Originally posted by nariusseldon

At the end of the day, since we are talking about an entertainment product, quality is in the eyes of the beholder.

There is simply no right or wrong.

+1. Kinda like How I consider Sonic Unleashed one of Sonic's best 3D games, yet I know it's flawed and there are people who hate the game for various reasons.

Now to hide in my reinforced bunker from the wave of people who hate Modern Sonic games.

Originally posted by bcbully

Let me start by sayin I played WoW for five years, with an embarrassing amout of time  /played on just my main not to mention my 8 alts. I stopped playing about a year and a half ago, and have no plans to go back. WoW is dated, and was taken in a direction that I could not agree with. Which brought a level of distrust for Blizzard that hasn't eased yet. 

 

With that said, how is it possible that Blizzard can take this old game with an older engine and probably sell more copies of it's 4th expansion than GW2, SwTOR, TSW and RIFT combined?! What does this say about the rest of the developers out there? How is it that Blizzard can make a game where millions of people play for years and these other developers can't make a game where most people want to play 6 months?  To be far I did play RIFT for ten months. I tip my hat to the TRION team, but that's a far cry from years. 

 

So which one is it? Blizzard is that good, or does the rest of the industry suck that bad? It's either more of one or the other.

 

edit - and an "e" to the "on" in the pole....

 

 

 

 

IMO its all about timing, they were the first to bring it to market in a huge way that the masses flocked too. Once the mass of WoW fans had assembled it was just a matter of time that it exploded and now it doesn't need much fuel to feed the fire. I think the ball is in Bizzards hands as to when the WoW train stops. I don't think they have any plans of letting up at least until Titan comes out.

I voted "Blizzard is that good."

I like their games, for the most part.

I like RTS games.

I was not a huge fan of D3, but whatever.

I voted for the second option, but I don't think it's because they are bad developers, they're just going at it the wrong way.

When Blizzard set out to make WoW, they looked at older MMOs, what people liked about them, what they disliked about them, what they personally liked/disliked and how far they could take an MMORPG that puts all that knowledge together. In a way, WoW is "unique". Yes people will say "It's an EQ clone" and whatever, but had WoW only been an EQ clone I seriously don't think it'd have done so well. It worked because they put all the knowledge they had altogether, and made an MMO with all of this in mind.  I really don't like Themepark MMOs, but I've got to give credits to Blizzard on this.

The problem with other developers however, is that they aren't looking around, they're just looking at WoW. So they gather all that knowledge about what WoW players like or dislike, what they personnaly like or dislike, and make an MMORPG with this. They'll add a few cool features and whatnot, but essentially, they're still making a WoW-like MMORPG! Blizzard set out to improve the MMORPG formula, while these developers set out to improve the WoW formula...against an MMORPG that has 7-8 years worth of content put in while they (the other developers) release a game with enough content for a launch. It's an absolutely disastrous and shortsighted way of thinking that leads to no good.

What these developers should do is what Blizzard once did, look at the MMORPG market as a whole, and not just the single most popular P2P MMORPG in the world. If they bothered to do this, they'd know what players are actually currently looking forward to, and what players feel about current MMORPGs. There's so much to learn from other games success and failures, to ignore them is pure insanity. With this in mind, they'd finally be able to build an MMORPG that has could have an impact. 

Originally posted by Fuggly
It sayss nothing baout the developers and everything about the player base.  WoW just has brainwashed its players, and has brainead un-game-diversified morons plaaying it.

I am starting to think that people who claim WoW players are brainwashed are brainwashed themselves. Many, many MMO players play WoW and OTHER games. Yes, there are some WoW players who have never tried anything else in the MMO genre, but most people I have come across and talked to in both WoW EU and WoW USA have played or currently play other games. I am one of them.

There is no doubt in my mind that WoW is still one of the most polished and fun MMOs out there. Is it the best? No, it is one of the best MMOs out there, and overall the best in its style of MMO (by that I mean a quest-centric, endgame raid or PvP geargrind game).

One does not have to be completely hide-bound to one game y'know or a moron because they happen to like something you don't.

I do think that at least old Blizzard was just that damned good. I am not as sure about recent Blizzard after the D3 release. I still hold out hope for D3.

However, if you think about it, it is not surprising that Blizzard has overall released topnotch games: they do seem to be able to attract good talent. Sometimes that good talent branches off and makes new studios that release good products too, like Runic and ANet. In that sense, Blizzard is far more than the company it is today. I would say that they have been one of the most influential companies in the gaming industry.

And then one should compare them to what else is as big and out there: EA for example, or SOE, or NCSoft... Blizzard's reputation, although not entirely intact, is not doing as badly as some of the other companies.

There is a new bunch of game companies cropping up who are currently indie and I have a lot of hope for. Maybe they will be the new Blizzards of the future, and hopefully Blizz will be able to continue to make good, entertaining games as well. They are going to have to play it carefully though after the D3 fiasco.

I gotta laugh at some of the logic in this thread

Blizzard cant even compete and are rookies with talent such as

 http://boardgames.about.com/od/monopolyfaq/f/copies_sold.htm and http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Mario

Apparently sales mean everything to some and if that is the case Monopoly is a much superior game to WoW or all Blizzard games combined for that matter.

Originally posted by arctarus

Originally posted by ShakyMo
So diablo 3 was "good"?

talking about mmo here bro....

To be fair, someone in the thread *did* actually bring up D3 and say it was good.

I keep that dusty CE Box on my shelf to remind me of what a dupe I was.

