Originally posted by GeezerGamer

I think people are missing the general point.

You will not run out of things to do. You will run out of reasons to do them.

How would one make a reason to do something?

Originally posted by Enigmatus

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

I think people are missing the general point.

You will not run out of things to do. You will run out of reasons to do them.

How would one make a reason to do something?

fun is reasons? should be singular...reason....that is reason enough to do them IMO.

Originally posted by Zeus.CM

I appretiate your opinion.

I'll add why I think GW2 has enough content to make me busy for at least a year:

- 8 Challenging dungeons with 32 different experiences

- over 1000 dynamic events. Arenanet stated they will be secretly adding new events to all zones

- legendary weapons - they require a lot of effort and those who want to get prestige weapon skins with special effects has lots of work to do

- exploration - tons of secret jumping puzzles

- WvW - lots of fun, two week long matches, epic battles. This feature alone has tons of replayability.

- sPvP - very adicting, almost DotA/League of Legends addicting, I can see myself spending lots of time here.

- Non-linear story. To see all branches of one race story you need to create at least 20 characters of the same race. Multiply that by 5 races and you get tons of replayability

- By the end of this content new expansions will come, each adding 1 year worth of content

Alright I'll counter this with one statement.

Other games HAVE all this and it doesn't keep people's attention.

Yeah, the names change but other games have many of those options. Heck, maybe some people do this but a lot of your 'content' based argument would work in any game. Opinion based portions of it work the same for others in other games. I'll explore Hello Kitty Online all day long, same experience as GW2 no matter if its different in terms of the game and how it looks like.

Originally posted by Enigmatus

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

I think people are missing the general point.

You will not run out of things to do. You will run out of reasons to do them.

How would one make a reason to do something?

Attaching a reward or making skill viable.

In other words (to bring up the carrot on the a stick analogy someone put so well) GW2 is asking you to run the treadmill without even a carrot for a reward.

No reason to even "practice" become a great healer so that folks will request me to group with since everyone can do everything (no interdependance)- No reason to be a great crafter or play the "economic game" and corner the market.

Basically, just quest for the hell of it. Never really get "better", never "stand out", never be "unique" in any viable way. Just play the game to play the game- Thats all fine and good but does not produce longevity nor a reason to play.

Again, no sub means GW2 doesnt need longevity but we need to be honest here in discussing its merits and flaws. many are being sold a bill of goods (and buying this game) under false assumptions as to what they are really getting. This is NOT a full fledged MMO which was designed to play for years. This was a casual (but fun) game which was meant to give a good ride to the end and then slowly level off. Yes, there are things to do at 80 (for those who keep playing) but they are not really worthwhile (from what I can see at present) and they expect (and probably want) people to "go away" at that point- Until they have you buy another Xpac to continue the ride.

They made their money- This isnt about success or not- But about a game mechanic that truly discourages anyu endgame so they have less strai8n on servers and can "sell" any progression via Xpac only.

Originally posted by Jonoku

Originally posted by Enigmatus

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

I think people are missing the general point.

You will not run out of things to do. You will run out of reasons to do them.

How would one make a reason to do something?

fun is reasons? should be singular...reason....that is reason enough to do them IMO.

So, you guys (You in general, not specific) biotch about the WoW "carrot on a stick" because it's too grindy, People are biottching because MoP now has what appears to be more dailys associated with a rep grind. For the past year or so, everyone is saying that GW2 gets rid of the grind it's all about "fun". Someone post a huge list of things to do at 80 that is nothing BUT grind but that's ok because this grind is in GW2 and the reason to do this grind is for "fun"? How is that list all aobut  fun? Or should I say "not a grind"

Wanna run this by me again? I seem to be missing something here.

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by Jonoku

Originally posted by Enigmatus

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

I think people are missing the general point.

You will not run out of things to do. You will run out of reasons to do them.

How would one make a reason to do something?

fun is reasons? should be singular...reason....that is reason enough to do them IMO.

So, you guys (You in general, not specific) biotch about the WoW "carrot on a stick" because it's too grindy, People are biottching because MoP now has what appears to be more dailys associated with a rep grind. For the past year or so, everyone is saying that GW2 gets rid of the grind it's all about "fun". Someone post a huge list of things to do at 80 that is nothing BUT grind but that's ok because this grind is in GW2 and the reason to do this grind is for "fun"? How is that list all aobut  fun? Or should I say "not a grind"

Wanna run this by me again? I seem to be missing something here.

