Originally posted by Onecrazyguy

Originally posted by laserit

I wish we would just forget about this concept of level's. I would rather log into a world and collect my gear and skill's through adventure. 

I'm a fan of the virtual world.

How is that possible? People will always find a way to mark themselves based upon their progression. SWG didn't have levels yet people would say "I'm a creature handler 4433" for instance. People WANT a way to see their characters improve and be able to show others their accomplishments. Not sure what game mechanic can not be labeled while at the same time showing players progression as they play...

IMHO it would be much cooler to fight my may through a well thought out dungeon to fulfill some bargain with a cursed warrior to recieve payment in the form of a  skill, then to visit the local trainer when I ding 32.

Accomplishment could be shown by the skill's, gear  and medal's you could collect as well as many other ways that are only limited by creativity.

I really like GW2's concept of collecting skill point's through places of power and challenges. This would be really cool to expand upon.

I would just like to see the genre get away from this level cap mentality.

But that's just me

Originally posted by Dragonantis

Long term lvling only ever benefits people who were around at the start of the game, take Atlantica Online for instance, the main players are mostly poeple who have played since the game launched, that games such a grindfest to get any sort of exp new players dont even try.

Thus the model doesnt appeal to newer players after the exp crunch of mid lvls sets in.

I actually agree with this. There is no incentive for new players to join a game when the high level players are way beyond them.

my thought is that there should be horizontal and vertical leveling. This way the nwe players might be able to join content that the old players are doing but might not be "as effective" until they put time into their characters.

I'm not really sure what the answer is since the concept of leveling and long leveling doesn't lend well to new players joining the game.

One might say mentoring but my thought about that is "why even have levels t begin with if you can suddenly join a group and be "at level".

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Dragonantis

Long term lvling only ever benefits people who were around at the start of the game, take Atlantica Online for instance, the main players are mostly poeple who have played since the game launched, that games such a grindfest to get any sort of exp new players dont even try.

Thus the model doesnt appeal to newer players after the exp crunch of mid lvls sets in.

I actually agree with this. There is no incentive for new players to join a game when the high level players are way beyond them.

my thought is that there should be horizontal and vertical leveling. This way the nwe players might be able to join content that the old players are doing but might not be "as effective" until they put time into their characters.

I'm not really sure what the answer is since the concept of leveling and long leveling doesn't lend well to new players joining the game.

One might say mentoring but my thought about that is "why even have levels t begin with if you can suddenly join a group and be "at level".

 

There is always someone who is better than you in life. Why does anyone bother going to college? There are already thousands of college graduates who are in the workforce. This is another entitlement generation issue. You people are in for a rude awakening when you get out from your sheltered domes and realize that life isn't fair and balanced.

Originally posted by GravargI know there will probably never be a game like old EQ or old DAoC or old Ultima Online or really old Neverwinter Nights, back when it took a minimum of 6 months to get to the end. 
 

Neverwinter Nights Release date June 18, 2002

EverQuest Release date 16 March 1999

Dark Age of Camelot Release date October 10, 2001

Ultima Online Release date September 24, 1997

So the game that are most resent released are really old but the others are only old

Originally posted by ohpower

Well, play less. If you play 1h/day with a character, I can tell you it'll take you months to lvl him up. And you can spend your time doing other stuff too in the meantime.

Sure so if i want to play more then 1 hour, what do i do?

More generally, these very long drawn out leveling phases have two problems: they create a major chasm between a very small minority who gets to max in a month and an overwhelming majority who gets to cap in a year, making it hard to create content for everyone at the same time, breaking community apart etc... and it's the best spot for gold/exp sellers, which means phising, hacking, and all the great fun.

You do realise that this is the exact problem of mmos these day, some reach max lvl in 1 weeks ans other in 1-2 months, so this is way harder to create content for everyone since you have 1-2 month to do so before people leave because there are bored.. and like there are no gold sellers in todays mmos lol.

