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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Am I the only one that misses leveling over years?

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138 posts found
  User Deleted
9/24/12 4:17:33 AM#101


Originally posted by Wardop
To those who don't understand why we enjoyed the long levels and the time, who say if you want to level more, just roll an alt... I say this.

 

In DAoC I was Wardop Bunnyslayer, the mighty purple paladin.

My guild knew it. My alliance knew it. My server knew it.  The people on the other realms I fought against knew it.

A vast majority of the time I was online I was Wardop Bunnyslayer, a paladin. Because, if I ever wanted to have a max level or all the cool stuff that goes with it, if I wanted to keep pace with my friends,  I needed to be Wardop most of the time.

And, most importantly to me, what Wardop did and said mattered, because I was Wardop Bunnyslayer, a paladin.

 

In WoW... Today I might be Wardop, tomorrow I might be someone completely different. Because it doesn't matter, I can level 10 alts in the time it took to get Wardop Bunnyslayer half way to max level.


So true...

  mindw0rk

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/31/06
Posts: 1350

9/26/12 5:39:38 PM#102
I think there shouldnt be leveling at all in future MMORPGs. 
  Bossalinie

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/29/07
Posts: 619

9/26/12 5:46:57 PM#103
Originally posted by Wardop

To those who don't understand why we enjoyed the long levels and the time, who say if you want to level more, just roll an alt... I say this.

 

In DAoC I was Wardop Bunnyslayer, the mighty purple paladin.

My guild knew it. My alliance knew it. My server knew it.  The people on the other realms I fought against knew it.

A vast majority of the time I was online I was Wardop Bunnyslayer, a paladin. Because, if I ever wanted to have a max level or all the cool stuff that goes with it, if I wanted to keep pace with my friends,  I needed to be Wardop most of the time.

And, most importantly to me, what Wardop did and said mattered, because I was Wardop Bunnyslayer, a paladin.

 

In WoW... Today I might be Wardop, tomorrow I might be someone completely different. Because it doesn't matter, I can level 10 alts in the time it took to get Wardop Bunnyslayer half way to max level.

Thank God, though, that it is no longer cool to be popular in game. Way too many people playing MMOs now in days to try to establish yourself as a snowflake.

  Phaserlight

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/18/04
Posts: 688

Do you want to improve the world? I don't think it can be done. -Lao Tzu

9/28/12 4:15:00 PM#104

Vendetta has the most hardcore leveling curve evah...  I've been playing for 9 years and I am only level 14/13/11/12/8!

One of the highest licenses I've seen is level 22.

"To be what you are not, experience what you are not." -Saint John of the Cross
Authored 110 missions in Vendetta Online
Check it out on Steam

  Presbytier

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/12/10
Posts: 426

9/29/12 10:09:49 AM#105
The whole game should ba a gradual progression from one thing to the next. I believe games allow you to level way too fast. For instance SW:TOR made the main game the main thing, but the leveling proccess was too quick and the devs could not create content fast enough to satiate the need to consume more. This is why it should take longer to get to max level so it gives devs more time to create more content.

"Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game."-Guybrush Threepwood
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me."-Hunter S. Thompson

  HB1870

Novice Member

Joined: 4/25/12
Posts: 2

9/29/12 11:57:32 AM#106

I agree with the OP as well.

I've noticed that as the technology gets better, the one thing that made the MMO genre truly unique, a thriving and tight-knit community, has been slowly stripped away. Wardop made a good point in an earlier post when he said people across his old server knew who he was when he played his paladin and yet, now we can have multiple characters that mean less to the community... and let's face it, less to us as players.

For better or worse, the innovations and services that have made MMOs more accessable to a wider range of people seem to have removed any sense of responsibility and decency from the online communities. Why be generous with our groupmates, or even attempt to be civil, when cross-server dungeon finders have made it so that you will probably never see those people again? Have you gained a bad reputation on your server due to your own actions? No problem! Just simply reroll or toss down some cash for a name change or server transfer and your tarnished history is instantly forgiven.

For me, it's these things that have made me long for the MMOs of a decade-plus ago. I remember when the communities held those in it to higher standards. Due to soloing being the least efficient method of leveling back then, if it was even possible, we grouped together and helped those in the same position as ourself. We actually needed each other in those days and because of that, we made friends. Friends that actually seemed to matter and perhaps we would even come to care about their personal lives outside of the game. If someone was an utter tool, we called them out on it and could go so far as to try and blacklist them if the offense warranted it.

