Originally posted by Nadia

Originally posted by tabindex

Longevity in MMO stems from two things:  social bonds and character investment.  While GW2 is strong in a few traits, it is lacking greatly in these two things.

Social bonds form when not only is grouping required, but reputation matters (i.e. not just grouping with any warm body, but actually knowing the people you're grouping with and knowing they aren't terrible in either attitude or at computer games).

Character investment is formed, in part, over time.  No feeling of investment in character when you've hit level cap and have top gear in less than 2 weeks.

 

you and the Op would have us believe that GW1 players had no character investment and no social bonds

why would they?  

I don't understand the no social bonds part, there is a social bond, I play with rl friends. Part of mmo gaming IMO.

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

 

^ it's what first drew me to GW1 and why i like GW2 so much.. yes there is a grind for certain gear but has always been an optional grind.. you grind it out to look badass not to roflstomp lowbies left and right. I prefer this sort of grind way more than a grind like wow or rift as where if i don't do it for a long period of time and come back I'm now so far behind I'm next to useless against(pvp) or with(raids) people who have been grinding for months/years.. for me I can come back to GW2 anytime and enjoy the game and not worry about people stomping all over me or not wanting me in a group just because i haven't been grinding out gear for the past year..

I like this as well in GW2. I will be able to max out and come back for small sessions whenever I wish and not be gimped.

But even in WOW the gear grind was optional. If you PVP'd you had gear to work towards (I did not) if you Raided you had gear to work towards (I did but kinds sucked at it) and if you were questing only you had gear that you worked towards (via quests- I hated questing....)

Its really no different as far as being optional.

The difference is in GW2 I really do not have anything to "work for"- Which is fine for the game but again (speaking of longevity) its not sustaining.

so i could jump into wow right now with entry pvp gear and compete against people in full gladiator>? Or be usefull in the hardest raids with not a single piece of raid gear?

Originally posted by Jonoku

Originally posted by Enigmatus

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

I think people are missing the general point.

You will not run out of things to do. You will run out of reasons to do them.

How would one make a reason to do something?

fun is reasons? should be singular...reason....that is reason enough to do them IMO.

Do you honestly, truthfully think that doing the same or slightly different DE's over and over again will remain "fun"?

I would love for it to happen, but I just can't buy into the dream that repeating the same content over and over will keep people happy in the long term. At some point people will ask themselves "Why am I doing this again?" and finally just stop.

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

Originally posted by Marcus-

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by Jonoku

Originally posted by Enigmatus

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

I think people are missing the general point.

You will not run out of things to do. You will run out of reasons to do them.

How would one make a reason to do something?

fun is reasons? should be singular...reason....that is reason enough to do them IMO.

So, you guys (You in general, not specific) biotch about the WoW "carrot on a stick" because it's too grindy, People are biottching because MoP now has what appears to be more dailys associated with a rep grind. For the past year or so, everyone is saying that GW2 gets rid of the grind it's all about "fun". Someone post a huge list of things to do at 80 that is nothing BUT grind but that's ok because this grind is in GW2 and the reason to do this grind is for "fun"? How is that list all aobut  fun? Or should I say "not a grind"

Wanna run this by me again? I seem to be missing something here.

For me, its because theres no part of that list i have to do.

 

I don't consider WvWvW a grind, thats fun.. some may not like it... don;t so it.

In WoW (as an example), if they want me to go collect 10k bear asses so i can get exalted with the crazy donkies faction to get enough tokens to get my next sword of uberness, so that i can progress my character, well guess what? I have to get get 10k bear asses.

Maybe some think collecting bear asses is fun, more power to them.

 

If however, you consider every aspect of an MMO a grind, and no part of it is fun, why play, why grind all those tokens?  Just to say you got a sword of uberness, so you can progress to the sword of extra uberness?

 

I see what you are saying but RPGs have always been about progression- You work for that sword of uburness so you can kill stronger things and attain better swords of uburness. Without progression you have an action game where everyone is the same. UT2K is as much an RPG at this point (and it IS online)-

WOW quests (and quests in general) suck. They are copy/pastse of kill 10 Woozles and collect 5 Gizmos rinse/repeat. This is why many (myself included) like dynamic sandbox worlds to play in-

But absent of sandbox qualities, an RPG still needs progression or it osnt really an RPG. And Endgame is important for longevity absent of sandbox activities.

 

In Neverwinter Nights, i made a Cleric/Magic user ( a CLAM as it were), it was the most popular PvP class in the game, some may say only actually. We all carried a shield +3, a Mace +3 (etc) and we went at it, that was the top of line stuff and it was easy enough to get.