Finally, there's also a good way for you to get over that problem; play any P2W game without paying, and grind your way through all the levels. It's not fun to me, but at least once you'll have gotten to cap, I'm sure you'll be attached to your character... to each his own I guess

I would if these game where any good.. but most of them have no good crafting, no explorations, no social aspect, no living world etc etc.. like you said each his own but wait where is my own kind a games? o yeah i dont have one cause devs listen only to you.

 

Originally posted by TruthXHurts

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Dragonantis

Long term lvling only ever benefits people who were around at the start of the game, take Atlantica Online for instance, the main players are mostly poeple who have played since the game launched, that games such a grindfest to get any sort of exp new players dont even try.

Thus the model doesnt appeal to newer players after the exp crunch of mid lvls sets in.

I actually agree with this. There is no incentive for new players to join a game when the high level players are way beyond them.

my thought is that there should be horizontal and vertical leveling. This way the nwe players might be able to join content that the old players are doing but might not be "as effective" until they put time into their characters.

I'm not really sure what the answer is since the concept of leveling and long leveling doesn't lend well to new players joining the game.

One might say mentoring but my thought about that is "why even have levels t begin with if you can suddenly join a group and be "at level".

 

There is always someone who is better than you in life. Why does anyone bother going to college? There are already thousands of college graduates who are in the workforce. This is another entitlement generation issue. You people are in for a rude awakening when you get out from your sheltered domes and realize that life isn't fair and balanced.

I think you are missing the point.

I'm all for people workin hard and being better because of it. I'm very ok with people being "better off" than others.

I played Lineage 2 for 4.5 years and in the start it was very clear that clan leaders had more powers and perks than the clan. It was initially designed that way as they had to give up gold and xp to level the clan and it was considered "their clan".

The point however, is a larger one affecting players and the game.

if players feel that they can never really catch up, especially because these games tend to slow down as far as new players are concerned, then there is no incentive for new players to play. No new players means eventually the population will become slower as older players lose interest, take breaks, move on, etc.

As it is, the idea of the mmo community is a pyramid scheme. People leave at the top and new people come in at the bottom. In theory it seems to work but the reality is that the population will become smaller and smaller until only a few die hards are around. Which then means less money which means less development.

The trick is to allow players to be better but allow new players to feel like they can be a part of it AND give them incentive to work hard toward bettering themselves.

and this is not an entitlement issue, i'm from the generation where we still walked to school up hill both ways. And I'm older than you.

First you say taking a week and i do think its pushing a bit far for the heck of it. Lets take a regular player, semi hardcore but taking his time, having a full time job and familly, i take approximatively 2 to 4 months to max level in today's game. And overall i think its ok, a long adventure is cool but too long is too long.

I was there since Ultima online and the leveling hell started with Everquest, sure it was long but was there so many content ? Doing the same dungeon again and again and again to max level (sol b, lguk come to mind) or grinding a 50m² of a zone for a repop, having barelly no quest at all ? was it really involving ? Did u really had the feeling of playing your character or grinding the hell out of it.

Human mind is good to trick you, and for sure like you i had the feeling that before was better, but was it the game ? No it sure was me, my inexperience and the novelty of a genre gave me fond memory and it should stay realisticly to that, a good memory.

Nowday games like Guild wars 2 take less time to max level, but i have the feeling i am doing more, and doing a more vibrant and moving story than what i was used to do before. There is even tons of replayability and i can restart for scratch with an almost complete new content.

I remember as well being unhappy with ranger back in eq day and not able to reroll because it was taking too much time, and that is the worst memory i had with the game, being stuck to one character because i had too much playtime behind me, i don't want that anymore

I'll use this as an opportunity to suggest once again the concept I have of how an MMO that meant to be played for years. 

There need to be tiers of adventuring (Yeah DnD 4e stole this idea from me). The first teir is the learning curve tier, it is where you do basic quests learn about your class/skills/abilities (whatever system is the foundation). In this teir you are essential a squire (or class logical equivalent). 

