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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Can SOE be trusted to produce a quality "Sandbox"?

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81 posts found
  dave6660

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2366

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

9/19/12 7:26:28 PM#41
Originally posted by Quirhid

Why don't we just judge the game by its merits rather than what its developer might or might not have done in the past, hmm?

I expect most of the players who will pick this game up don't know or don't care about Vanguard, SWG or any other dusty relic SOE might have been involved with.

Some MMORPG's players strangely have developed "brand loyalty".  In some peoples eyes Blizzard can do no wrong.  To other people SOE can do no right.

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  NaughtyP

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 795

9/19/12 7:36:00 PM#42

SOE is always one step forward, one step backward to me. Honestly, I think they really want to do right by gamers for the most part. But it's the constant major screwups (SWG NGE, Vanguard, big security debacles, etc.) that sour people on SOE. If they kept their stuff in order for a few years without any major screwups, and released quality games during that time, there is no doubt in my mind they would "repair" their image quickly.

Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  grimal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/11/05
Posts: 2665

9/19/12 7:38:54 PM#43
Absolutely not.   Has everyone suddenly forgotten what studio we are talking about?  I feel like I just entered the Twilight Zone or something.

"I'm sorry, if you were right, I'd agree with you." - Robin Williams

  Leoghan

Novice Member

Joined: 12/27/03
Posts: 611

9/19/12 7:40:31 PM#44
Originally posted by NomadMorlock
Originally posted by Leoghan
They've made quality sandboxes, the problem was no one played them. Everyone decries what happened to SWG, but no one seems to admit to having jump ship before the drastic overhaul of the game. But the reality is too many people jumped ship and that's why the overhaul came. 

Untrue sir.  Many people jumped ship because there were other issues in the game present from launch. No one asked for the NGE. What "we" wanted was to address issues with the current game. The combat upgrade moved some of this in the right direction but the success of WoW was creating massive pressure to move the game toward a level based game even at the time of the combat upgrade. 

 

Combat upgrade mechanics without the move toward level based theme park is the direction it should have gone. If the had held to entirely skill based without levels and fixed the massive amounts of bugs and tweaked their rewards for theme park quests (rage of the wookies) we would be having a very different conversation right now. 

Which part is untrure that they made a quality sandbox with SWG or that no one stuck around to play it? If you're saying it was a good game, but needed some fixes then you're siding on the fact that it was an above average game. Why people jumped ship is actually moot, the reality is no one stuck around long enough and the Developers got desperate to compete with WoW, in hindsight that was an impossible goal, but in the heat of it, you can't really blame them. 

  Leoghan

Novice Member

Joined: 12/27/03
Posts: 611

9/19/12 7:45:09 PM#45
Originally posted by NaughtyP

SOE is always one step forward, one step backward to me. Honestly, I think they really want to do right by gamers for the most part. But it's the constant major screwups (SWG NGE, Vanguard, big security debacles, etc.) that sour people on SOE. If they kept their stuff in order for a few years without any major screwups, and released quality games during that time, there is no doubt in my mind they would "repair" their image quickly.

Vanguard was a Sigil debacle before SOE even got their hands on it. I remember getting a behind the scenes look at it a little over a year before its release. For what was an alpha stage I thought it was impressive, but I knew things were bad when Beta kicked off in full and nothing had progressed any further. It certainly has some of the most expansive and beautiful landscapes and one of the best "world" feels of any MMO I've ever played, it has some good points, but SOE can't be blamed for what happened with Vanguard, though I know McQuaid would love to lay it at their feet. 

  Slampig

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 2407

Whatever you do, do NOT speak ill of Asheron's Call 2...

9/19/12 7:48:37 PM#46
Originally posted by Fadedbomb

If you haven't read the interview with Smedley see here.

Also, there's a thread discussing what Smedley said here.

 

 

The purpose of this thread, and poll, is to ask the burning question.

"Do you trust SOE to make a quality "Sandbox" title that isn't PayToWin, and doesn't spit all over its players?"

 

So far SOE's track record is filled with nothing but themeparks, SOE destroying SWG, failing hard with Vanguard, and ignoring Planetside 1 to death (SWG being their own "Sandbox" title, and Planetside 1 their other non-Themepark title being an MMOFPS can't really be called a sandbox).