In UO, we all wore crafted gear ( for the most part), some took out their Vorpal Sword, most didn't for fear of losing it, but generally it was the same stuffs.

Those were MMORPGs. It hasn't always been about that kind of progression

Originally posted by Jonoku

Originally posted by Nadia

Originally posted by tabindex

Longevity in MMO stems from two things:  social bonds and character investment.  While GW2 is strong in a few traits, it is lacking greatly in these two things.

Social bonds form when not only is grouping required, but reputation matters (i.e. not just grouping with any warm body, but actually knowing the people you're grouping with and knowing they aren't terrible in either attitude or at computer games).

Character investment is formed, in part, over time.  No feeling of investment in character when you've hit level cap and have top gear in less than 2 weeks.

 

you and the Op would have us believe that GW1 players had no character investment and no social bonds

why would they?  

I don't understand the no social bonds part, there is a social bond, I play with rl friends. Part of mmo gaming IMO.

Social meaning interdependance.

You dont rely on those people- You dont need those people. Its just another chat (essentially)

No different from going on Skyrim Skype Channel and playing Skyrim at the same time. Yes its "social" but in the context of the game it really is almost pointless.

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

I think people are missing the general point.

You will not run out of things to do. You will run out of reasons to do them.

i agree with this

but this is true of every new mmo launch - takes time to build content

Originally posted by Marcus-

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

Originally posted by Marcus-

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by Jonoku

Originally posted by Enigmatus

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

I think people are missing the general point.

You will not run out of things to do. You will run out of reasons to do them.

How would one make a reason to do something?

fun is reasons? should be singular...reason....that is reason enough to do them IMO.

So, you guys (You in general, not specific) biotch about the WoW "carrot on a stick" because it's too grindy, People are biottching because MoP now has what appears to be more dailys associated with a rep grind. For the past year or so, everyone is saying that GW2 gets rid of the grind it's all about "fun". Someone post a huge list of things to do at 80 that is nothing BUT grind but that's ok because this grind is in GW2 and the reason to do this grind is for "fun"? How is that list all aobut  fun? Or should I say "not a grind"

Wanna run this by me again? I seem to be missing something here.

For me, its because theres no part of that list i have to do.

 

I don't consider WvWvW a grind, thats fun.. some may not like it... don;t so it.

In WoW (as an example), if they want me to go collect 10k bear asses so i can get exalted with the crazy donkies faction to get enough tokens to get my next sword of uberness, so that i can progress my character, well guess what? I have to get get 10k bear asses.

Maybe some think collecting bear asses is fun, more power to them.

 

If however, you consider every aspect of an MMO a grind, and no part of it is fun, why play, why grind all those tokens?  Just to say you got a sword of uberness, so you can progress to the sword of extra uberness?

 

I see what you are saying but RPGs have always been about progression- You work for that sword of uburness so you can kill stronger things and attain better swords of uburness. Without progression you have an action game where everyone is the same. UT2K is as much an RPG at this point (and it IS online)-

WOW quests (and quests in general) suck. They are copy/pastse of kill 10 Woozles and collect 5 Gizmos rinse/repeat. This is why many (myself included) like dynamic sandbox worlds to play in-

But absent of sandbox qualities, an RPG still needs progression or it osnt really an RPG. And Endgame is important for longevity absent of sandbox activities.

 

In Neverwinter Night, i made a Cleric/Magic user ( a CLAM as it were), it was the most popular PvP class in the game. We all carried a shield +3, a Mace +3 (etc) and we went at it, that was the top of line stuff.

In UO, we all wore crafted gear ( for the most part), some took out their Vorpal Sword, most didn't for fear of losing it, but generally it was the same stuffs.

 

Those were MMORPGs. It hasn't always been about that kind of progression

LOL-  I hear you- UO was a sandbox (read my whole post) and NWN was based off D and D which was about progression. I know what you mean about NWN though (great game) but those were small servers with (usually) real DM teams who actually made the world change (hence it had a "sandbox" flow only was DM controled)

Originally posted by TheIronLegion
Ah I see the major issue here. Let me fix this for you. "Why GW2 Lacks Longevity [for me]". There we go!

Heaven forbid that someone doesn't realize that everyone doesn't think exactly as they do... What you have your own mind and experiences? Blasphemy.

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

Originally posted by Jonoku

I don't understand the no social bonds part, there is a social bond, I play with rl friends. Part of mmo gaming IMO.

Social meaning interdependance.

You dont rely on those people- You dont need those people. Its just another chat (essentially)

No different from going on Skyrim Skype Channel and playing Skyrim at the same time. Yes its "social" but in the context of the game it really is almost pointless.

