Originally posted by SuperDonk

 

Personally I don't care if a guild wants to only have LGBT members, but then what do you do about guild that wants whites only? Obviously that would not be allowed.

Or simply a guild that declares itself  to be "Straight Friendly" or  "Straight Only".  Both of which would undoubtedly be reported en masse post-haste by some of the staunchest supporters of "LGBT Friendly" and "LBGT Only" guilds. Which is quite ironic.

The fact is, you don't combat discrimination with discrimination.

In fact, I'm going to just say it as it is.

Many homosexuals constantly demand to be treated no different than anyone else, which is fine and as it should be.

Then they turn right around and have "Gay Pride parades",  "LGBT parades", "rainbow coalitions", and "LGBT guilds".

So while demanding to be treated the same, they also demand to be acknowledged and treated as someone special.

Try having a "Straight Pride"/"Black Pride"/"White Pride"/etc. parade and see how fast you're accused of being racist/homophobic/insensitive/hateful/etc. See how  the civil lawsuits come shortly after also.

The caring part is simple.  It's no different than somebody starting a White only guild, it's no different than somebody starting a Catholic only guild, it's no different than somebody starting a Male only guild, etc, etc, etc.  It's not like starting a guild for folks that share a love of stamp collecting or prefer Ford over Chevy trucks.

Rather than seeking to form a guild that discriminates - why not form a guild that does not tolerate discrimination?  Form a guild that does not tolerate hate, etc, etc, etc...

...just don't make it one that prefers Ford over Chevy trucks, cause that would just be silly.  :)

Bah, you can make a White Pride guild if you wanted to. Thing is, you shouldn't advertise it as such or name it like that since it is frowned upon. You can still accept invites and kick people without stating any reason - you don't owe an explanation to anyone.

I think the name of the guild is provocative, and Blizzard should've forced them to change it. They can still be a "LGBT" guild but under a different name.

I also wonder the need to make such a guild since they are not much different from everyone else.

Well, race isn't a really good example to any point, because people are born gay or lesbian .. they are not born racists or religious fanaticals - this is learned through life.

You can learn a particular political / racist / religous standpoint... but you can not learn to be lesbian or gay .. it just happens.

Originally posted by Karteli

Well, race isn't a really good example to any point, because people are born gay or lesbian .. they are not born racists or religious fanaticals - this is learned through life.

 

You can learn a particular political / racist / religous standpoint... but you can not learn to be lesbian or gay .. it just happens.

You cannot learn to be black or White either.... Plus I could debate the issue of "being born" gay. In some cases you are correct,in others its a 'learned' behavior.

Regardless, you want a Guild which excludes people because of THEIR sexual orientation- Yet want your "rights" and feel nobody should say anything "hurtful"- If I made a Staight Only guild and excluded Gays on the basis of their sexuality, is that okay? Personally its NOT okay and I would never start such a Guild. The same should apply.

-And this isnt personal. I am sure I would like playing with many of the members in this fictional Guild and honestly I get along far better with gays than Christians (a Christian Guilod would be pure Hell for me lol)- I dont care who you sleep with or what your fetishis are. Hope you dont care who I sleep with and what my fetisis are.

We are either all Human beings or Not.

Originally posted by Karteli

Well, race isn't a really good example to any point, because people are born gay or lesbian .. they are not born racists or religious fanaticals - this is learned through life.

 

You can learn a particular political / racist / religous standpoint... but you can not learn to be lesbian or gay .. it just happens.

Erm people are just that, born to race. being part of a specific race is loose from being or not being a racist. 

Also it is also not true people are born gay or lesbian exclusively. Enviroment also plays a role to some extend. If you are going to talk for all than it is a mixture of Genes and Enviroment

Originally posted by Karteli
Well, race isn't a really good example to any point, because people are born gay or lesbian .. they are not born racists or religious fanaticals - this is learned through experience.

  That isn't true.  There is no science to support the ideal that people are born gay.  Certainly there have been studies that indicate chemical conditions in a person may be present from birth that can be a contributing factor in sexual preference.  But each of these studies also acknowledge that other people have the same chemical balance and have entirely different sexual preferences.  Furthermore, even if we PROVED that you can be born with a sexual preference...it still wouldn't be all-encompassing.  Just because one person was genuinely born with the correct combination of biological conditions to make them gay, you'd have others who simply chose to be.  See, life experience can also change your biological state.  This can be seen in simple ways.  Men forced to lift weights for a minute and watch action films get a boost of testosterone.  The same men forced to wear a dress and make cookies see a loss of it.  Over time, these chemical changes become more permanent.  Your body tries to find a stable state and maintain it.  So a person who was kicked around by the opposite sex might choose to avoid them.  In time they might also begin to stop doing things they would have, otherwise, been doing to attract that sex.  Not even intentionally...just a simple lifestyle change for a time.  These things would change their body chemistry slowly. 