 

 

So, what do you think :)?

I don't see any other company making a kickass "sandbox" at the moment. I don't mention EvE because I don't like that game. 

 

Instead of rehashing all the whiney BS about SOE, why not sit back and see what happens?

That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

  Tokken

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/06/04
Posts: 945

"I'm your Huckleberry!"

9/19/12 7:49:59 PM#47
Originally posted by Fadedbomb

If you haven't read the interview with Smedley see here.

Also, there's a thread discussing what Smedley said here.

 

 

The purpose of this thread, and poll, is to ask the burning question.

"Do you trust SOE to make a quality "Sandbox" title that isn't PayToWin, and doesn't spit all over its players?"

 

So far SOE's track record is filled with nothing but themeparks, SOE destroying SWG, failing hard with Vanguard, and ignoring Planetside 1 to death (SWG being their own "Sandbox" title, and Planetside 1 their other non-Themepark title being an MMOFPS can't really be called a sandbox).

 

 

So, what do you think :)?

absolutely, VG was good.

UO, EQ, DAoC, SWG, WOW, EQ2, CoH, CoX, VG, Aion, STO, CO, DCUO, LOTRO, Tera, SWTOR, GW2, DP, NW, TSW, MH, DDO, Rift, WS, ESO, Trove, LM

  NomadMorlock

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/09/07
Posts: 455

9/19/12 7:50:50 PM#48
Originally posted by Leoghan
Originally posted by NomadMorlock
Originally posted by Leoghan
They've made quality sandboxes, the problem was no one played them. Everyone decries what happened to SWG, but no one seems to admit to having jump ship before the drastic overhaul of the game. But the reality is too many people jumped ship and that's why the overhaul came. 

Untrue sir.  Many people jumped ship because there were other issues in the game present from launch. No one asked for the NGE. What "we" wanted was to address issues with the current game. The combat upgrade moved some of this in the right direction but the success of WoW was creating massive pressure to move the game toward a level based game even at the time of the combat upgrade. 

 

Combat upgrade mechanics without the move toward level based theme park is the direction it should have gone. If the had held to entirely skill based without levels and fixed the massive amounts of bugs and tweaked their rewards for theme park quests (rage of the wookies) we would be having a very different conversation right now. 

Which part is untrure that they made a quality sandbox with SWG or that no one stuck around to play it? If you're saying it was a good game, but needed some fixes then you're siding on the fact that it was an above average game. Why people jumped ship is actually moot, the reality is no one stuck around long enough and the Developers got desperate to compete with WoW, in hindsight that was an impossible goal, but in the heat of it, you can't really blame them. 

What I'm saying is there was never an issue with too many people jumping ship. The overhaul came in response to WoW's overwhelming success. Sony & Lucas Arts wanted that success and began to redesign the game to be more like WoW.  Hell, every game maker wanted the revenue Blizzard was seeing. No one even knew it was possible to hit those numbers. 

 

That is why the NGE came.   Not because the player base was leaving, but because WoW made them rethink what sub numbers were acceptable. 

  NomadMorlock

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/09/07
Posts: 455

9/19/12 7:57:01 PM#49
Originally posted by Tokken
Originally posted by Fadedbomb

If you haven't read the interview with Smedley see here.

Also, there's a thread discussing what Smedley said here.

 

 

The purpose of this thread, and poll, is to ask the burning question.

"Do you trust SOE to make a quality "Sandbox" title that isn't PayToWin, and doesn't spit all over its players?"

 

So far SOE's track record is filled with nothing but themeparks, SOE destroying SWG, failing hard with Vanguard, and ignoring Planetside 1 to death (SWG being their own "Sandbox" title, and Planetside 1 their other non-Themepark title being an MMOFPS can't really be called a sandbox).

 

 

So, what do you think :)?

absolutely, VG was good.

Um..  Sony didn't make vanguard. The bought it shortly after launch and  I believe they limited the resources put into it so it would not eclipse EQ2. 

  SaintPhilip

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/12
Posts: 729

9/19/12 8:03:47 PM#50
Originally posted by NomadMorlock
Originally posted by Tokken
Originally posted by Fadedbomb

If you haven't read the interview with Smedley see here.

Also, there's a thread discussing what Smedley said here.

 

 

The purpose of this thread, and poll, is to ask the burning question.