Now I log into whatever game I'm playing this week and find that the community is pretty much the same wherever I am. Rarely do I meet people that I genuinely care to know anymore. No one respects anyone else and there's a constant battle being waged in chat.  In some games, I find myself completely turning off general chat due to the incredible levels of hate being spewed back and forth. Don't even get me started on communities in beta tests. GM's try to moderate, sure, but short of banning half the player base, what else can they do?

While we talk about sandbox vs. themepark, endgame vs. the journey to get there, and working for what we receive vs. welfare loot systems... the one thing that strikes me as being most important above all else is; If it's even possible, how do we get back to fostering a self-maintained, responsible, online community that can refrain from becoming engulfed in the Call of Duty insult-slinging mentality? Once there, will we ever see another time where our actions actually matter and people care about what we do in-game and out?

Maybe it's just me and that I'm the one that's changed with age, but I'm sure I can't be the only one that feels this way about our beloved genre. Until we figure it out, I'll be dreaming of days spent hawking my wares in the East Commonlands tunnel surrounded by hundreds of people that I actually kind of know. XD

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3481

9/29/12 4:19:35 PM#107
Originally posted by HB1870

/snip

Once there, will we ever see another time where our actions actually matter and people care about what we do in-game and out?

Maybe it's just me and that I'm the one that's changed with age, but I'm sure I can't be the only one that feels this way about our beloved genre. Until we figure it out, I'll be dreaming of days spent hawking my wares in the East Commonlands tunnel surrounded by hundreds of people that I actually kind of know. XD

With the popularity of MMOs now hitting millions, this is working as intended.

Think of a community with 1M+ (like say a RL CITY), would you try to know all of them? Or expect everyone to be nice to you?

There is this thing called a guild. :P

In-game guilds are generally drama prone which is why you should try to find a good community first. 

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  HB1870

Novice Member

Joined: 4/25/12
Posts: 2

9/30/12 1:29:52 AM#108

I seemed to have missed a connection to the OP that I had initially planned to make so I'll add it here. It's my theory part of the reason that communities aren't as tight-knit anymore is due to the shortened leveling-arcs. We no longer spend years playing the same character to achieve max level so there is less time to establish solid relationships with those around our level range. In modern MMOs, one can rush a character to high level in the time it used to take us to reach level 20-30. Due to this, we no longer need to worry about maintaining stellar reputations on our servers because it's almost easier just to make a new character.

I agree that as populations get larger, it's unlikely that we'll come to know everyone we're playing with. That is naturally what would be expected. I'm more concerned that developers continue to put systems in place (i.e. faster leveling, dungeon/raid finders for example) that, in a sense, promote the disintegration of a friendly on-line community.

I've been a part of many guilds over the last 13 years and for the most part, they have been smaller family guilds. I've found great people within these guilds and they are one of the reasons I continue to play MMOs. The larger guilds I've been in are certainly more drama-prone, but that's also to be expected with so many different personality types coming together. It's the same in RL of course.

What I was getting at was that players now seem more aggressive and hateful than they did in the past. Perhaps as more people have started playing, those that used to flame chatrooms and forums have moved into the online gaming community as another outlet for trolling. I'm not entirely sure of the reason, but it certainly seems to have gotten worse as times goes on.

 

  Dreamo84

Defender of Worlds

Joined: 5/20/04
Posts: 2814

I actually still like MMORPGs

9/30/12 1:39:01 AM#109

oh god, camping out in a single spot for hours upon hours upon hours...good lord i dont know how I did it!

People complain about repeating dungeons, how do you think they'd feel about sitting in a little room waiting for mobs to pop up, killing them, then waiting some more.

  Ausare

Novice Member

Joined: 3/23/11
Posts: 870

9/30/12 1:40:22 AM#110
I remember when men were gentlemen and ladies were ladies. In my day a man was his word. People could leave their doors unlocked.

Face it socuety has changed and us changing. We are not socially evolving upward. Why would the game would be any different.

In eve people get reps. It does not stop the ass clowns there.

The newer generations that have grown up with the internet was less socially restrainded when they are behind the keyboard. Consequences in society have become less for bad behavior. No game is goung to return the congenial society unless a mid is standing there with a ban hammer enforcing manners.
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19281

10/01/12 12:16:14 PM#111
Originally posted by Fendel84M

oh god, camping out in a single spot for hours upon hours upon hours...good lord i dont know how I did it!

People complain about repeating dungeons, how do you think they'd feel about sitting in a little room waiting for mobs to pop up, killing them, then waiting some more.

Repeated killing is fine. In fact, combat *is* fun .. that is why people spend 700 hours in Diablo3, or keep playing COD.