The next tier would be the Heroic teir, in this tier you continue to level in the traditional linear manner of most MMOs (even in a level-less system you gain xp and skills), but the subject matter of your battles becomes heroic. You no longer are in training you are fighting enemies that pose threats to your world, you are gaining reknown and you are forming your legend. 

The third tier is the Band of Heroes tier, this is where your adventures require a band of heroes and followers. STO and SWTOR have attempted to add this element, but not on a level that I think befits the subject matter. All heroes have their sidekicks and allies. Beowulf had Wiglaf, Arthur had the knights of the round table, Han had Chewbacca. Now what distinguishes these NPC's from your PC's that you group with is that they are an extension of your character, they are important because they help you shape your character more fully, you have control of them unlike your fellow players. This is preparing you for the paradigm shift in the next teir by making you manage more than just you character.

The fourth tier is the Leadership teir, not only are you a leader of a heroic band, but you are now you gain control over more "subjects' Beowulf became king of the Geats, Arthur was King of the Britains, Conan became king, Han became a general, Luke rebuilt the Jedi Order, Kirk was the commander of hundreds of personel. This is where the game paradigm shifts you now control the growth of something larger than a character or a band of characters. Be it territory, a ship, an army. Essentially you are given resouces, in a PvE game these resource can be used to help your faction in the PvE conflict against the enemy factions. In a PvP game these resources are fought over on a more personal level and peoples fortunes and status can wax and wane. 

Throughout all of these tiers (aside form tier 1) you can return to adventure in content of the other tiers and still grow in various ways, be it through gear or preseitge. 

For me this is the kind of leveling I would dedicate years to, it doesn't force me to do the same thing day in and day out, nor does it make one tier the only reason to level and play the game. I could dedicate as much time to which ever teir I wanted (once I unlock them all) or not even participate in a teir if I didn't enjoy it. Of course a game like this requires vast amounts of content and I don't believe the tech is there to turn out such content at a profitiable rate just yet. We'll see what the future holds though. 

Originally posted by TruthXHurts

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Dragonantis

Long term lvling only ever benefits people who were around at the start of the game, take Atlantica Online for instance, the main players are mostly poeple who have played since the game launched, that games such a grindfest to get any sort of exp new players dont even try.

Thus the model doesnt appeal to newer players after the exp crunch of mid lvls sets in.

I actually agree with this. There is no incentive for new players to join a game when the high level players are way beyond them.

my thought is that there should be horizontal and vertical leveling. This way the nwe players might be able to join content that the old players are doing but might not be "as effective" until they put time into their characters.

I'm not really sure what the answer is since the concept of leveling and long leveling doesn't lend well to new players joining the game.

One might say mentoring but my thought about that is "why even have levels t begin with if you can suddenly join a group and be "at level".

 

There is always someone who is better than you in life. Why does anyone bother going to college? There are already thousands of college graduates who are in the workforce. This is another entitlement generation issue. You people are in for a rude awakening when you get out from your sheltered domes and realize that life isn't fair and balanced.

 Your point is invalid... here's why:

If you could *choose* a different life where everyone was rich and on equal footing would you?  A lot of people; I dare say most people, would.  People *choose* to play a game... why choose something where you're at an disadvantage?

TLDR - Gaming choice has nothing to do with real life and this an intellectually dishonest point. 

Originally posted by shrekpop

Originally posted by GravargI know there will probably never be a game like old EQ or old DAoC or old Ultima Online or really old Neverwinter Nights, back when it took a minimum of 6 months to get to the end. 
 

Neverwinter Nights Release date June 18, 2002

EverQuest Release date 16 March 1999

Dark Age of Camelot Release date October 10, 2001

Ultima Online Release date September 24, 1997

So the game that are most resent released are really old but the others are only old

Shows what you really know. trying to make him look foolish. Your taking about the NWN that came out then, not the one he is talking about that came out in mid 90s, but then you are probally the generation the op is talking about that would not like the grind and wants it all now.

