Originally posted by eAzydaman

If they keep the gear progression completely seperate from sPVP and WvWvW I'm fine with more gear based stuff. As mainly a PVP player and that's where I will keep my focus on endgame I like skill based games. As it stands right now I HAVE to get my exotics and ding lvl 80 too be on even footing in WvWvW. Gear does impact quite a bit.

I take it you don't care for PVP all that much ? :) I for one didn't buy this game for the PvE, I knew going in that gear was cosmetic and the endgame raiding was minimal. Anet did everything they promised, not a single lie. May have been a little over the top on how dynamic the events would be but other than that ppl should have known exactly what to except.

As for PVP players, director of sPVP has a double blog post coming soon on planned changes and new things to be implemented. Ladder rankings, custom tournaments and spectator mode will make me play this game for years to come.

I really don't understand the endgame complaint, you could see from a mile away that PVE would be really short term. If 6 months from now the PVP side hasn't changed one single bit then I will start questioning the longevity of the game.

I do like PVP. If it's just going to be "PVP for PVP's sake" (most would say "fun"), for that I play Quake. I don't get so great a pleasure from the clunky combat mechanics of MMORPGs to make it worth PVPing *all the time*. In FPSs you don't have to level, there's no lack of balance and the mechanics overall are way better, thus the combat more exhilarating. Why play an MMO purely for combat? Maybe for "massive" encounters, but then I'd probably go with PS2. 

Otherwise, anything apart from world PVP strikes me as, yeah, pretty meaningless and boring when done in repetition.

I play RPGs for exploration and other world-related activities, and stories. 

Also, about other posters who say gear is not / should not be integral to RPGs. I can understand that. I even played some that way: We used to modify some PnP RPGs so that they'd be bereft of combat systems altogether and the GM would outright call win or lose on encounters - see, we found combat was boring to us even in PnP, so we just played them for the stories.

But if there's going to be combat, I'd rather have it progression based, so that it's going to be something "your character" has a greated impact on (rather than yourself). If you dislike progression, fine, then you'd have to come up with some other system where your character matters more. At least, that's what I get from an RP game.

And ultimately saying "progression and gear is not core to RPs" still doesn't answer why you should play an RP game where your twitch skill matters much more than that of your character. 

Originally posted by grimal

DnD (1975) precedes Traveller and by all accounts has set the standard for table-top roleplaying games.  The system's core design was based on leveling your characters through experience and attaining better gear and equipment through modules and adventures.

Even the earliest CRPGS (Bard's Tale, etc) followed these core mechanics.  So contrary to what you may state, popular RPGs have always been about level and gear progression (these were not invented by WoW).

By removing these, you are in essence, taking away one of the original concepts of RPGs. 

Now, I am not saying this is not moving in a different direction; it is.  But you can't simply deny that these elements have not been part of the core gameplay.

Edit: playing for fun is a subjective statement.  What may be fun for one, is not for another.  Personally, I played RPGs to roleplay.  Yet, MMORPGS seem to have very little of that these days.  So what is left for me is the character progression.  You take away that and it's really a barren world with no sense of purpose.  Sure, I can run around and explore, but I can also do that in my RL.  I don't play these games just to do the things I can in my ordinary life;  I do them to do things I can't do in it.  I speak for myself, but without the progression, I have no sense of purpose in the world and therefore little drive to inhibit it.

I'm well aware of the history of roleplaying games. My point was 2 years after D&D came out we had our first level-less, non-progression-focused RPG so the idea that what GW2 is doing by de-emphasizing gear is only "new" in the context of a themepark, triple-A MMO. EVE has no levels to speak of, is nowhere near as gear-centric as EQ/WoW Clones, and offers a "progression" system radically different from those games as well. Yet many on this site consider it one of the best MMOs ever made.

Just because EverQuest was based on DIKU-mud and WoW picked up that model as well does not in ANY way mean that "level and gear progression" are a core part of RPGs, nor do they need to be a core part of MMORPGs. They are currently a standard element but they certainly don't need to be (and many would argue (and have) that removing artifical "levels" and "gear grind" will be overall much better for the genre going forward).

In my original response I already said what is fun and enjoyable is subjective. Where I am disagreeing with you is specifically on this idea that "levels and gear" are core elements and that a game isn't an RPG without them. You may not like GW2's implementation. You may prefer levels. All fine. Just be aware that there are a lot of gamers out there who want that model "to die a fiery death" (or at the very least to not be the only option shoved down our throats).

My friends and I had outgrown "Monty Hall" games by the time we were 15. I missed out on Asheron's Call (which from everything I've heard I would have loved) but I'm glad that finally people are starting to make MMOs that don't follow that stupid gear grind model. I hope that GW3 (or the next big innovative MMO) dumps Levels altogether.