I don't understand here I haven't mentioned anything about grind. If people are so worried about the cosmetic grind in GW2, learn to not think about the grind and have fun with the game especially WvW, here's a protip not to insult anyone, be balanced getting on GW2 and not play all day erraday, you'll get burnt out fast. I don't even mind the grind idk what people are so upset about, people loved the grind in SWG pre-cu, everyone loved it. Treat a game like a game, you can be competitive if you want but don't treat it like a second job, I'm not saying to go casual either I'm saying to be balanced.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Waaagh waaagh no raids!

:p

^ Gets no soup!!

Originally posted by tabindex

Longevity in MMO stems from two things:  social bonds and character investment.  While GW2 is strong in a few traits, it is lacking greatly in these two things.

 

Social bonds form when not only is grouping required, but reputation matters (i.e. not just grouping with any warm body, but actually knowing the people you're grouping with and knowing they aren't terrible in either attitude or at computer games).

 

Character investment is formed, in part, over time.  No feeling of investment in character when you've hit level cap and have top gear in less than 2 weeks.

 

And it's fine though, because GW2 wasn't created for people who seek these two traits from games.

 

:(

Social bonds form when you are having fun together.

I've to do loads of stuff with fellow co-workers and that doesn't mean I form any social bonds with them. Raid guilds melting are a dime a dozen, dispite all the awesome group requirement and reputation.

Second, GW2 isn't only a MMORPG, it is a video game, and video games staying power is based on gameplay.

Yeah, GW2 isn't a way of life or an alternative world, it is a massive multiplayer online video game.

And video games can also be played for years,

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by Jonoku

Originally posted by Enigmatus

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

I think people are missing the general point.

You will not run out of things to do. You will run out of reasons to do them.

How would one make a reason to do something?

fun is reasons? should be singular...reason....that is reason enough to do them IMO.

So, you guys (You in general, not specific) biotch about the WoW "carrot on a stick" because it's too grindy, People are biottching because MoP now has what appears to be more dailys associated with a rep grind. For the past year or so, everyone is saying that GW2 gets rid of the grind it's all about "fun". Someone post a huge list of things to do at 80 that is nothing BUT grind but that's ok because this grind is in GW2 and the reason to do this grind is for "fun"? How is that list all aobut  fun? Or should I say "not a grind"

Wanna run this by me again? I seem to be missing something here.

For me, its because theres no part of that list i have to do.

I don't consider WvWvW a grind, thats fun.. some may not like it... don't do it, theres no need..

In WoW (as an example), if they want me to go collect 10k bear asses so i can get exalted with the crazy donkies faction to get enough tokens ao that i get my next sword of uberness, so that i can progress my character, well guess what? I have to go get 10k bear asses.

Maybe some think collecting bear asses is fun, more power to them. To me, thats a grind.

If however, you consider every aspect of an MMO a grind, and no part of it is fun, why play, why grind all those tokens?  Just to say you got a sword of uberness, so you can progress to the sword of extra uberness?

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

So, you guys (You in general, not specific) bitch about the WoW "carrot on a stick" because it's too grindy, People are bitching because MoP now has what appears to be more dailys associated with a rep grind. For the past year or so, everyone is saying that GW2 gets rid of the grind it's all about "fun". Someone post a huge list of things to do at 80 that is nothing BUT grind but that's ok because this grind is in GW2 and the reason to do this grind is for "fun"? How is that list all about  fun? Or should I say "not a grind"

Wanna run this by me again? I seem to be missing something here.

On a personal note, I generally expected grind in any game, including GW2.

I think the only reason why it doesn't bother me in GW2 as much as WoWs did is because:

1. WoW's sub fee. This is just me, but whenever I pay a sub for something, I feel compelled, even if I REALLY don't want to, to play to justify that money. This means I cannot be leisurely about my gameplay because every moment I spend not doing something to justify that payment feels like a waste. The drawback is that everything starts feeling like a grind because I keep trying to do stuff to justify the payment.
2. Once again, just me, but raiding felt like the only part of the game that was worth doing, because everything else seemed to be designed to funnel you towards raiding. Gathering and Crafting Professions? Might as well just buy your crap off the auction house, because only the raiding stuff is worth anything, and even then the BOE drops might be better in every aspect. Leveling? Levels 1 - whatever is the cap is just a giant tutorial, only max level counts apparently. PVP? It is it's own thing, which isn't a bad thing, but good luck using that gear in Raiding.

