Originally posted by Kuppa
@ez
I don't think you understand what normalized gear means. If the players have to grind content to get it, then there was no normalization.

Alright then. How about equitable? Is that a better adjective Mr. NitpickyMcpickster? The general point of my post stands. At high levels of PVP, most everybody is on equal footing when it comes to gear.

:P

Originally posted by Kuppa
@ez
My point, since you missed it, is not which word you picked. It's the idea behind gear normalization from the start of the game for PvP.

Maybe I misuse the word. If I queue at 2400 MMR in WoW and my team is wearing gear that has the exact same stats as the other team, then gear is normalized IMO. I don't think grind has anything to do with it. The end result is the same. In GW2 my gear is normalized as soon as I enter sPVP. In WoW, it just takes a bit longer for that to happen.

Originally posted by ezpz77

Originally posted by Kuppa
@ez
My point, since you missed it, is not which word you picked. It's the idea behind gear normalization from the start of the game for PvP.

 

Maybe I misuse the word. If I queue at 2400 MMR in WoW and my team is wearing gear that has the exact same stats as the other team, then gear is normalized IMO. I don't think grind has anything to do with it. The end result is the same. In GW2 my gear is normalized as soon as I enter sPVP. In WoW, it just takes a bit longer for that to happen.

 , and I know this sounds crazy, but you have to win some matches too.

Originally posted by ezpz77

Originally posted by Kuppa
@ez
My point, since you missed it, is not which word you picked. It's the idea behind gear normalization from the start of the game for PvP.

 

Maybe I misuse the word. If I queue at 2400 MMR in WoW and my team is wearing gear that has the exact same stats as the other team, then gear is normalized IMO. I don't think grind has anything to do with it. The end result is the same. In GW2 my gear is normalized as soon as I enter sPVP. In WoW, it just takes a bit longer for that to happen.

No there is a difference between what you're saying and what normalized gear really means. The outcome may be similar, but when people say "normalized" gear they are talking about something very specific. If your team in WoW has the same stats as the other team, that's happenstance. But normalized gear is when a game company gives everyone the same gear. It has nothing to do with players doing anything on their part to try to earn anything, it's a company's attempt to make things equal from the start.

Originally posted by VirusDancer

Originally posted by Foomerang

 

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Originally posted by VirusDancer

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Originally posted by Foomerang Wondering what your credentials are in the esport arena. Won or placed in any tournaments? Or is all your pvp experience from in-game only.

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Have to wonder how that matters?  It's funny how these threads always digress into things like this.  Hell, even I laughed to the point of tears initially at what it looked like the OP was saying - until I paused for a moment, read it again, and gave the OP the benefit of the doubt.

 

Different people prefer different types of PvP.  Odds are, they'll even look down on other types of PvP as they favor one over the others.  Personally, I tend to look down on esport PvP - I mean, it's fun to watch and all that - highly entertaining at times; but it's not the same as setting the alarm for 3 AM because some guild/alliance is coming to destroy your city - it's not getting the call at work, breaking out your notebook, and hoping you don't get fired as you log in to fight off somebody raiding your territory.

That being said, it's kind of obvious that the OP's just talking about games that favor gear - and - those games are out there, no doubt about that.  Games where you can watch TV, eat a sandwich, all while fragging the Hell out of the undergeared folks around you...

...so I have to wonder what his credentials in the esport arena has to do with that in the least.  I mean, really...?

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Because of the topic title, he implies hes a real pvper. Imo, a real pvper does the tournament scene. So i was wanting to know if thats what he does.

It's a contextual post.  It's in the GW2 forums.  It's in the PvP subforum.  It's not in the Pub, General Gaming, etc.

In GW2, GW2 separates the real PvPers from the wannabes - is what he's saying, no?

I mean, sure - many of us got a chuckle out of the thread title alone - but if you look at it, take it in context... he's saying something pretty simple - it's more on even ground.  Pretty simple, eh?  It's not the guys rolling in sporting the best gear and rolling folks that don't stand a chance because they're near one-shotted because of the gear discrepancy (heh, though it is funny when you do that to somebody - I've actually felt guilty...it's like, DAYUM - WTF?).

It's not a case that GW2 separates the real PvPers from other games - it's a case that GW2 separates the real PvPers in GW2...

In a tournament system, folks are going to be geared near the same if not the same.  It's not like rolling folks that turned left when they should have turned right.  So if anything, he's saying that the GW2 PvP is more akin to that... which is something that you would likely agree with, no?  That real PvP folks can be separated from the wannabes - by not having the various outrageous advantages...but that it comes down more to the player's abilities and skills - right?