But sitting and waiting doing nothing? That is why i quit EQ.

  fenistil

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 3016

10/01/12 12:45:57 PM#112

Yeah I miss long progression till the end too.    It does not need just long "levelling" though.  It would need in example removal of quest gps and majority of hand-holding & markers.   

Cause what allowed me to level / progress in non-level games for so long was that I had to uncover alot of things by myself instead of having given it on a platter.   

I would not stand 6 months of following arrow / markers in endless series of easy quests.

  pkpkpk

Novice Member

Joined: 8/22/10
Posts: 74

10/03/12 3:20:11 PM#113
I understand what you mean in a sense,  but simplifying it to 'leveling takes a long time' is failing to mention an underlying philosophy. If you truly miss slow leveling then perhaps I misunderstand you; 'cause you can drag a game like GW2 or WoW: Cataclysm on for ages and it will suck just as much after 100 hours as it will suck after 30 minutes, in my opinion. Games with slow leveling (EQ, EQ2, FF XI, WoW) had more at work than just the speed. And there were good games with fast leveling like Shadowbane. And there were shitty old games with slow leveling like Lineage 2.
  Goatgod76

Novice Member

Joined: 6/24/06
Posts: 1226

10/03/12 3:22:14 PM#114
Originally posted by Gravarg

I guess you could call me old school, or a grumpy old man, but I truly miss the old days when it took at least 6 months to level to max level.  In today's games it takes maybe a week, if you're slow, to get to max level.  I truly believe that in MMOs, unlike other games, the "end" should never be there.  Yes, today's developers add in content for capped characters to do, but it's just not the same as leveling up.  Take Guild Wars 2 for instance, I heard that a player leveled from level 1-80 in 2 days...really?  That couldn't be fun at all, and it misses the whole point of MMOs.  I think alot of developers (and players) have forgotten that in MMOs the "endgame" isn't what MMOs are about.  It's about exploration, discovery, learning new things, and yes killing.  Old MMOs had more to do with learning than today's MMOs.  Today's MMOs you can log in day one, and never have to go find some spreadsheet telling you which weapon is best for your level.  Today's MMOs you never have to go to a wiki, or heaven-forbid, buy an actual book with a map and how-tos, just so you don't get lost.

 

I know there will probably never be a game like old EQ or old DAoC or old Ultima Online or really old Neverwinter Nights, back when it took a minimum of 6 months to get to the end.  Heck, in the original DAoC it took longer to get the last 2 levels than it does to get to cap in today's games.  Alas, there is no real reason for developers to make games like this anymore.  The majority of players aren't like me.  They want thier rewards upfront and as soon as possible.  They don't want to spend hours on end killing things or doing quests just to get a single level.  They want 20 levels in that time.

 

Just my two cents from an old dinosaur lol.

Took me a full year to get to 65 on my Beastlord in EQ. =)

  smh_alot

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/10/12
Posts: 990

10/03/12 3:33:26 PM#115
@OP: I get what you're saying. The leveling in EQ took ages, but it had the effect that every hard won level truly meant something, with the new shiny spells you got feeling like treasures you earned, more powerful, better, even if they were often just stronger versions than the ones you have.

Maybe it's all just psychological quirks, but to me it seems like they managed to hit the right spot more often with seemingly random features than I'd have thought. I get the disadvantage it brings, as in not being able to do group stuff with friends that are higher level and they not able to group in a fun way with you, and this the case for ages. But the downside of quick leveling is that in the end, it loses meaning and value. More of a transit station on your way to the destination, and less a case where the journey is as equally important if not more as the destination itself.
  keenber

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/10/07
Posts: 434

10/03/12 3:43:51 PM#116

I played EQ from beta and after a year i was only 18 i think it took me another year or longer to max out. Now with eq there was lots to do at every lvl not just max lvl ( it has  changed somewhat since then ) like raids or boss mobs that droped huge gear for that lvl.

Why cant games make goals for every lvl that once your past that lvl there is no going back ( like the vox raids in EQ ) maybe peeps wouldnt be or feel a need to max out in the first week then.

The journy should be more fun than the result so there should be no need to get to max lvl fast.

  FastTx

Novice Member

Joined: 8/23/05
Posts: 754

10/03/12 3:48:55 PM#117
Originally posted by Sovrath

I think the problem is the whole "I must get levels in order to do the fun stuff".

As opposed to all this fun stuff where leveling makes it easier or makes one more effective but there is always something fun to do at your current level.

The other issue is gear but if there is going to be some sort of gear progression then maybe one can break down their gear toward crafting new gear or adding enchants, etc.