Originally posted by Marcus-

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

So, you guys (You in general, not specific) biotch about the WoW "carrot on a stick" because it's too grindy, People are biottching because MoP now has what appears to be more dailys associated with a rep grind. For the past year or so, everyone is saying that GW2 gets rid of the grind it's all about "fun". Someone post a huge list of things to do at 80 that is nothing BUT grind but that's ok because this grind is in GW2 and the reason to do this grind is for "fun"? How is that list all aobut  fun? Or should I say "not a grind"

Wanna run this by me again? I seem to be missing something here.

If however, you consider every aspect of an MMO a grind, and no part of it is fun, why play, why grind all those tokens?  Just to say you got a sword of uberness, so you can progress to the sword of extra uberness?

 

that's enough right there. I don't understand people sometimes. I agree.

I'm already incredibly bored by the game. I barely play 30 minutes a day, when I play. PVE got me going for a while but it gets repetitive fast. Lack of modes for organized pvp really bunches my short.

The game is good but meh. I guess I'm getting old.

Originally posted by Marcus-

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by Jonoku

Originally posted by Enigmatus

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

I think people are missing the general point.

You will not run out of things to do. You will run out of reasons to do them.

How would one make a reason to do something?

fun is reasons? should be singular...reason....that is reason enough to do them IMO.

So, you guys (You in general, not specific) biotch about the WoW "carrot on a stick" because it's too grindy, People are biottching because MoP now has what appears to be more dailys associated with a rep grind. For the past year or so, everyone is saying that GW2 gets rid of the grind it's all about "fun". Someone post a huge list of things to do at 80 that is nothing BUT grind but that's ok because this grind is in GW2 and the reason to do this grind is for "fun"? How is that list all aobut  fun? Or should I say "not a grind"

Wanna run this by me again? I seem to be missing something here.

For me, its because theres no part of that list i have to do.

 

I don't consider WvWvW a grind, thats fun.. some may not like it... don;t so it.

In WoW (as an example), if they want me to go collect 10k bear asses so i can get exalted with the crazy donkies faction to get enough tokens to get my next sword of uberness, so that i can progress my character, well guess what? I have to get get 10k bear asses.

Maybe some think collecting bear asses is fun, more power to them.

 

If however, you consider every aspect of an MMO a grind, and no part of it is fun, why play, why grind all those tokens?  Just to say you got a sword of uberness, so you can progress to the sword of extra uberness?

 

I see what you are saying but RPGs have always been about progression- You work for that sword of uburness so you can kill stronger things and attain better swords of uburness. Without progression you have an action game where everyone is the same. UT2K is as much an RPG at this point (and it IS online)-

WOW quests (and quests in general) suck. They are copy/pastse of kill 10 Woozles and collect 5 Gizmos rinse/repeat. This is why many (myself included) like dynamic sandbox worlds to play in-

But absent of sandbox qualities, an RPG still needs progression or it osnt really an RPG. And Endgame is important for longevity absent of sandbox activities.

Originally posted by Marcus-

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by Jonoku

Originally posted by Enigmatus

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

I think people are missing the general point.

You will not run out of things to do. You will run out of reasons to do them.

How would one make a reason to do something?

fun is reasons? should be singular...reason....that is reason enough to do them IMO.

So, you guys (You in general, not specific) biotch about the WoW "carrot on a stick" because it's too grindy, People are biottching because MoP now has what appears to be more dailys associated with a rep grind. For the past year or so, everyone is saying that GW2 gets rid of the grind it's all about "fun". Someone post a huge list of things to do at 80 that is nothing BUT grind but that's ok because this grind is in GW2 and the reason to do this grind is for "fun"? How is that list all aobut  fun? Or should I say "not a grind"

Wanna run this by me again? I seem to be missing something here.

For me, its because theres no part of that list i have to do.

 

I don't consider WvWvW a grind, thats fun.. some may not like it... don't do it, theres no need..

In WoW (as an example), if they want me to go collect 10k bear asses so i can get exalted with the crazy donkies faction to get enough tokens ao that i get my next sword of uberness, so that i can progress my character, well guess what? I have to go get 10k bear asses.

Maybe some think collecting bear asses is fun, more power to them.

 

If however, you consider every aspect of an MMO a grind, and no part of it is fun, why play, why grind all those tokens?  Just to say you got a sword of uberness, so you can progress to the sword of extra uberness?

 

^ it's what first drew me to GW1 and why i like GW2 so much.. yes there is a grind for certain gear but has always been an optional grind.. you grind it out to look badass not to roflstomp lowbies left and right. I prefer this sort of grind way more than a grind like wow or rift as where if i don't do it for a long period of time and come back I'm now so far behind I'm next to useless against(pvp) or with(raids) people who have been grinding for months/years.. for me I can come back to GW2 anytime and enjoy the game and not worry about people stomping all over me or not wanting me in a group just because i haven't been grinding out gear for the past year..