  I won't bother with saying more.  I'm not shooting down the ideal people are born gay.  I'm saying we don't know.  And even if we did, the biological reasons for it to BE true could be affected by other things so you'd have no way to know who was born gay.  Hell, I've met people who just played around at being gay for a time because they had a hard life and it was their way of understanding it.  Didn't work out for em, so they obviously weren't born gay at all.  But you'd have had a hard time figuring that out for a bit there.

Also, since we are talking about how life experience can control our biology and what shapes us into what we are....

You CAN be born a racist.  You can be born into a racist family.  Your entire understanding of the world is formed around it, and by the time you have other influences that you actually REGARD seriously...that understanding will take years to reverse.  Even when you do change your understanding, the inclination to look at other races differently will remain.  Slight things like moving away from black men and covering your wallet will persist long after you understand that they are just people with motivations like your own.  Our experiences as children STRONGLY define us, and its very hard to break away from that.

Originally posted by SuperDonk

My opinion - people can make whatever guild they want to, and invite whatever players they want  to. If a LGBT guild only wants to invite LGBT players, fine by me.

 

The only question I have is how will they be able to tell who is or isn't LGBT? My guess - they invite anyone who will tolerate thier conversations and lifestyle regardless if they are actually gay or not.

Lets make a hate guild and see what happends, and observe how "equal" things are

jezz I "hate" people who hate LGBT people and those who are against equal rights, I mean people should have their point of view, as long as I agree with it, and if you dont agree with it, then your wrong, but I respect that, becaue wrong people are equal to right people, and right and wrong is just an illusion, and all people are the same 1 person..............blah blah blah

Originally posted by Gishgeron
\

Also, since we are talking about how life experience can control our biology and what shapes us into what we are....

 

You CAN be born a racist.  You can be born into a racist family.  Your entire understanding of the world is formed around it, and by the time you have other influences that you actually REGARD seriously...that understand will take years to reverse.  Even when you do change your understanding, the inclination to look at other races differently will remain.  Slight things like moving away from black men and covering your wallet will persist long after you understand that they are just people with motivations like your own.  Our experiences as children STRONGLY define us, and its very hard to break away from that.

ZZzzzttt!

You are grown up to be a racist, you are not born as one.

As far as being lesbian or gay as something acquired in life, I know you're wrong.  You are essentially someone from the outside telling everyone on the inside how stuff works.  Gay and lesbians know they are different before they even start preschool.  There was little to be learned before that point.

Originally posted by Karteli

Originally posted by Gishgeron
\

Also, since we are talking about how life experience can control our biology and what shapes us into what we are....

 

You CAN be born a racist.  You can be born into a racist family.  Your entire understanding of the world is formed around it, and by the time you have other influences that you actually REGARD seriously...that understand will take years to reverse.  Even when you do change your understanding, the inclination to look at other races differently will remain.  Slight things like moving away from black men and covering your wallet will persist long after you understand that they are just people with motivations like your own.  Our experiences as children STRONGLY define us, and its very hard to break away from that.

ZZzzzttt!

 

You are grown up to be a racist, you are not born as one.

 

As far as being lesbian or gay as something acquired in life, I know you're wrong.  You are essentially someone from the outside telling everyone on the inside how stuff works.  Gay and lesbians know they are different before they even start preschool.  There was little to be learned before that point.

Therefore they are special ahnd deserve special rights and privladge above the unwashed massed of "the majority."

Even if you are correct about all of them "knowing" they were born that way- Who you have sex with does not make you "special". Its sex bro- Everyone has it (sometimes even alone =O )

WHO CARES? If you feel the need to broadcast that you like to have sex with the same sex- What is your goal in doing this? How does this improve the GW2 game experience? What does this have to do with gaming...Period.

We get it. Your Gay. We dont care. =/

Originally posted by VirusDancer

The caring part is simple.  It's no different than somebody starting a White only guild, it's no different than somebody starting a Catholic only guild, it's no different than somebody starting a Male only guild, etc, etc, etc.  It's not like starting a guild for folks that share a love of stamp collecting or prefer Ford over Chevy trucks.

