every time blizzard does something to PVE ballance it fucks their PVP ballance and vice versa.

etc.

How long have you been playing WoW?

Since day 1 :D

Why would you have to do PVE first? You get exp for doing PVP, you get currency to purchase PVP gear from PVP. All you need to do is to get first several levels, so that you can PVP. Since like level 10, you can progress all the way to max level and max PVP gear solely by doing PVP.

You can also get to max level by doing only crafting, its still not Minecraft or crafting-focused.

The question is how does PVP tie into the game? It doesnt.

The PVP is segregated away, its separate, might as well be another game entirely.

I think its why Bloodline Champions and now Forge exist.

I always thought that the PvP is tied into the game lore-wise. There is this conflict between alliance and the horde.

By segregated you mean that the BGs, Arena, etc are in a separate zone? There is still the OWPvP. You are basically exploring Azeroth and suddenly, you run into enemies and can PvP them which does not necessarily seem to be another game entirely.

As I mentioned before, I do not claim you are wrong. I also do not claim it is PvP oriented game. All I am saying is that I do not see how the PVE is so much overwhelming

If you dont claim im wrong, why are you arguing with me? Certainly you think my assessment is -wrong-, you say so in your next sentence.

I'm talking about mechanics not about lore.

Afaik, vanilla didn't even have BGs or separate PVP. Over time, PVP got segregated out of the game into its own separate niche. 

If the PVP was tied into the mechanics, it wouldn't need separate zones/instances, servers and flags.

The PVP would actually -do- something in relation to the PVE.

If PvP had been more considerate to PvE I would have choose both.  I play archer / rogue type characters and IN EVERY GAME I HAVE EVER PLAYED I HAVE BEEN GIMPED because of the PvP contingent whining about stats.  I am so sick of it I have grown to hate PvP'ers.

Plus I don't want ganked.  I spent all day on that quest chain I don't want slammed back to the starter point so I can go back again to get ganked yet again.  Total not fun.

Originally posted by AdamTM

Originally posted by coretex666

Originally posted by AdamTM

Originally posted by coretex666

Originally posted by AdamTM

Originally posted by coretex666

Originally posted by AdamTM

Originally posted by coretex666

I went with both. I like PVE and PvP in WoW.

EDIT: So that I believe it can be done well in one game.

Yes but you can't deny that PVP takes a back-seat to PVE in WoW, no matter if you like it or not.

PVP is an afterthought in the design of the game, WoW is at heart a PVE game with tacked on PVP features just like EVE is a PVP game with tacked on PVE features.

Why do you think so? I do not claim you are wrong. I just play WoW on regular basis and I do not feel that PVE is so overwhelming.

You have some dungeons, raids, quests on the PVE side and BGs, arena (2v2, 3v3, 5v5), rated BGs, OWPvP, battles (e.g. Tol Barad) on the other side.

You have different type of gear for each activity. You have different spec for each activity (not necessarily, but you do have abilities/talents that have more utilization in PVE or PvP).

When you decide to do PvP, you have similar queues, so that it is not more time consuming to get involved in PvP.

You have achievements for both, PVE and PvP.

You have PVE and PvP servers.

I am just wondering what makes you think that PvP takes a back-seat.

The whole game is balanced/designed around PVE.

To do PVP you have to do PVE first (PVP doesn't give progression)

Talents/abilities are PVE centred and the Frost Mage is the single most persuasive argument for it.

Blizz tried to mitigate the problems with dual-specs and the new talent trees but it still worked out the same way it was before, a frostmage in a raid is mostly not useful, unless you need a lot of trash AOE-CC. 

Then they tried to mitigate that by designing encounters/ballance with their new mantra "bring the player not the class" so they homogenized most classes.

Every time blizzard does something to PVE ballance it fucks their PVP ballance and vice versa.

etc.

How long have you been playing WoW?

Since day 1 :D

Why would you have to do PVE first? You get exp for doing PVP, you get currency to purchase PVP gear from PVP. All you need to do is to get first several levels, so that you can PVP. Since like level 10, you can progress all the way to max level and max PVP gear solely by doing PVP.

You can also get to max level by doing only crafting, its still not Minecraft or crafting-focused.

The question is how does PVP tie into the game? It doesnt.

The PVP is segregated away, its separate, might as well be another game entirely.

I think its why Bloodline Champions and now Forge exist.

I always thought that the PvP is tied into the game lore-wise. There is this conflict between alliance and the horde.

By segregated you mean that the BGs, Arena, etc are in a separate zone? There is still the OWPvP. You are basically exploring Azeroth and suddenly, you run into enemies and can PvP them which does not necessarily seem to be another game entirely.