Originally posted by Enigmatus

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

So, you guys (You in general, not specific) bitch about the WoW "carrot on a stick" because it's too grindy, People are bitching because MoP now has what appears to be more dailys associated with a rep grind. For the past year or so, everyone is saying that GW2 gets rid of the grind it's all about "fun". Someone post a huge list of things to do at 80 that is nothing BUT grind but that's ok because this grind is in GW2 and the reason to do this grind is for "fun"? How is that list all about  fun? Or should I say "not a grind"

Wanna run this by me again? I seem to be missing something here.

On a personal note, I generally expected grind in any game, including GW2.

I think the only reason why it doesn't bother me in GW2 as much as WoWs did is because:

1. WoW's sub fee. This is just me, but whenever I pay a sub for something, I feel compelled, even if I REALLY don't want to, to play to justify that money. This means I cannot be leisurely about my gameplay because every moment I spend not doing something to justify that payment feels like a waste. The drawback is that everything starts feeling like a grind because I keep trying to do stuff to justify the payment.
2. Once again, just me, but raiding felt like the only part of the game that was worth doing, because everything else seemed to be designed to funnel you towards raiding. Gathering and Crafting Professions? Might as well just buy your crap off the auction house, because only the raiding stuff is worth anything, and even then the BOE drops might be better in every aspect. Leveling? Levels 1 - whatever is the cap is just a giant tutorial, only max level counts apparently. PVP? It is it's own thing, which isn't a bad thing, but good luck using that gear in Raiding.

Maybe it's just a mentality thing, but since I don't feel compelled to do something as a result of a sub fee, GW2 just seems to appeal to me better.

 

I hope this answers your question to some degree.

I can understand what you mean. When you are paying a sub you tend to see the grind as something you are paying for. That and WoW is all about raiding, with very little to do outside of it.

The thing that annoys me about GW2 players is they will attack someone who states anything negative about the game, spouting "We don't need grindy raids/faction rep/etc because grind sucks and isn't fun" only to suggest grindy activities in GW2 as a counter... And I think that's what Geezer is getting at too.

Originally posted by SuperXero89

I think that if you go into GW2 with that mindset, you will be happy.  For those reasons, I am happy, and  I do not regret my purchase.

I do take offense when people behave as if their ability to see longevity in the game is a sign of mental superiority.  I never shyed away from the idea that GW2 will have players enjoying the game for years because the original GW1 had longterm hardcore players.  As a mainstream title though, GW1 lost a lot of steam after the release of Eye of the North, and I am only referring to GW2's ability to retain and grow its current playerbase. 

We can refer to the Diablo style item grind as skinner box gameplay or carrot dangling all we want, but the fact of the matter is, that style of gameplay has proven very successful over the years.  GW2's future success or lack thereof will be a referendum on the viability of that style of play.  If GW2 can retain a million active players and continue to grow substantially over the years, perhaps it's time that MMO designers reevalutated their approach to designing content.  I sit clearly on the camp that says that the "skinner box" gameplay as it's called, has a relevant place in the MMO industry and in games as a whole.

You've got a point however your definition of "longevity", in reference to GW2, is somewhat flawed imo.

The way GW2 makes money, it doesn't need "longevity" in terms of long term playership, it instead need SURGES of purchaseship, ie. people swarming out to buy the base game or expansion every time it comes out, to succeed.

And in that regard I think GW2 has already "won the first round" so to speak, because they've already sold a swarm of boxes and there might still be trickles coming in.

Kind of like how you might think of how a blockbuster movie earns money vs how a TV series earns money. GW2 is more like Die Hard series where they make a decent of money each release, whereas WoW is like The Simpsons where they keeps in making money each episode while also makes money out of old episode reruns.

Originally posted by tabindex

Longevity in MMO stems from two things:  social bonds and character investment.  While GW2 is strong in a few traits, it is lacking greatly in these two things.

Social bonds form when not only is grouping required, but reputation matters (i.e. not just grouping with any warm body, but actually knowing the people you're grouping with and knowing they aren't terrible in either attitude or at computer games).