"Do you trust SOE to make a quality "Sandbox" title that isn't PayToWin, and doesn't spit all over its players?"

 

So far SOE's track record is filled with nothing but themeparks, SOE destroying SWG, failing hard with Vanguard, and ignoring Planetside 1 to death (SWG being their own "Sandbox" title, and Planetside 1 their other non-Themepark title being an MMOFPS can't really be called a sandbox).

 

 

So, what do you think :)?

absolutely, VG was good.

Um..  Sony didn't make vanguard. The bought it shortly after launch and  I believe they limited the resources put into it so it would not eclipse EQ2. 

This is what I feel as well- VG could have destroyed EQ2 (and probably WOW) had it been "fixed" and "polished". SOE bought it at bargain prices and essentially shelved it (fixing it enough to get their initial investment back but not much more...)

  Kopogero

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/27/09
Posts: 752

9/19/12 8:06:31 PM#51

SOE is at least realistic now. It knows they got far better chance at making strong launch with a Free to Play access MMROPG and potentially taking away bigger chunk of the market.

Planetside 2 lacks a lot of features to demand a monthly fee.

Starcraft aka wise/04. SWG/UO aka Wise HeRo, Light Jedi Knight pre-cu (Bria)

  arieste

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 3311

9/19/12 8:08:36 PM#52

Well.. so far, the best non-pvp sandbox ever made is SWG.  Who made it?  SOE.    Who killed it?  Also SOE.

 

So, can SOE be trusted?  Absolutley not.  Has anyone else made anything remotely as good as what SOE has?  No.  

 

So the answer is that NO, SOE can't be trusted.  But relatively, they can probably be trusted more than any other major company out there.     For PvP, i would definitely trust CCP more, but over all the years of making and improving EVE, they still haven't been able to prove to me that they can make a worthwhile PvE element.   Not that EVE doesn't have PvE, but let's be honest, what makes EVE the amazing game is the PvP.

"I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

- Raph Koster

Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2
Currently Playing: EQ2, Firefall

  Leoghan

Novice Member

Joined: 12/27/03
Posts: 611

9/19/12 8:18:14 PM#53
Originally posted by NomadMorlock
Originally posted by Leoghan
Originally posted by NomadMorlock
Originally posted by Leoghan
They've made quality sandboxes, the problem was no one played them. Everyone decries what happened to SWG, but no one seems to admit to having jump ship before the drastic overhaul of the game. But the reality is too many people jumped ship and that's why the overhaul came. 

Untrue sir.  Many people jumped ship because there were other issues in the game present from launch. No one asked for the NGE. What "we" wanted was to address issues with the current game. The combat upgrade moved some of this in the right direction but the success of WoW was creating massive pressure to move the game toward a level based game even at the time of the combat upgrade. 

 

Combat upgrade mechanics without the move toward level based theme park is the direction it should have gone. If the had held to entirely skill based without levels and fixed the massive amounts of bugs and tweaked their rewards for theme park quests (rage of the wookies) we would be having a very different conversation right now. 

Which part is untrure that they made a quality sandbox with SWG or that no one stuck around to play it? If you're saying it was a good game, but needed some fixes then you're siding on the fact that it was an above average game. Why people jumped ship is actually moot, the reality is no one stuck around long enough and the Developers got desperate to compete with WoW, in hindsight that was an impossible goal, but in the heat of it, you can't really blame them. 

What I'm saying is there was never an issue with too many people jumping ship. The overhaul came in response to WoW's overwhelming success. Sony & Lucas Arts wanted that success and began to redesign the game to be more like WoW.  Hell, every game maker wanted the revenue Blizzard was seeing. No one even knew it was possible to hit those numbers. 

 

That is why the NGE came.   Not because the player base was leaving, but because WoW made them rethink what sub numbers were acceptable. 

No subs were down substantially by Oct of 04 when JTLS was released. That was a month before WoW even came out, though granted a number of people had left to beta WoW. WoW came out in Nov of 04.

You can't say there was "never an issue of too many people jumping ship" and then say, they made changes in response to another games succes. The reality is that in their eyes the game was not producing the numbers it should have. Hell by the time the NGE hit in 05 most of the game was vacant, people weren't playing anymore. Rage of the Wookies had already been a huge disappiontment and Trials of Obi wan was shaping up to be one to. Then boom NGE hits two weeks later. Could they have kept it alive with the numbers they had? Yes, but they weren't thinking about keeping a game on life support at that point they wanted to breath new life into it. Huge mistake of course, but the number of subs were lower than what they expected and they responded. 