As I mentioned before, I do not claim you are wrong. I also do not claim it is PvP oriented game. All I am saying is that I do not see how the PVE is so much overwhelming

If you dont claim im wrong, why are you arguing with me? Certainly you think my assessment is -wrong-, you say so in your next sentence.

I'm talking about mechanics not about lore.

Afaik, vanilla didn't even have BGs or separate PVP. Over time, PVP got segregated out of the game into its own separate niche. 

If the PVP was tied into the mechanics, it wouldn't need separate zones/instances, servers and flags.

The PVP would actually -do- something in relation to the PVE.

 You look at the issue from a different perspective. Maybe in the context in which you speak, you are right. Maybe I am wrong, so you may be right. I am discussing, not arguing. It does not need to be a fight, does it.

GW 2 has PvP separated from the world. Is it also a PVE oriented game? I think it is generally considered to be a PvP game. The way you define PVE oriented game, it would probably fit into this category.

Originally posted by Aelious
Rungard

The thought of equally sized but seperate PvP enabled and toggled regions was from a sandbox frame of mind as you would need to give breathing room if both are to have equal share. This would be a big, open world without reasonable physical boundaries (mountain ranges, etc.). There would be races or factions (player made or not), some opposed to others that would realistically create war zones. These would not just be open spaces to PvP. They would have the same sort of landscapes and activities as non PvP areas.

The ability to build and have guards etc. would not really be a factor. You could build in any region, war zone or not, and go from there. The idea would be worse in a themepark IMO. When I say "regions" I'm not meaning seperate areas like WoW, Rift, etc. The lines would be invisible across the terrain and just notify you if you crossed it.

I would enjoy this type of sandboxy style game anyways. It would create more dynamics which is what I like about sandbox features to begin with.

why would i bother to build anything. It has no effect in the pve area, and the pvp area will be filed to the brim with hardcore goons which will destroy everything i build asap.

96% pve and 4% pvp. You only need 4% or so to provide endless content to the 96%. Less and is just a pve game, more makes it a gankfest.

thats how i see it.

Originally posted by rungard

Originally posted by Aelious
Rungard

The thought of equally sized but seperate PvP enabled and toggled regions was from a sandbox frame of mind as you would need to give breathing room if both are to have equal share. This would be a big, open world without reasonable physical boundaries (mountain ranges, etc.). There would be races or factions (player made or not), some opposed to others that would realistically create war zones. These would not just be open spaces to PvP. They would have the same sort of landscapes and activities as non PvP areas.

The ability to build and have guards etc. would not really be a factor. You could build in any region, war zone or not, and go from there. The idea would be worse in a themepark IMO. When I say "regions" I'm not meaning seperate areas like WoW, Rift, etc. The lines would be invisible across the terrain and just notify you if you crossed it.

I would enjoy this type of sandboxy style game anyways. It would create more dynamics which is what I like about sandbox features to begin with.

why would i bother to build anything. It has no effect in the pve area, and the pvp area will be filed to the brim with hardcore goons which will destroy everything i build asap.

96% pve and 4% pvp. You only need 4% or so to provide endless content to the 96%. Less and is just a pve game, more makes it a gankfest.

thats how i see it.

 Yeah and that's why strictly PvP gamers don't get the quality of game they want.  You need the PvEers as a buffer between the gankers and the other PvPers? So the 4% of PvPers use the 96% as their content and the 96% don't appreciate it and leave, it's not the other way around IMO.  Spending time and money to be someone else's content is no go and unless you give them an equal space to do their thing, or choose to head into PvP, I don't think they will stay very long.

On the purpose of building structures in PvE it would be the same motivation as PvP IMO, just to do it.  It's the same idea as PvP.  You engage in PvP to fight other people.  Yes, land grabs/destroying structures is an added bonus but there are plenty of games that feature structure building that don't even have an MMO combat system.  Last time I checked more people were playing those than MMORPGs lol.

Originally posted by AdamTM

I'm asking the question because we have seen time and time again that games that feature both PVE and PVP rarely do both right. 

It seems that whenever a MMORPG tries to do both, it ends up neglecting one or the other, which is unsurprising as the two stand in a somewhat oposite place (one is directly competitive with other players while the other is cooperative).

Thats not to say that cooperative-competitition doesn't exist (for example high level competitition in raiding), but its not the same competition that dominating other players directly ingame is.

Now i enjoy both PVP and PVE, but rarely do I enjoy it in the same game.

Do you think the remedy would be to create separate, more niche games instead of trying to be everything for everyone?

I think its pretty obvious fromn the poll so far that the average MMO gamer is not a Forced PvP fan.  I myself put both but there needs to be clear lines of demarcations and PvP should never be forced.