Originally posted by Acidon

Remember when they added the little blue line to the experience bar in EQ?  So that you could almost see your XP move, representing a fraction of one bubble? =)   That was back when there were still "hell levels".

Don't know that blue line (never played EQ to start with), but I remember the phrase "0.01% XP per hour" from Lineage II. Been there myself and enjoyed it. As long as I was with friends (or clan) playing in party. Though the XP and average in party was lower than playing solo, being in party was WAY MORE FUN than playing solo.

Originally posted by Bruise187

Originally posted by shrekpop

Originally posted by GravargI know there will probably never be a game like old EQ or old DAoC or old Ultima Online or really old Neverwinter Nights, back when it took a minimum of 6 months to get to the end. 
 

Neverwinter Nights Release date June 18, 2002

EverQuest Release date 16 March 1999

Dark Age of Camelot Release date October 10, 2001

Ultima Online Release date September 24, 1997

So the game that are most resent released are really old but the others are only old

Shows what you really know. trying to make him look foolish. Your taking about the NWN that came out then, not the one he is talking about that came out in mid 90s, but then you are probally the generation the op is talking about that would not like the grind and wants it all now.

The Neverwinter nights being talked about I believe is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwinter_Nights_(AOL_game)

Originally posted by Dragonantis

Long term lvling only ever benefits people who were around at the start of the game, take Atlantica Online for instance, the main players are mostly poeple who have played since the game launched, that games such a grindfest to get any sort of exp new players dont even try.

Thus the model doesnt appeal to newer players after the exp crunch of mid lvls sets in.

I don't disagree with you that long term leveling is normally detrimental, but you picked a very poor example.    Atlantica Online uses the P2W business model and this leads to the incentive to ensure there is a large gap.  

Who would buy items to " catch up " if there was little benefit?

IMHO, most people mistake leveling as being the source of the problem, but the actual problem is with the other game mechanics.   Leveling is just the game mechanic that people see so it takes the blame.

Years of "leveling" as in I got to wait years to get cool abilities?  Yeah no thanks.

Years as in EvE where I choose to go the battle ship route or go the frigate route but maxing both might take a year sure that might be OK.

Waiting a year to be able to play your class as its disigned is crap.  Needing years and years of progression to make a class interesting rather than have the gameplay itself be interesting is also crap.

Originally posted by Leoghan

Originally posted by Bruise187

Originally posted by shrekpop

Originally posted by GravargI know there will probably never be a game like old EQ or old DAoC or old Ultima Online or really old Neverwinter Nights, back when it took a minimum of 6 months to get to the end. 
 

Neverwinter Nights Release date June 18, 2002

EverQuest Release date 16 March 1999

Dark Age of Camelot Release date October 10, 2001

Ultima Online Release date September 24, 1997

So the game that are most resent released are really old but the others are only old

Shows what you really know. trying to make him look foolish. Your taking about the NWN that came out then, not the one he is talking about that came out in mid 90s, but then you are probally the generation the op is talking about that would not like the grind and wants it all now.

The Neverwinter nights being talked about I believe is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwinter_Nights_(AOL_game)

ahh, thanks. thats the one I think he ment and I was meaning. just to lazy to look it up. thanks

I dont think we will ever see the long leveling process like we use to just for the fact many others stated: The leveling difference between freinds and guildies actually hurts the game.

The one thing I would like to see is some other (actually useful) bonuses to characters that are played for a long time.  I hate the fact that you can play 24/7, get all geared up, build a nest egg, and then a expansion or update comes out and now everyone and their brother are on completely even footing.  You can call it "epeen", but if it was just "epeen" then I would be content with the stupid cosmetic crap you get for playing the game a lot more then others.