I mean, I still laugh each time I see that title...and I have to remind myself about the context; but the context is there and his post makes sense.  It appears that the majority of folks attacking him, would actually agree with him - if they just took a moment to consider the context of it all.  Doesn't mean I don't chuckle when I read the title though...

This is exactly what I thought he was saying after I read the post.

WvWvW discussions are a bit subjective though. I just figured if he was mainly talking about sPVP then it pretty much does.

Originally posted by Leiloni

Originally posted by ezpz77

Originally posted by Kuppa
@ez
My point, since you missed it, is not which word you picked. It's the idea behind gear normalization from the start of the game for PvP.

 

Maybe I misuse the word. If I queue at 2400 MMR in WoW and my team is wearing gear that has the exact same stats as the other team, then gear is normalized IMO. I don't think grind has anything to do with it. The end result is the same. In GW2 my gear is normalized as soon as I enter sPVP. In WoW, it just takes a bit longer for that to happen.

No there is a difference between what you're saying and what normalized gear really means. The outcome may be similar, but when people say "normalized" gear they are talking about something very specific. If your team in WoW has the same stats as the other team, that's happenstance. But normalized gear is when a game company gives everyone the same gear. It has nothing to do with players doing anything on their part to try to earn anything, it's a company's attempt to make things equal from the start.

Like I said, I was probably misusing the word. I didn't know there was some MMO-specific definition that went along with it, but it really makes no difference in regards to the overall point of my post.

Originally posted by eAzydaman

Originally posted by Purutzil

Um.... its... by far vastly simpler then a game like WoW *cringe* in terms of mehanics and skills. Yes you can make the gear point (which btw, in WvW its obviously still an issue but lets overlook that for now) but over-all it really doesn't do much to make it a 'skill' based games focused on pvp. Real pvpers likely would want a world where its actually open world pvp for one, as well as a challenging system, rather then one with, lets face it, very simplified combat. It really tries to flash you with all these confusing details but in the end its very simplistic in just how things work and what works and what does not. In the end your spamming 2 buttons and maybe occasionally doing a few more complex things that really isn't that impressive.

Any other MMo can easily rid of gear if they wanted and have a tornament style with normalized gear and it could claim just as much as GW2 that its for real pvpers, and even say its better then it when it has the option of open world pvp compared to GW2.

Your post makes ZERO sense. Have you even played the game? Open world pvp? Why is that needed to make a game depend on skill?

WOW is as simple a combat mechanic can get, it requires nothing but button mashing. I wanna see you easily win a 1v3 in WOW with people who has equal gear. In GW2 that is doable without even taking damage if your good enough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEWOGcU61ng&feature=plcp

Watch and learn.

Wow that guy was pretty good.

Originally posted by Pivotelite

Lol...GW2 certainly doesn't demonstrate that, it's so simple to get into PvP in GW2, you just roll the FoTM build and walk right in, after about a day of practice you can be decent with a class. I re-rolled characters all the time and didn't notice a difference in my performance.

 

If you want a game that seperates PvP players from PvE go play TERA, see what happens if all you've done is PvE then you try to fight an experienced PvPer.

 

The best players from the PvE server in the BG tournament got absolutely stomped even with equalized gear by the average players from the PvP server.

OK for starters TERA's BG is really poorly designed. The game has a lot of potential for PvP but the BGs are certainly not it. Doing small group PvP in the closed betas and lots of deathmatches before BGs came out was so much more fun and skillful than BGs. The new 3v3/5v5 arenas will likely be a lot better.

Although on your first point I half agree. I think anyone that PvPs more in both games is going to be better than the newbies and you can tell. But GW2 has a lower skill floor to get in and be decent, whereas in TERA it takes more practice to be decent.

But that's only because the nature of TERA's combat in general, not just in PvP, is not as forgiving as GW2's combat. Most action combat games that allow you to avoid damage don't have main tanks and healers like TERA does, so mistakes need to be punished more harshly so those classes can have a purpose otherwise no one would ever die. Even as is, with a good team, a Priest can keep your group up for a ridiculously long time in non-zerg PvP (i.e. not BGs and not mass zerg GvGs).

So yes TERA definitely separates the newbies from the veterans more so than GW2, but that's simply a necessity stemming from the game's core design. It doesn't mean it's a better PvP game than others out there.

Thanks, had a good laugh.

You want skill dependent PvP, go play Planetside 2 instead of a dice rolling zerg.

Originally posted by FromHell

Thanks, had a good laugh.