Originally posted by laserit

I gotta laugh at some of the logic in this thread

Blizzard cant even compete and are rookies with talent such as

 http://boardgames.about.com/od/monopolyfaq/f/copies_sold.htm and http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Mario

Apparently sales mean everything to some and if that is the case Monopoly is a much superior game to WoW or all Blizzard games combined for that matter.

Originally posted by Fuggly
[mod edit]

While I'm not sure what being 'brainead' is, it doesn't sound like something good.  Clearly, we'd all be much better off plaaying games with people like you.  Your attitude would warm anyone's day.

Wow, just look at all the nice other players we're missing.

Originally posted by Lissyl

You can see the disconnect people get when discussing WoW just by reading what they type.  Like the guy who said 'the old zones have never been updated'.  Yet most of the old-world was updated with Cataclysm.  Why doesn't he know this?  Or the people who say 'Well they have all that time invested'.  Sure, time investment is a great thing, but it hasn't prevented most of us from trying other games.  One thing people forget is that more people have tried WoW and quit than people who played it at it's highest sub total (according to a Blizz employee).  People talk about GW1 selling 6 million boxes and that being half of WoW...it's not even close.  That's more like 24 million boxes (again, presuming the Blizz employee was speaking truth).  It's not that we leave other games because they're 'not like WoW'.  How can people even say that...then say that every game is a WoW knock-off in the next line?

The core play aesthetics are different.  Blizz wanted to reach the players that no one else wanted.  Once they had their attention, they offered the most diverse set of options of any game out there, cannibalized the best features from the best new games (often making the features even better), and then topping it with (on average) excellent Customer Service.  People don't play WoW for 'the best graphics', 'the best pvp', 'the best grouping', etc.  We play WoW because on any given single day, we can do 100 million different things, with different people or alone.  Top that with a lore that is very deep (even if some parts are contradictory or redacted occasionally) layered atop gameplay that ranges from intense high-caliber difficulty (like it or not, heroic raids are -hard-) to complete mindless relaxation (fishing, for instance) and -everything- inbetween.  The big value of WoW is -choice-, and -no one- offers as much.  Not even close to as much.  WoW doesn't do any -single- thing better than -everyone- else, they just do -more-, better, than -anyone- else.  It's really not hard to understand...but it's very hard to match.

 You do realize what you said is *effectively* WoW's been out a long time... right?

like 95% of what WoW is was built after WoW came out....

Unfortunately I'm amazed that more gamers don't realize that no other game that comes out will have more choices.... it's impossible due to scope and cost.

Originally posted by bcbully

 

 

With that said, how is it possible that Blizzard can take this old game with an older engine and probably sell more copies of it's 4th expansion than GW2, SwTOR, TSW and RIFT combined?! 

 

 

 

 

Not this time.....

Originally posted by TomBaker_fan

Originally posted by bcbully

 

 

With that said, how is it possible that Blizzard can take this old game with an older engine and probably sell more copies of it's 4th expansion than GW2, SwTOR, TSW and RIFT combined?! 

 

 

 

 

Not this time.....

They for sure will sell more MoP boxes then GW2 will. 

But the problem is that it is not the fault of Blizzard. Blizzard is doing there thing and they are doing pretty good. It is rather the fault of all other developers who are jumping on the "me2" bandwagon and making cheap copies of WoW. 

There is actually only EVE I can think of which survived with a completely different gameplay. All other MMOs are either mere WoW clones from big publishers or they are under financed experimentel MMO who suffer other problems (e.g. lack of graphics, too much grinding, not enoug content ...)

I mean look at GW2. Definetly a great MMO but in the end behind all those wanna be dynamic event is the same old PvE grind just with a nicer package... (a very beautifull one for sure). 

What we need are new game mechanics and new ideas by at least decent studios who are willing to take a risk and do something really "new" in a high quality.

Kind regards,

Bercilak

Originally posted by ShakyMo
If blizzard are "that good"
Runic must be "omfgawesomesauce"

Why is that?

Because they made a good Diablo copy?

I think you don't get me. I am saying is that Blizzard made a great game with WoW which is a game I don't like but which a lot of people like (it is actually one of the most successfull games ever), so hard to argue that it's a bad game, right. 

What I am saying is the probelm is not Blizzard who made WoW, but every other company who is trying to make cheap copies of WoW and not making their own good game with innovative concepts.

Kind regards,

Bercilak

PS.: I like Torchlight 2^^

Originally posted by Angier2758
You say that a de is just the same ol pve.... the only way it wouldn't be is if mobs hunted players.... which would be awesome, but I think players wouldn't like that a lot.

Get this man a job!

Originally posted by Bercilak

Originally posted by ShakyMo
If blizzard are "that good"
Runic must be "omfgawesomesauce"

Why is that?

Because they made a good Diablo copy?

 

I think you don't get me. I am saying is that Blizzard made a great game with WoW which is a game I don't like but which a lot of people like (it is actually one of the most successfull games ever), so hard to argue that it's a bad game, right. 

What I am saying is the probelm is not Blizzard who made WoW, but every other company who is trying to make cheap copies of WoW and not making their own good game with innovative concepts.

 

Kind regards,

Bercilak

 

PS.: I like Torchlight 2^^

  Odd though, don't you think?  We hate "cheap ripoff WoW mmos" but love cheap ripoff diablo clones?  Most MMO's really aren't ripoffs either...they all just use standardized gaming elements that are a clear choice for the genre.  Sometimes innovation doesn't fit with a theme.  Perhaps the problem has nothing to do with mmo gaming, and more to do with the fact we just don't want mmo's anymore.  Maybe we still want a massive multiplayer experience...but maybe that doesn't fit the MMO genre as clearly as it once did.