 

I see, it does lack in that department, hopefully something comes up to save it.

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

 

^ it's what first drew me to GW1 and why i like GW2 so much.. yes there is a grind for certain gear but has always been an optional grind.. you grind it out to look badass not to roflstomp lowbies left and right. I prefer this sort of grind way more than a grind like wow or rift as where if i don't do it for a long period of time and come back I'm now so far behind I'm next to useless against(pvp) or with(raids) people who have been grinding for months/years.. for me I can come back to GW2 anytime and enjoy the game and not worry about people stomping all over me or not wanting me in a group just because i haven't been grinding out gear for the past year..

I like this as well in GW2. I will be able to max out and come back for small sessions whenever I wish and not be gimped.

But even in WOW the gear grind was optional. If you PVP'd you had gear to work towards (I did not) if you Raided you had gear to work towards (I did but kinds sucked at it) and if you were questing only you had gear that you worked towards (via quests- I hated questing....)

Its really no different as far as being optional.

The difference is in GW2 I really do not have anything to "work for"- Which is fine for the game but again (speaking of longevity) its not sustaining.

so i could jump into wow right now with entry pvp gear and compete against people in full gladiator>? Or be usefull in the hardest raids with not a single piece of raid gear?

Not any more than you could jump into GW2 and be competitive in an explorable dungeon or WvWvW without exotics. The only thing that truly evens out PVP is SPVP, but so does an FPS / RTS.

Originally posted by Psychow

Originally posted by Jonoku

fun is reasons? should be singular...reason....that is reason enough to do them IMO.

 

Do you honestly, truthfully think that doing the same or slightly different DE's over and over again will remain "fun"?

 

I would love for it to happen, but I just can't buy into the dream that repeating the same content over and over will keep people happy in the long term. At some point people will ask themselves "Why am I doing this again?" and finally just stop.

To each their own........maybe I should've been more specific, I can do WvW all day without getting bored especially when I'm playing with rl friends or guildmates. Just remember like some other guy said that content will never run out, changes will never run out, I'm here for the looooooooooooooong run as long as there is no SWG2.0 or GW3.

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

Originally posted by Marcus-

 

 

In Neverwinter Night, i made a Cleric/Magic user ( a CLAM as it were), it was the most popular PvP class in the game. We all carried a shield +3, a Mace +3 (etc) and we went at it, that was the top of line stuff.

In UO, we all wore crafted gear ( for the most part), some took out their Vorpal Sword, most didn't for fear of losing it, but generally it was the same stuffs.

 

Those were MMORPGs. It hasn't always been about that kind of progression

LOL-  I hear you- UO was a sandbox (read my whole post) and NVN was based off D and D which was about progression. I know what you mean about NVN though (great game) but those were small servers with (usually) real DM teams who actually made the world change (hence it had a "sandbox" flow only was DM controled)

Not that NwN 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwinter_Nights_(AOL_game)

that link is funny, you have to click the "did you mean- " link inside it..

dunno why

Originally posted by Jimmydean

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

 

^ it's what first drew me to GW1 and why i like GW2 so much.. yes there is a grind for certain gear but has always been an optional grind.. you grind it out to look badass not to roflstomp lowbies left and right. I prefer this sort of grind way more than a grind like wow or rift as where if i don't do it for a long period of time and come back I'm now so far behind I'm next to useless against(pvp) or with(raids) people who have been grinding for months/years.. for me I can come back to GW2 anytime and enjoy the game and not worry about people stomping all over me or not wanting me in a group just because i haven't been grinding out gear for the past year..

I like this as well in GW2. I will be able to max out and come back for small sessions whenever I wish and not be gimped.

But even in WOW the gear grind was optional. If you PVP'd you had gear to work towards (I did not) if you Raided you had gear to work towards (I did but kinds sucked at it) and if you were questing only you had gear that you worked towards (via quests- I hated questing....)

Its really no different as far as being optional.

The difference is in GW2 I really do not have anything to "work for"- Which is fine for the game but again (speaking of longevity) its not sustaining.

so i could jump into wow right now with entry pvp gear and compete against people in full gladiator>? Or be usefull in the hardest raids with not a single piece of raid gear?

Not any more than you could jump into GW2 and be competitive in an explorable dungeon or WvWvW without exotics. The only thing that truly evens out PVP is SPVP, but so does an FPS / RTS.

how long does it take to get full set of exotics? no time at all at 80.. how long does it take to get gladiator gear or full raid set? I also am doing just fine in WvW at level 31

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

Originally posted by Jonoku

Originally posted by Nadia

Originally posted by tabindex

Longevity in MMO stems from two things:  social bonds and character investment.  While GW2 is strong in a few traits, it is lacking greatly in these two things.