If  I choose to play the same character say over a year, then ya, I should have access to slightly better stuff then the guy that powerleveled his character in a week.  I remember in older games looking at other players that played a longer time then me  and think, cool, cant wait till I can get to do that, or get that stuff.  Today's players look at people that played these new gameas a lot longer and say to themselves, I want that and want it now or I quit.

I miss it a lot. The whole deal with leveling made it interesting to play and gave insentive. Games like Ragnarok Online were wonderful with this in that it really felt as if your levels mattered giving you new skills and stats that boosted your character, all of which were at your control. It really gave a sense of satisfaction hitting that next level and seeing your character actually become stronger, all the while giving you complete control over your character.

Of course, games like that did have the flaw of grind (granted all games have it, it was more visible there) though it did in some way inspire freedom, having options of where to level or what to do. Some where more efficient for leveling then others, but at the same time you were opening yourself up to the chance to get a rare drop that could actually benefit your character. It was quite a long tedious grind if you looked at it a certain way, but the skills and the overall feel made it feel far less in that department and it wasn't a race to max out, it was a journey I liked.

I don't think a leveling game will exist much like that anymore with everyone so dead set on end game, but its always possible we might see it done otherways. Everquest started it off with alternate Advancement leveling which gave you benefits leveling past max. Other games followed suit, rift being one I did enjoy a lot and Diablo 3 added it in recently. Heck, even shooters have similiar methods as they introduce their own levels slowly adding perks.

I think the future leveling will be somewhat in this manor. It won't have the raw effect of gaining levels in old games, but it will be something that likely will offer choice in advancement and through small boosts, it will make your character stronger to feel like your accomplishing something.

Originally posted by gestalt11

Years of "leveling" as in I got to wait years to get cool abilities?  Yeah no thanks.

 

Years as in EvE where I choose to go the battle ship route or go the frigate route but maxing both might take a year sure that might be OK.

 

Waiting a year to be able to play your class as its disigned is crap.  Needing years and years of progression to make a class interesting rather than have the gameplay itself be interesting is also crap.

I think you are missing the point.  Success for an MMO hinges on creating a solid core playerbase and keeping it.  One of the ways older games kept their playbase was to not only keep the treadmill going and that carrot in front of you, but also giving the player a reason to develop a character over a long time and also give credit for accomplishing it.

i understand old school MMO's are not as popular as the new MMO's.  I also understand its this way because of what you mentioned.  But I think some people are trying to say that today's MMO's play a lot better and are easier and therefore more popular to play, but by developing games this way you there is some downside to it.  And on of the downsides is attachment to a character and to the game.

Originally posted by jerlot65

I dont think we will ever see the long leveling process like we use to just for the fact many others stated: The leveling difference between freinds and guildies actually hurts the game.

 

The one thing I would like to see is some other (actually useful) bonuses to characters that are played for a long time.  I hate the fact that you can play 24/7, get all geared up, build a nest egg, and then a expansion or update comes out and now everyone and their brother are on completely even footing.  You can call it "epeen", but if it was just "epeen" then I would be content with the stupid cosmetic crap you get for playing the game a lot more then others.

If  I choose to play the same character say over a year, then ya, I should have access to slightly better stuff then the guy that powerleveled his character in a week.  I remember in older games looking at other players that played a longer time then me  and think, cool, cant wait till I can get to do that, or get that stuff.  Today's players look at people that played these new gameas a lot longer and say to themselves, I want that and want it now or I quit.

I think that veteran reward systems could go a long way toward fhat end. If a game has housing, then reserve certain styles or sizes to be available only for people who have been playing x number of years. Or maybe give them optional visual effects like a glow or hue. Is it too far fetched to do a lottery once a year of the characters over x years old or /played period and the winner gets an item named after them - the name based on the weapon or armor they most used? Maybe even have their favorite haunt receive a plaque with their name?

It seems that more MMOs, and likewise their communities, could benefit from something like this, especially the mainstream MMOs where it is genuinely hard to make your mark or stand out in the game.