Or dont' have gear progression per se, just have several levelsof gear where the highest is hard to make and expensive to make and the lowest is cheap but "ok" and possible to use though not desirable.

 

I follow Sovrath's opinion on leveling. Probably because we both played Lineage 2 for years and we were both on the same server. I remember watching that noob Spellhowler nuking mobs in Blazing Swamp back in the day. A game with an endless leveling system doesn't have to be a grind, I was never in a rush to hit max level, but I was always in a rush to improve my character through all means and make friends through the complex clan and politic system in L2.

I remember vividly back in Chronicle 2 where I lead the alliance "Enchanted" composed of 300+ players from 10 different middle of the road clans. Those days are still very dear to me as an MMO gamer. No game since has captured me like Lineage 2 had back in the day. I even still play private servers from time to time when a group of old L2 buddies want to have some good times in L2 once again.

You didn't need to be 75+ to be effective in Lineage 2. You still did damage and were still effective at lower levels as low as mid 50's because thats when you flesh out your core skills and that only took as long to get to as it takes to hit maximum level in todays MMO's.

Since Lineage 2 I've always yearned for the ability to always feel like I was progressing in something even if I was just whacking mindlessly away at mobs. Most MMO's nowadays require you to do specific tasks at max level in order to progress. I find that iritating.

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4465

10/03/12 4:46:45 PM#118

 

I remember back in old WoW. Leveling was only a grind when you tried to bypass content . They had grinds built into the game, but if you did them appropriately, they made the game worth doing.

For example. I recall as a paladin, doing the quest line to get Verigan's Fist. It was a long haul but what a weapon for a low level pally. Remember the Tanaris quest to gather Dew glands? Oh what an awful quest. But it was one of Blizz's many built in grinds. Sure it sucked when you had to do it, but It was hella fun when 5 people in the middle of Sunken Temple were all Mosh Pit Rockin out. LOL. Or the Furlbog feather grind in Felwood. Yeah, that was a pain. Too many players just wanted to get past hated so they could go through the cave un-attacked. But I went to Honored before leaving Felwood. I got an awesome Leather Working belt pattern that was really worth getting. For a character in their 50s, it carried me to 60. Not to mention making a small fortune selling them in the AH. There was also the Ferelas quest for the Wild Leather cloaks. After getting the recipe, I stopped to do a little grinding to make these. Some were not so good, some were worth a lot in the AH.  There was also the 10 level quantum leap. Each level was an incremental power up, but the 10th levels were big ones. 

All these little things added up along the way and they truly enhanced the overall journey to cap. And since you spent days to weeks at a given level range, these little things were important and worth doing.

Now with levels lasting only hours, there is little point to maintaining professions while leveling. it's not even worth it to slow down enough to make appropriate gear anymore. It occurred to me in MoP right now, leveling a monk that the best way to level crafting is to wait until cap (or at least no sooner than 60) to start. then you can get flight and power level it much faster. Maintaining professions "at level" are useless time sinks now. and none of the formerly valuable rare and/or side recipies are even worth the time out of your path to visit the vendor to get much less an involved quest or rep grind. 

I recall starting a quest chain in the upper 60s during the TBC expansion that lead me through a long series of quest chains, then into a couple dungeons and then finally to the black temple where I had to take down a 5 man elite. I got a pair of quested blue pants that I never replaced on my hunter. I was in Gruuls #2 in DPS wearing blues. HA! Point is, that now, the pants have no value so neither does doing the quest chain. It's just easier to grind Heroics now to get any legs you need.  There was another 5 man quest in SMV that got me a cool looking Dragon head looking helm on my hunter. That was a great helm and lasted until I got my Tiered helm.

All these things that used to enhance the overall experience, that were things that were worth doing and weren't gotten from grinding dungeons and raids are gone. They are pointless and/or obsolete because they are harder to get than Epics.

 

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  Beatnik59

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 2146

"Playing things I shouldn''t be playing since 1977."

10/03/12 11:17:13 PM#119

I've always slow levelled.

Ever since I started in Star Wars Galaxies, back before the NGE, I slow levelled.  You see, I always thought there was something fundamentally wrong with healing rollers on the floor to gain XP, rather than healing the people who had wounds.  I always thought something was fundamentally wrong with setting your entertainer AFK on an automated script.  And I also thought that it was wasteful and tasteless to craft things only to delete them, and not sell them.

You see, when I played SWG, there was a race to unlock Jedi.  And the way you unlocked Jedi was to master all kinds of professions quickly.  So people started to just grind XP, instead of doing the things that needed to be done for the good of the community.  It was "quite acceptable" in those days to say "FU" to everyone else and go grinding.