Character investment is formed, in part, over time.  No feeling of investment in character when you've hit level cap and have top gear in less than 2 weeks.

a good guild is the only social bond you need for any mmo

regarding being max level in 2 weeks,

a Gamespy reviewer wrote about leveling in both WOW and GW2 -- they were similar time periods

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/364560/Gamespy-review-based-on-80-levels-116-hrs-45-5.html

Sometime around 10:00 this morning I hit level 80. If you're curious about my total playtime and how it compares to other MMORPGs, my timer is sitting at 116 hours, which is about how long it took me to level a new character from start to finish in World of Warcraft last month.

beyond leveling,

its about gear grind or having fun in the game w different challenges

you would have us believe that GW1 players had no character investment and no social bonds

the GW1 level cap was 20 and top gear could be obtained in less than 24 hours

there were many GW1 players in good guilds with favored Characters

the same applies to GW2 too

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Marcus-

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by Jonoku

Originally posted by Enigmatus

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

I think people are missing the general point.

You will not run out of things to do. You will run out of reasons to do them.

How would one make a reason to do something?

fun is reasons? should be singular...reason....that is reason enough to do them IMO.

So, you guys (You in general, not specific) biotch about the WoW "carrot on a stick" because it's too grindy, People are biottching because MoP now has what appears to be more dailys associated with a rep grind. For the past year or so, everyone is saying that GW2 gets rid of the grind it's all about "fun". Someone post a huge list of things to do at 80 that is nothing BUT grind but that's ok because this grind is in GW2 and the reason to do this grind is for "fun"? How is that list all aobut  fun? Or should I say "not a grind"

Wanna run this by me again? I seem to be missing something here.

For me, its because theres no part of that list i have to do.

 

I don't consider WvWvW a grind, thats fun.. some may not like it... don't do it, theres no need..

In WoW (as an example), if they want me to go collect 10k bear asses so i can get exalted with the crazy donkies faction to get enough tokens ao that i get my next sword of uberness, so that i can progress my character, well guess what? I have to go get 10k bear asses.

Maybe some think collecting bear asses is fun, more power to them.

 

If however, you consider every aspect of an MMO a grind, and no part of it is fun, why play, why grind all those tokens?  Just to say you got a sword of uberness, so you can progress to the sword of extra uberness?

 

^ it's what first drew me to GW1 and why i like GW2 so much.. yes there is a grind for certain gear but has always been an optional grind.. you grind it out to look badass not to roflstomp lowbies left and right. I prefer this sort of grind way more than a grind like wow or rift as where if i don't do it for a long period of time and come back I'm now so far behind I'm next to useless against(pvp) or with(raids) people who have been grinding for months/years.. for me I can come back to GW2 anytime and enjoy the game and not worry about people stomping all over me or not wanting me in a group just because i haven't been grinding out gear for the past year..

I like this as well in GW2. I will be able to max out and come back for small sessions whenever I wish and not be gimped.

But even in WOW the gear grind was optional. If you PVP'd you had gear to work towards (I did not) if you Raided you had gear to work towards (I did but kinda sucked at it) and if you were questing only you had gear that you worked towards (via quests- I hated questing....)- Thing is you didnt need Raid gear if you didnt raid nor PVP gear if you diidnt PVP. They were pointless other than "bragging rights"

Its really no different as far as being optional.

The difference is in GW2 I really do not have anything to "work for"- Which is fine for the game but again (speaking of longevity) its not sustaining.

Originally posted by Jonoku

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by Jonoku

Originally posted by Enigmatus

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

I think people are missing the general point.

You will not run out of things to do. You will run out of reasons to do them.

How would one make a reason to do something?

fun is reasons? should be singular...reason....that is reason enough to do them IMO.

So, you guys (You in general, not specific) biotch about the WoW "carrot on a stick" because it's too grindy, People are biottching because MoP now has what appears to be more dailys associated with a rep grind. For the past year or so, everyone is saying that GW2 gets rid of the grind it's all about "fun". Someone post a huge list of things to do at 80 that is nothing BUT grind but that's ok because this grind is in GW2 and the reason to do this grind is for "fun"? How is that list all aobut  fun? Or should I say "not a grind"

Wanna run this by me again? I seem to be missing something here.

I don't understand here I haven't mentioned anything about grind. If people are so worried about the cosmetic grind in GW2, learn to not think about the grind and have fun with the game especially WvW, here's a protip not to insult anyone, be balanced getting on GW2 and not play all day erraday, you'll get burnt out fast. I don't even mind the grind idk what people are so upset about, people loved the grind in SWG pre-cu, everyone loved it. Treat a game like a game, you can be competitive if you want but don't treat it like a second job, I'm not saying to go casual either I'm saying to be balanced.

Ahh, I get you. I think we were comparing apples to oranges, But I think I get what you meant now.