Relating this closer to the OP - I expect to be playing GW2 for a long, long time because I finally have a game where I'm not limited to 1-2 zones or a handful of dungeons and raids as the only content at all interesting to me at 80. I can pick any zone in GW2 and go and "lose myself" in my favorite adventures in the area. My 71 Warrior is currently fighting Centaurs in Gendarren Fields and might head over to Hirathi Highlands to continue the battle. After that I might feel like battling the Sons of Svanir in the Shiverpeaks or the Flame Legion in the ruins of Ascalon. Or of course I can battle the Branded in Orr.

I and others enjoy the gameplay, the DEs, the "themes and stories" of the zones. I enjoy exploring different builds and weapons on my Warrior and love how much the gameplay experience changes when I go from Warhorn/Shout-focused Support to Greatsword to Mace and Shield. But most of all I love that I control where I play and how I play. I'm not forced to play Mace and Shield so my friends have a Tank, or forced to switch that to Warhorn/Shout so we have a healer, or forced to wait for 24 other people to log on just so I can go to Orr.

For people who crave gear and levels, there are many games for them to choose from. I hope someday that I and people like me can have the same kind of variety and selection to choose from, but at least I finally have ONE game that doesn't follow that model.

i wil never get why ppl call GW2 skill based. its not. its same as WoW skill and GEAR based...unlike GW1 where gear didnt matter much. Sure WoW is the definition of a Gear based game but its is the same at its core.

u need both to have success in pvp..if u have no clue what you are doing then gear wont save u andf u will have ur shit slapped. only because there is DODGE its not instantly skill only based game. Its maybe abit easier when u have only a few buttons to press instead of 4 skillbars full of skills n spells.

pure FPS games (not the f2p ones where u can buy armor and shit)with just perks and weapons this is pure skill based..if u cant aim well or have no map knowledge and dont know what todo in every possible situation u will die to ppl who are simply better than you.

Originally posted by Nitre

i wil never get why ppl call GW2 skill based. its not. its same as WoW skill and GEAR based...unlike GW1 where gear didnt matter much. Sure WoW is the definition of a Gear based game but its is the same at its core.

u need both to have success in pvp..if u have no clue what you are doing then gear wont save u andf u will have ur shit slapped. only because there is DODGE its not instantly skill only based game. Its maybe abit easier when u have only a few buttons to press instead of 4 skillbars full of skills n spells.

pure FPS games (not the f2p ones where u can buy armor and shit)with just perks and weapons this is pure skill based..if u cant aim well or have no map knowledge and dont know what todo in every possible situation u will die to ppl who are simply better than you.

Have you played the game?

In Structured PvP everyone has full access to Gear, Skills, and Traits for free, with the ability to respec/re-gear in the Mists whenever you want.

Knowledge of your Build and Map is just as important in GW2 as in any FPS.

That's better than GW1 where you had to buy a PvP Pack or spend a lot of time in PvE unlocking stuff.

It's fine if you don't like it, but your argument is kinda completely baseless.

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Originally posted by Nitre
i wil never get why ppl call GW2 skill based. its not. its same as WoW skill and GEAR based...unlike GW1 where gear didnt matter much. Sure WoW is the definition of a Gear based game but its is the same at its core.

 

u need both to have success in pvp..if u have no clue what you are doing then gear wont save u andf u will have ur shit slapped. only because there is DODGE its not instantly skill only based game. Its maybe abit easier when u have only a few buttons to press instead of 4 skillbars full of skills n spells.

 

pure FPS games (not the f2p ones where u can buy armor and shit)with just perks and weapons this is pure skill based..if u cant aim well or have no map knowledge and dont know what todo in every possible situation u will die to ppl who are simply better than you.

 

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As the above post said, it's about knowledge of your character and skills/traits. And it's certainly not gear based.

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

At no point has GW2 grabbed me and made me say "I can't wait until I get home from work to log in!".  Instead I constantly force myself to log in and do some stuff and when I've logged out I feel like I wasted time as I didn't have any fun moments, just random accomplishments.

If you haven't quit by now, you have a serious problem - and I doubt it's only related to GW2.

I'm still waiting for any rational and valid reason from any of the "ex-DAoC" fans here about why DAoC's RvR was so much better than GW2. I think I'm going to wait a long time... specially since they can't fool me considering I've played DAoC too.

It's all a matter of opinion, so quit with the "trying to fool me" business.

This is why I liked DAoC better:

1. An organized smaller force could take out a zerg.

2. Things were slower paced, so you could see what was going on.

3. It wasn't an aoe ranged fest, since every class in DAoC didn't have ranged aoe skills.

4. DAoC had healers, giving people who likes to play melee a chance to actually do something before getting focused down and dead, and even if they did die, they could be rezzed from afar.