Rather than seeking to form a guild that discriminates - why not form a guild that does not tolerate discrimination?  Form a guild that does not tolerate hate, etc, etc, etc...

...just don't make it one that prefers Ford over Chevy trucks, cause that would just be silly.  :)

Tbh, i think most guilds are male only whether they mean to be or not :)

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

Therefore they are special ahnd deserve special rights and privladge above the unwashed massed of "the majority."

Even if you are correct about all of them "knowing" they were born that way- Who you have sex with does not make you "special". Its sex bro- Everyone has it (sometimes even alone =O )

WHO CARES? If you feel the need to broadcast that you like to have sex with the same sex- What is your goal in doing this? How does this improve the GW2 game experience? What does this have to do with gaming...Period.

We get it. Your Gay. We dont care. =/

You are a good example of the crap gays & lesbian people have to be put through.  I never said I was lesbian or gay, but you accused me of it, through your ineptitue for reading.

Oh btw, this was not even a GW2 forum, so uhh ... it's not improving GW2? Lulz :-) /fail

Originally posted by Karteli

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

Therefore they are special ahnd deserve special rights and privladge above the unwashed massed of "the majority."

Even if you are correct about all of them "knowing" they were born that way- Who you have sex with does not make you "special". Its sex bro- Everyone has it (sometimes even alone =O )

WHO CARES? If you feel the need to broadcast that you like to have sex with the same sex- What is your goal in doing this? How does this improve the GW2 game experience? What does this have to do with gaming...Period.

We get it. Your Gay. We dont care. =/

You are a good example of the crap gay people have to be put through.  I never said I was lesbian or gay, but you accused me of it, through your ineptitue for reading.

 

Oh btw, this was not even a GW2 forum, so uhh ,,, it's not improving GW2? Lulz :-) /fail

...Of coarse I assume you are gay hence asking about making a Gay guild- If I started a thread saying  "White Only guild" will you assume I might be an American Indian?

If it walks like a duck....

I mentioned GW2 since its the only time I have ever seen these Guilds advertised (like three last week I think)- So replace where I said GW2 with "Any game" and my point still stands.

I believe in equality... Thats not enough for the "protected" people I guess. The "crap" people have to put up with from me is being treated totally equal. I like and dislike people on their merits, not who they bed.

Originally posted by Karteli

Originally posted by Gishgeron
\

Also, since we are talking about how life experience can control our biology and what shapes us into what we are....

 

You CAN be born a racist.  You can be born into a racist family.  Your entire understanding of the world is formed around it, and by the time you have other influences that you actually REGARD seriously...that understand will take years to reverse.  Even when you do change your understanding, the inclination to look at other races differently will remain.  Slight things like moving away from black men and covering your wallet will persist long after you understand that they are just people with motivations like your own.  Our experiences as children STRONGLY define us, and its very hard to break away from that.

ZZzzzttt!

 

You are grown up to be a racist, you are not born as one.

 

As far as being lesbian or gay as something acquired in life, I know you're wrong.  You are essentially someone from the outside telling everyone on the inside how stuff works.  Gay and lesbians know they are gay before they even start preschool.  There was little to be learned before that point.

  Just because YOUR experience is not that does not mean others haven't had it.  I know people who HAVE.  I even said I didn't shoot down the ideal a person could not be born gay.  But I know lots of people.  Of them, I've met several camps of people from that spectrum and they have different experiences.  My point, if you'd cared to pay any attention, is that YOU (used as a generalization, you meaning anybody viewing a person and considering sexuality) would have no definite way to know for absolute certain if said person was actually born a certain way or chose a certain path in life.  If you honestly don't know ANYONE that feels differently then you then I would suggest speaking to more people.  I've seen all kinds, and very few people have the same experience at all. 

  I'd also question knowing a sexuality before preschool.  Most kids are pretty gender neutral, and I don't recall actively thinking about women in a sexual way till WAYYYYYY after preschool.  I won't be so brash as to say other indicators weren't present....but I WOULD say that there were more contributing factors for THOSE than just "what I was born with".  I had questions about women and their bodies, but I also had a dad with a totally easy to reach porn stash.  That and women had different bodies than I did.  Its logical to assume you'd be interested in diffferences as a child.  Who knows, though?  I can say that, for certain, I knew my sexuality going in to middle school.  Probably elementary...its hard to tell at that point.  Mannerisms started forming then in regard to attracting the opposite sex.  But we learn those mannerisms from our peers too.  I feel more certain of middle school....5-8th grade. 