The game was one of the best sandboxes ever released, but not enough people played it to keep it that way. Had the game been a huge success it never would have changed so dramatically. Even if it had only reached and sustained half of Wow's numbers I can bet you they wouldn't have changed things so much. 

We will likely never see another game like it either because twice now one of the biggest IPs has failed to produced a soild hit. 

 

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2552

World > Quest Progression

9/19/12 8:18:43 PM#54
Forgive me if someone already mentioned this but Free Realms is a sandbox, is it not? I know it's made for kids and I have not played it myself but we've seen recently how important a game's structure is over it's exterior. I would hope SoE is pouring it's combined knowledge and resources together since we're taking about the flagship IP.
  Burntvet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2800

9/19/12 8:35:50 PM#55
Originally posted by arieste

Well.. so far, the best non-pvp sandbox ever made is SWG.  Who made it?  SOE.    Who killed it?  Also SOE.

 

So, can SOE be trusted?  Absolutley not.  Has anyone else made anything remotely as good as what SOE has?  No.  

 

So the answer is that NO, SOE can't be trusted.  But relatively, they can probably be trusted more than any other major company out there.     For PvP, i would definitely trust CCP more, but over all the years of making and improving EVE, they still haven't been able to prove to me that they can make a worthwhile PvE element.   Not that EVE doesn't have PvE, but let's be honest, what makes EVE the amazing game is the PvP.

I agree with most of this.

I would also add, that aside from actually developing the games, SOE is very, very bad at managing an MMO well over the long term. And I am not talking about just SWG, basically everything not EQ2.

They leave exploits and bugs in game for extended periods without fixing them, and often the fixes are rebroken in subsequent updates. And have even lied about that some things ARE bugs or broken. "Working as intended." Remember that one?

When one of SOE's games gets too old, they just stick on maintence mode with 1 or 2 devs and basically do the minimum. That might as well be the company motto now: "SOE: We do the minimum."

SOE is just a poor MMO company now, if they were ever good.

 

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2552

World > Quest Progression

9/19/12 9:04:04 PM#56
Burntvet

Please tell me you'll be around for the buildup and release for EQN.

Pure awesomeness I can already yell.
  Burntvet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2800

9/19/12 9:09:24 PM#57
Originally posted by Aelious
Burntvet

Please tell me you'll be around for the buildup and release for EQN.

Pure awesomeness I can already yell.

There is no accounting for taste.

 

  Lethargic_Synapse

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/09/12
Posts: 67

Played: UO, EQ, EQ2, WoW, AoC, DNDO, Aion, FFXI, LOTRO, RoM, DCUO.

9/19/12 9:10:38 PM#58
It'll only be good if they keep the EQ model, which they probably won't unfortunately...
  QuicklyScott

Novice Member

Joined: 4/27/12
Posts: 448

The opinion of a penguin.

9/19/12 9:15:32 PM#59

What a silly OP.  Can they be trusted? I don't understand....It's not like they would danger anything if they made it.  There's nothing for us to lose.

 Did you mean:  Using your predjudice, do you think they will do a good job of making a sandbox?

-Meh, I dunno.  No harm in them trying.

  truthhurts

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/14/12
Posts: 75

9/19/12 10:24:53 PM#60
Originally posted by NaughtyP

SOE is always one step forward, one step backward to me. Honestly, I think they really want to do right by gamers for the most part. But it's the constant major screwups (SWG NGE, Vanguard, big security debacles, etc.) that sour people on SOE. If they kept their stuff in order for a few years without any major screwups, and released quality games during that time, there is no doubt in my mind they would "repair" their image quickly.

SWG NGE = no one knows how much SoE was involved.  All signs point to mostly LA

Vanguard = SoE did nothing wrong here, they developed the game for 18 months while taking a loss, then got tired of taking a loss...what is the negative here?

Big security debacles = Trion and Blizzard have had security issues too.  this is an industry wide issue

 

SoE has some negatives for sure, but some people want to hate them so bad they can't think logically.

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