5. Players in DAoC knew what they were doing in RvR, since the games PvE made you work together as a group to level up. You knew your class and everyone elses class very well and how they complimented each other and how to work together by the time you seriously got into RvR. So when you got into RvR, you didn't need a ton of communication on who to target first and etc.

6. Because of point 5, voice communication wasn't really needed. Everything could be done through chat

7. There was more places to teleport to, so it didn't take ages to reach the main force or any force that was attacking a particularly important objective.

8. Having the Holy Trinity actually made it easier to form balanced groups. 

9. No ques or population limits.

10. If one realm was dominating, the two lesser realms would band together to take out the larger force. I haven't seen any cross-realm teamwork in GW2.

With that said, things I like more about GW2's WvWvW"

1. Large map, and everything looks good.

2. Lot's of different types of objectives.

3. The ability to contribute at lvl 1.

4. The added layer of strategy through the need and use of supply and the limitations on how much you can carry.

5. The ability for the leader to mark themselves as a Commander.

6. Decent PvE objectives, although no one seems to do them anymore.

Originally posted by nate1980

It's all a matter of opinion, so quit with the "trying to fool me" business.

This is why I liked DAoC better:

1. An organized smaller force could take out a zerg.

Also true in GW2. It is true whether you are considering the proper and strategic use of Siege Weapons OR organized units properly supporting each other with covering fire, bubbles, flanking, etc.

2. Things were slower paced, so you could see what was going on.

3. It wasn't an aoe ranged fest, since every class in DAoC didn't have ranged aoe skills.

4. DAoC had healers, giving people who likes to play melee a chance to actually do something before getting focused down and dead, and even if they did die, they could be rezzed from afar.

If you think that Melee isn't extremely effective in WvW you haven't been playing with good groups. You need to use Bubbles and cover to close properly (this also includes flanking and ambushes) but melee does a lot more damage than ranged allowing an organized and effective group to reign havoc and destruction once you close to within a Zerg's ranks.

5. Players in DAoC knew what they were doing in RvR, since the games PvE made you work together as a group to level up. You knew your class and everyone elses class very well and how they complimented each other and how to work together by the time you seriously got into RvR. So when you got into RvR, you didn't need a ton of communication on who to target first and etc.

Yeah, I really wonder how accurate this statement was 1 month into DAoC's existence? I'm sure in time it was somewhat accurate but as I've already see improved tactics and coordination in GW2 it will be true there as well.

6. Because of point 5, voice communication wasn't really needed. Everything could be done through chat

I find it hard to believe that even in DAoC people using Vent weren't more effective in RvR that groups that didn't.

7. There was more places to teleport to, so it didn't take ages to reach the main force or any force that was attacking a particularly important objective.

You do know that Waypoints are a Keep Upgrade right? That now that there are 1 Week Matches people are actually building them allowing the more knowledgeable and coordinated Servers to have the mobility you are talking about.

8. Having the Holy Trinity actually made it easier to form balanced groups. 

This one makes no sense. If your groups were random it couldn't be easy to form "balanced groups" as you had to deal with whoever showed up. If you are talking about organized teams and groups then it is much easier to do that in GW2 with the flexibility people have with Traits and Builds.

9. No ques or population limits.

10. If one realm was dominating, the two lesser realms would band together to take out the larger force. I haven't seen any cross-realm teamwork in GW2.

Once again I wonder how accurate this one was 1 month into DAoC's existence? As WvW matches are extended to 2 weeks in duration I fully expect to see more of this especially amongst the more dedicated and competitive Servers.

With that said, things I like more about GW2's WvWvW"

1. Large map, and everything looks good.

2. Lot's of different types of objectives.

3. The ability to contribute at lvl 1.

4. The added layer of strategy through the need and use of supply and the limitations on how much you can carry.

5. The ability for the leader to mark themselves as a Commander.

6. Decent PvE objectives, although no one seems to do them anymore.

As you said, some of your points are purely preference, but not all your statements matched my experiences in GW2.

Originally posted by Stx11

Originally posted by grimal

DnD (1975) precedes Traveller and by all accounts has set the standard for table-top roleplaying games.  The system's core design was based on leveling your characters through experience and attaining better gear and equipment through modules and adventures.

Even the earliest CRPGS (Bard's Tale, etc) followed these core mechanics.  So contrary to what you may state, popular RPGs have always been about level and gear progression (these were not invented by WoW).

By removing these, you are in essence, taking away one of the original concepts of RPGs. 

Now, I am not saying this is not moving in a different direction; it is.  But you can't simply deny that these elements have not been part of the core gameplay.