You want skill dependent PvP, go play Planetside 2 instead of a dice rolling zerg.

I don't know, in almost every large scale battle I'm in(video games) there isalways a zerg, I just figured it's suppose to happen, I mean especially where the action is, people love action in PVP games.

Eh well.

So all the wannabes are here playing a zero risk pvp game and strutting around that they got a lot of zerg kills then?

Sure bet they wont touch a pvp game that requiers actual skills, rather than proper button order mashing (macroed ofc) or even worse, a game where theres risk of loss in pvp.

Nope, theyll be here in GW2 the MMORPG minus the RPG offering zerg pvp mechanics in a zero risk world.  

I would compare GW2 to Planetside 2 in terms of shallow pvp fun.  Just PL2 you need to actually hit people rather than tab to them, so it does require a bit of skill....and they actually got pvp right in their world, no lame WvWvW and instanced fights.  

You want a shallow fun pvp game that requires a bit of skill go to PL2, you actually consider your self a real pvper? then ill see you in darkfall come dec 12

Originally posted by Crunchy222

You want a shallow fun pvp game that requires a bit of skill go to PL2, you actually consider your self a real pvper? then ill see you in darkfall come dec 12

As long as they reduced the PvE requirement to enter PvP I'll be there. Darkfall 1.0 was a total failure, and anything but a PvP oriented game. It was a carebear wonderland of NPC slaughtering with a tiny bit of PvP here or there... but mostly PvP that rewarded those who had played the longest and PvEed the most.

It had a PvE grind that would have made Aion blush.

Originally posted by gessekai332

What i really like about this game is that people who are legitimately good at the game are rewarded. I would always get annoyed in other games when developers would try to dumb the game down WoW style and make it so PvE carebears can steamroll legit pvpers because they were faster at leveling or they bought overpowered gear with gold or cash. But in gw2  this isn't the case because even though there are slight differences in gear doesnt make bads into good players. My friend is lvl 10 in PvE(he just does sPvP all day) was rolling with me in WvW last night and we were smashing people to pieces (2v2, 2v3, and in zergs). He later remarked to me that he is surprised that that there are so many people who are high level but they just suck so much and die to stupid things. They are nothing to the people he encounters in sPvP even when gear and level is in their favor.

 

Valuable lesson #1 for GW2 PvP: You play PvP, you get good at PvP. You play PvE you die in PvP.

Valuable lesson #2 for GW2 PvP: Bads whine about new game mechanics they are not used to (underwater combat, downed state, no trinity). Good players know how to adapt and steamroll!! Don't like underwater combat? thats cool, have fun auto-losing Ruins!

 

I cannot express to you how refreshing it feels to log onto one of my lower lvl alts decked out in greens and smash lvl 80 players in exotics because they dont understand what condition-heavy metagame means.

Being a sucking wannabe myself, I tend to agree. GW2 PVP indeed magnifies the player skills. I have often enough being ganked by 1 expert player when we were 2, 3 or even 4. So I agree.

I would however add, that personally I prefer my characters' power to be based on THEIR power not MINE. Each to his, I guess. But playing against the personal skill of other people is of zero interest to me. Too vast is the difference of real life people. I prefer it based on the characters, like, say, in a chess game, where you quick reactions matter little. My reactions have never been too good. *shrug* Also isn't every sports divided into leagues? Like you play against people of similar power?

While I respect you want PVP that way, it just bores me. I want to challange my char vs another char, I dont care about the player.

Originally posted by Kiljaedenas

Originally posted by gessekai332

Originally posted by Requiem1066

Valuable lesson #4 for GW2 PvP:   The real PvPer's are playing other games 

 

:)

Yeah i agree GW2 has to compete with good pvpers going to dota or LoL.

? Try Eve Online instead.

Yea, I read to thi spoint and saw this. I agree, and now back to playing EVE. EVE, DaoC, and Shadowbane... possibly Darkfall.  GW2 - lol. When the pvp is everywhere, even where it is supposed to be safe, call me. Edit: Those who have played those 3 know what I mean.

Originally posted by Draigen
Yet another PVP game that has gotten greedy and tried to win over the PVE crowd. This game will be left in the dust in less than a year.

Sorry - A.Net announced that there would be transfer fees AGES ago. Anyone who got blindsided by that is just blind. I don't think this game will be left in the dust by what, Age of Wushu? Archage? - those have totally different palyer bases.

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

I agree wiht OP.
It separates them through the queuing system. Those who are PVPing are the real PVPers, those in the queue, wannabe PVPing.

 +1

Semantics FTW

Carry on, nothing to see here