Social bonds form when not only is grouping required, but reputation matters (i.e. not just grouping with any warm body, but actually knowing the people you're grouping with and knowing they aren't terrible in either attitude or at computer games).

Character investment is formed, in part, over time.  No feeling of investment in character when you've hit level cap and have top gear in less than 2 weeks.

 

you and the Op would have us believe that GW1 players had no character investment and no social bonds

why would they?  

I don't understand the no social bonds part, there is a social bond, I play with rl friends. Part of mmo gaming IMO.

Social meaning interdependance.

You dont rely on those people- You dont need those people. Its just another chat (essentially)

No different from going on Skyrim Skype Channel and playing Skyrim at the same time. Yes its "social" but in the context of the game it really is almost pointless.

 

Generally pointless things with people you don't need is what you do with friends - like going to the cinema.

Interdependance is what I get at work.

Originally posted by Marcus-

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

Originally posted by Marcus-

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

Originally posted by Marcus-

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by Jonoku

Originally posted by Enigmatus

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

I think people are missing the general point.

You will not run out of things to do. You will run out of reasons to do them.

How would one make a reason to do something?

fun is reasons? should be singular...reason....that is reason enough to do them IMO.

So, you guys (You in general, not specific) biotch about the WoW "carrot on a stick" because it's too grindy, People are biottching because MoP now has what appears to be more dailys associated with a rep grind. For the past year or so, everyone is saying that GW2 gets rid of the grind it's all about "fun". Someone post a huge list of things to do at 80 that is nothing BUT grind but that's ok because this grind is in GW2 and the reason to do this grind is for "fun"? How is that list all aobut  fun? Or should I say "not a grind"

Wanna run this by me again? I seem to be missing something here.

For me, its because theres no part of that list i have to do.

 

I don't consider WvWvW a grind, thats fun.. some may not like it... don;t so it.

In WoW (as an example), if they want me to go collect 10k bear asses so i can get exalted with the crazy donkies faction to get enough tokens to get my next sword of uberness, so that i can progress my character, well guess what? I have to get get 10k bear asses.

Maybe some think collecting bear asses is fun, more power to them.

 

If however, you consider every aspect of an MMO a grind, and no part of it is fun, why play, why grind all those tokens?  Just to say you got a sword of uberness, so you can progress to the sword of extra uberness?

 

I see what you are saying but RPGs have always been about progression- You work for that sword of uburness so you can kill stronger things and attain better swords of uburness. Without progression you have an action game where everyone is the same. UT2K is as much an RPG at this point (and it IS online)-

WOW quests (and quests in general) suck. They are copy/pastse of kill 10 Woozles and collect 5 Gizmos rinse/repeat. This is why many (myself included) like dynamic sandbox worlds to play in-

But absent of sandbox qualities, an RPG still needs progression or it osnt really an RPG. And Endgame is important for longevity absent of sandbox activities.

 

In Neverwinter Night, i made a Cleric/Magic user ( a CLAM as it were), it was the most popular PvP class in the game. We all carried a shield +3, a Mace +3 (etc) and we went at it, that was the top of line stuff.

In UO, we all wore crafted gear ( for the most part), some took out their Vorpal Sword, most didn't for fear of losing it, but generally it was the same stuffs.

 

Those were MMORPGs. It hasn't always been about that kind of progression

LOL-  I hear you- UO was a sandbox (read my whole post) and NVN was based off D and D which was about progression. I know what you mean about NVN though (great game) but those were small servers with (usually) real DM teams who actually made the world change (hence it had a "sandbox" flow only was DM controled)

Not that NwN 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwinter_Nights_(AOL_game)

 

OH MAN-

I remember that. My Mom and Dad would have killed me though (like $5.00 a min or something lol) I freaking begged them to let me play but alas it was not to be. =/

Nope UO was my first because my parents would never in a million years pay for a "game subscription" lol- I needed my own money. =D

Originally posted by TheIronLegion
Ah I see the major issue here. Let me fix this for you. "Why GW2 Lacks Longevity [for me]". There we go!

No, he's talking about why he thinks the average MMO player will lose interest. I happen to agree with him.

If we look at sandboxes, we have the focus on building an environment that everyone can play in. The focus is on the world itself, and buidling that which goes into establishing it.

Themepark MMOs coma along and say, No, you aren't building this world. You get to play in it, but you can build your characters.

GW2 come along and says, NO, you can't build your world here, we already have. You cannot invest in your character, you can only build it to a certan point and then not beyond anyone else. Unless you want to look great being average. 