Edit: playing for fun is a subjective statement.  What may be fun for one, is not for another.  Personally, I played RPGs to roleplay.  Yet, MMORPGS seem to have very little of that these days.  So what is left for me is the character progression.  You take away that and it's really a barren world with no sense of purpose.  Sure, I can run around and explore, but I can also do that in my RL.  I don't play these games just to do the things I can in my ordinary life;  I do them to do things I can't do in it.  I speak for myself, but without the progression, I have no sense of purpose in the world and therefore little drive to inhibit it.

I'm well aware of the history of roleplaying games. My point was 2 years after D&D came out we had our first level-less, non-progression-focused RPG so the idea that what GW2 is doing by de-emphasizing gear is only "new" in the context of a themepark, triple-A MMO. EVE has no levels to speak of, is nowhere near as gear-centric as EQ/WoW Clones, and offers a "progression" system radically different from those games as well. Yet many on this site consider it one of the best MMOs ever made.

Just because EverQuest was based on DIKU-mud and WoW picked up that model as well does not in ANY way mean that "level and gear progression" are a core part of RPGs, nor do they need to be a core part of MMORPGs. They are currently a standard element but they certainly don't need to be (and many would argue (and have) that removing artifical "levels" and "gear grind" will be overall much better for the genre going forward).

In my original response I already said what is fun and enjoyable is subjective. Where I am disagreeing with you is specifically on this idea that "levels and gear" are core elements and that a game isn't an RPG without them. You may not like GW2's implementation. You may prefer levels. All fine. Just be aware that there are a lot of gamers out there who want that model "to die a fiery death" (or at the very least to not be the only option shoved down our throats).

My friends and I had outgrown "Monty Hall" games by the time we were 15. I missed out on Asheron's Call (which from everything I've heard I would have loved) but I'm glad that finally people are starting to make MMOs that don't follow that stupid gear grind model. I hope that GW3 (or the next big innovative MMO) dumps Levels altogether.

Relating this closer to the OP - I expect to be playing GW2 for a long, long time because I finally have a game where I'm not limited to 1-2 zones or a handful of dungeons and raids as the only content at all interesting to me at 80. I can pick any zone in GW2 and go and "lose myself" in my favorite adventures in the area. My 71 Warrior is currently fighting Centaurs in Gendarren Fields and might head over to Hirathi Highlands to continue the battle. After that I might feel like battling the Sons of Svanir in the Shiverpeaks or the Flame Legion in the ruins of Ascalon. Or of course I can battle the Branded in Orr.

I and others enjoy the gameplay, the DEs, the "themes and stories" of the zones. I enjoy exploring different builds and weapons on my Warrior and love how much the gameplay experience changes when I go from Warhorn/Shout-focused Support to Greatsword to Mace and Shield. But most of all I love that I control where I play and how I play. I'm not forced to play Mace and Shield so my friends have a Tank, or forced to switch that to Warhorn/Shout so we have a healer, or forced to wait for 24 other people to log on just so I can go to Orr.

For people who crave gear and levels, there are many games for them to choose from. I hope someday that I and people like me can have the same kind of variety and selection to choose from, but at least I finally have ONE game that doesn't follow that model.

In GW1 gear did matter until you got max level. I mean why else would people buy a run to get lvl 80 gear than progress through.

already a month *sigh* times goes by so fast in this game :p especially when u go to WvW maps. i think im too addicted to this game xD

Originally posted by Josher

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Josher

Originally posted by TeknoBug

 

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Originally posted by Josher

No day/night cycle.  LAAAAME.  Not much weather at all either.  Each zone is what it is, but it kills the effect of living in a world.  Reminds you it's all just a game.

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I KNOW you aren't playing the game, there is weather (well mostly rain) and there is day/night cycle.

 

Which zone can you sit there and watch it go from morning to afternoon to night?  I haven't seen it yet in any of the Charr zones or cities.   A Zone has a look and it never changes.  If it does it's so subtle it pointless.

take a look at this shows some of it

http://vimeo.com/44167145

If I have to look it up it's not done well.  Sorry.  It should very obvious when playing for 2 hrs that it nighttime or daytime.  I never hadissue in other MMOs, so if it's not very noticeable here, it's not done well.

 Sorry, but from "NO day/night cycle. LAAAAME." to "It's not well done", you've just been proven to be full of it. Be a man about it. It's called being proven wrong, and that's what you were WRONG!

Funny is that I still like the game, I used to be a bunny jumper, play this play that but GW2 is still a good game I still having fun.

I'm kinda stunned really I still having as much fun now as I had back in 25 aug.

Sure there is bugs here and there but if I look at the whole picture..I'm having a blast.

Yes I know some people dont't like and that's nothing wrong in anyway we all like different things it's just nature really, so I hope you who haven't found your game, keep searching you will find it.

I have found mine.

Yes I have played games before WoW

Yes I started my gaming career with UO

And yes I was hooked on EVE back in May 2003

So no this is not my first MMO