But not me.  I did all of the things the right way, because--for me--it was more important to play in the spirit of the game than it is to grind to endgame.  After all, we always have time to grind to Jedi...don't we?

...or do we?

See, while I was "slow levelling," SOE was in the process of designing its NGE: a radical redesign of the game that would, ultimately, push me out.  And when they released it, all I had was regret: regret I didn't go to the Warrens more.  Regret that I didn't grind to max level in space flight.  Regret I never got to Jedi, back when Jedi was good, and the game was good.

It's the same thing with City of Heroes.  You see, I always played with the mindset of, "I'll always have time to grind to max level.  Why not do things like roleplay, or help others out?  You'll always have the time to do everything you want."

..That is...until the publisher shuts the game down, and all you have is regret that you didn't use the time you had.

I understand where you are coming from, Gravarg and friends.  You are preaching to the chorus.  But how can any of you say in good consciense that we ought not to speed grind when the games change so radically, without warning, and without recourse?

You can't blame a person for wanting to speed grind through everything ASAP, when the games can shut down ASAP at any time, for any reason.  I mean, heck.  APB closed 80 days after launch.  We've had radical redesigns and refocusings.  We've had featured dropped, features morphed, rules changed, content crumble, and avenues of advancement collapse.

And the only players who seem to whether these changes, or at least fare better, are the people who go out of their way to advance quickly, without much of a concern for the "spirit of the game."  The ones who tend to be hurt most by it are the slow levellers, the ones who are actually playing the game in a measured, "honest" way.  In other words, the good players always get the shaft.

There's a very good reason that people who play these games tend to rush to max level ASAP, and consume content as quickly as possible.  Time is not on a player's side in the fast-paced culture of MMO development, and the slow player never goes unpunished.

 

__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken

"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  strangewizard

Novice Member

Joined: 9/16/12
Posts: 42

10/04/12 12:49:39 AM#120
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

 

I remember back in old WoW. Leveling was only a grind when you tried to bypass content . They had grinds built into the game, but if you did them appropriately, they made the game worth doing.

For example. I recall as a paladin, doing the quest line to get Verigan's Fist. It was a long haul but what a weapon for a low level pally. Remember the Tanaris quest to gather Dew glands? Oh what an awful quest. But it was one of Blizz's many built in grinds. Sure it sucked when you had to do it, but It was hella fun when 5 people in the middle of Sunken Temple were all Mosh Pit Rockin out. LOL. Or the Furlbog feather grind in Felwood. Yeah, that was a pain. Too many players just wanted to get past hated so they could go through the cave un-attacked. But I went to Honored before leaving Felwood. I got an awesome Leather Working belt pattern that was really worth getting. For a character in their 50s, it carried me to 60. Not to mention making a small fortune selling them in the AH. There was also the Ferelas quest for the Wild Leather cloaks. After getting the recipe, I stopped to do a little grinding to make these. Some were not so good, some were worth a lot in the AH.  There was also the 10 level quantum leap. Each level was an incremental power up, but the 10th levels were big ones. 

All these little things added up along the way and they truly enhanced the overall journey to cap. And since you spent days to weeks at a given level range, these little things were important and worth doing.

Now with levels lasting only hours, there is little point to maintaining professions while leveling. it's not even worth it to slow down enough to make appropriate gear anymore. It occurred to me in MoP right now, leveling a monk that the best way to level crafting is to wait until cap (or at least no sooner than 60) to start. then you can get flight and power level it much faster. Maintaining professions "at level" are useless time sinks now. and none of the formerly valuable rare and/or side recipies are even worth the time out of your path to visit the vendor to get much less an involved quest or rep grind. 

I recall starting a quest chain in the upper 60s during the TBC expansion that lead me through a long series of quest chains, then into a couple dungeons and then finally to the black temple where I had to take down a 5 man elite. I got a pair of quested blue pants that I never replaced on my hunter. I was in Gruuls #2 in DPS wearing blues. HA! Point is, that now, the pants have no value so neither does doing the quest chain. It's just easier to grind Heroics now to get any legs you need.  There was another 5 man quest in SMV that got me a cool looking Dragon head looking helm on my hunter. That was a great helm and lasted until I got my Tiered helm.

All these things that used to enhance the overall experience, that were things that were worth doing and weren't gotten from grinding dungeons and raids are gone. They are pointless and/or obsolete because they are harder to get than Epics.

 

Ah man you made me really nostalgic...

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