  Remember that you do not speak for all people.  I didn't even try to speak for all people.  I said that your statement is not true.  There is no absolute in regard to sexuality and birth.  We can discuss individual experiences, but those are not absolutes that we can apply to all people.  You said all people are born with their sexuality.  Maybe you were, perhaps you have some massively advanced sexual identity that was known to you early.  Not everyone had that experience.  I didn't have that experience.  Many of my friends did not have that experience.  Science does not support that in any way.  So its a pretty safe bet that its not true applied to everyone.

Originally posted by Matticus75

Originally posted by SuperDonk

My opinion - people can make whatever guild they want to, and invite whatever players they want  to. If a LGBT guild only wants to invite LGBT players, fine by me.

 

The only question I have is how will they be able to tell who is or isn't LGBT? My guess - they invite anyone who will tolerate thier conversations and lifestyle regardless if they are actually gay or not.

Lets make a hate guild and see what happends, and observe how "equal" things are

 

jezz I "hate" people who hate LGBT people and those who are against equal rights, I mean people should have their point of view, as long as I agree with it, and if you dont agree with it, then your wrong, but I respect that, becaue wrong people are equal to right people, and right and wrong is just an illusion, and all people are the same 1 person..............blah blah blah

 Hmm, I read this like 5 times and still don't understand what you are trying to say.

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

Originally posted by Karteli

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

Therefore they are special ahnd deserve special rights and privladge above the unwashed massed of "the majority."

Even if you are correct about all of them "knowing" they were born that way- Who you have sex with does not make you "special". Its sex bro- Everyone has it (sometimes even alone =O )

WHO CARES? If you feel the need to broadcast that you like to have sex with the same sex- What is your goal in doing this? How does this improve the GW2 game experience? What does this have to do with gaming...Period.

We get it. Your Gay. We dont care. =/

You are a good example of the crap gay people have to be put through.  I never said I was lesbian or gay, but you accused me of it, through your ineptitue for reading.

 

Oh btw, this was not even a GW2 forum, so uhh ,,, it's not improving GW2? Lulz :-) /fail

...Of coarse I assume you are gay hence asking about making a Gay guild- If I started a thread saying  "White Only guild" will you assume I might be an American Indian?

If it walks like a duck....

I mentioned GW2 since its the only time I have ever seen these Guilds advertised (like three last week I think)- So replace where I said GW2 with "Any game" and my point still stands.

I believe in equality... Thats not enough for the "protected" people I guess. The "crap" people have to put up with from me is being treated totally equal. I like and dislike people on their merits, not who they bed.

I added the link in my original post.  Blizzard vs LGBT.  check it out.  This predates GW2.

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

Originally posted by maji

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

I can understand it-

Sexual Orientation and race and religion should not even be an issue with a Guild in any way shap[e or form.

Look, I cannot make a "Straights Only Guild" or a "Black Only Guild" and advertise it as such (obviously you can have anyone in your guild who you wish and could still make a Guild like such)- So whats good for the goose.

Its like Orwell said in Animal farm. "All Animals are equal but some Animals are MORE equal than others..." This is becopming the case. 

Well, but people can make "women only" guilds. Or "only 30+" guilds, and so on. What's the difference between that and a lgbt guild?

I see a difference. A huge one in fact. But it matters not-

Let me ask you this- Why advertise your sexual orientation or crossdressing desires via a "guild tag:" in an MMO?

Also note I am not saying that I care one way or another (I really dont- I would avoid joning that guild though-) but I am explaining why people would take issue with it. I have a problem with anyone broadcasting personal issues .  Pretty soon we will have S&M Gyuilds, Guilds for "watersports" and scatt.

Keep it in the real world or take it second life.

-Its my opinion for what its worth. You asked.

 i realy agree on this one 100%

Dont get me wrong her, i LOVE lesbians.....i realy do......specially when they......euh yeah sorry, almost let myself go there.

But on a realy serious note.....i dont realy think an online game is the place to advertise your personal sexual preference imho.

Or do you realy want have people reacting to it?? You know the ingame community is not the most mature crowd is some cases right??

i think as far as you just want people who are on the same interest lvl as you are....maybe just join a forum about gay/lesbian/transgenders and have nice chat with people who have the same interest or preference as you have. But a game realy does not seem to be the place to out yourself about gender preference or anything else like that.