LOL, GW2 is like virtual communism.

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

 

^ it's what first drew me to GW1 and why i like GW2 so much.. yes there is a grind for certain gear but has always been an optional grind.. you grind it out to look badass not to roflstomp lowbies left and right. I prefer this sort of grind way more than a grind like wow or rift as where if i don't do it for a long period of time and come back I'm now so far behind I'm next to useless against(pvp) or with(raids) people who have been grinding for months/years.. for me I can come back to GW2 anytime and enjoy the game and not worry about people stomping all over me or not wanting me in a group just because i haven't been grinding out gear for the past year..

I like this as well in GW2. I will be able to max out and come back for small sessions whenever I wish and not be gimped.

But even in WOW the gear grind was optional. If you PVP'd you had gear to work towards (I did not) if you Raided you had gear to work towards (I did but kinds sucked at it) and if you were questing only you had gear that you worked towards (via quests- I hated questing....)

Its really no different as far as being optional.

The difference is in GW2 I really do not have anything to "work for"- Which is fine for the game but again (speaking of longevity) its not sustaining.

so i could jump into wow right now with entry pvp gear and compete against people in full gladiator>? Or be usefull in the hardest raids with not a single piece of raid gear?

Really? I hear people complaining that epics take forever to get... Isn't that something to work for since it's better stats than the yellow or blue your carrying around?

Is it easy or does it take a long time to get epics? I feel like you people can't make up your mind.

Oh... I'm sorry, in GW2 you don't need the epics because the sPvP gives you gear and the dungeons can be done in your birthday suit right? But then again, if you want that advantage in WvW or in dungeons so you aren't dying every 2 seconds and can down bosses in less than an hour, then you might want that gear. But you don't need to work for that... GW2 basically hands it out on silver platters for you the second you hit 80 right?

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

I will watch the Video later if I have time- But honestly I do not need to...Pretty sure I know whats said.

I agree too- It does lack longevity. Its not a full fledged MMORPG (more like an ARPG with Massive Online components). Its very casual...

But, its fun. And it doesnt need Longevity like a subscription title,

GW2 has done some very creative marketing and essentially sold a F2P cash shop game for $50- $60. Then they will get a small Xpac out every year or so for another $40- $50. Most have at least purchased Bag space from the CS... They are making money hand over fist and do not NEED high player retention (just enough to keep the servers active) and each Xpac will bring an influx of former players back to the game for a short time.

This was a genius marketing Blitz. And the game is fun.

No. It doesnt have "staying power" and if it were based on a "sub" I would feel pretty ripped off and (obviously) not re sub...But they already sold me a box and some Bag Space and I play a few hours a week (and plan to play at a casual rate) and it makes a nice second Online game to play while taking a break from your main Game.

I am happy.

Spot On!

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Jimmydean

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

 

^ it's what first drew me to GW1 and why i like GW2 so much.. yes there is a grind for certain gear but has always been an optional grind.. you grind it out to look badass not to roflstomp lowbies left and right. I prefer this sort of grind way more than a grind like wow or rift as where if i don't do it for a long period of time and come back I'm now so far behind I'm next to useless against(pvp) or with(raids) people who have been grinding for months/years.. for me I can come back to GW2 anytime and enjoy the game and not worry about people stomping all over me or not wanting me in a group just because i haven't been grinding out gear for the past year..

I like this as well in GW2. I will be able to max out and come back for small sessions whenever I wish and not be gimped.

But even in WOW the gear grind was optional. If you PVP'd you had gear to work towards (I did not) if you Raided you had gear to work towards (I did but kinds sucked at it) and if you were questing only you had gear that you worked towards (via quests- I hated questing....)

Its really no different as far as being optional.

The difference is in GW2 I really do not have anything to "work for"- Which is fine for the game but again (speaking of longevity) its not sustaining.

so i could jump into wow right now with entry pvp gear and compete against people in full gladiator>? Or be usefull in the hardest raids with not a single piece of raid gear?

Not any more than you could jump into GW2 and be competitive in an explorable dungeon or WvWvW without exotics. The only thing that truly evens out PVP is SPVP, but so does an FPS / RTS.

how long does it take to get full set of exotics? no time at all at 80.. how long does it take to get gladiator gear or full raid set? I also am doing just fine in WvW at level 31

Really? Because I'm level 80, and getting full exotics is a hell of a grind. 42k karma per horribly statted piece, many G worth of mats for a horribly statted crafted set, or run countless explorable dungeons for the actual good exotics. I don't remember heroic dungeon gear / PVP gear being difficult / time consuming to get in WoW.