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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] General: Taking Down the Giant

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55 posts found

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/17/09
Posts: 1096

9/17/12 12:29:39 PM#21
IMO, it would be better for the gaming industry and gamers if The Giant gradually faded away, lightly bleeding off subs as other games are published. This would ensure the viability of gaming as a business, space for competition and other business models, and make room for Blizz to roll out it's Next Big Project.

Novice Member

Joined: 2/01/06
Posts: 1

9/17/12 12:47:44 PM#22
I think the most obvious reason that WOW has always done so well is because it is cross platform. Nearly any computer made in the last 5 years can run it Pc, Mac or otherwise. I personally dont think that the reason is because it is some revolutionary game.

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/27/11
Posts: 308

9/17/12 12:51:00 PM#23

Pokket says:

"So how does a game actually beat the Giant? By not trying to be it and not trying to beat it. Simple as that."

ANet Says:

"We were number two to World of Warcraft with Guild Wars, now we want to beat them. "

I Say:



Advanced Member

Joined: 8/25/06
Posts: 1316

9/17/12 12:52:15 PM#24

well put , the only way to 'beat the giant is by not trying to beat the giant.' - that said...

WoW has become the new AOL / second life. sadly its passed the mmo novelty.  and prob will be around for a while with its very low tech requirements.


Anet did keep a very low profile releasing GW2! -and brought back the sense of mmo gaming back! (grind or no grind).


newer mmo's will always keep coming out every year, that will never change. for there will always be room for improvements!









Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 6982

9/17/12 1:06:09 PM#25
Originally posted by Gyrus

The problem (in this case) is not that no-one can bring down the giant.

The problem is that those on simply refuse to recognise the game(s?) that have.


Facebook games such as Farmville exceeded WoW numbers years ago.  And, dear Pokket, they did so by "coming up with a new game for people to play".


Now, before I get howls from the gallery about how browser games 'don't count' I suggest you check the games list here. rules even allow games like Farmville to be added (See my thread from several years ago "Farmville vs

Travian was listed and it is a considerably worse game than Farmville.

Zynga might also be an "evil" dev... who here cannot name a few others?


Case closed.


Edit: Correction - it was "Farm Town" at the time.

Pardon while I chuckle at your reference to farmville, it never came close to Wow numbers and it is now a shadow of itself.  A brief fling at the top does not get it.   Shallow games like farmville can only be viable for short periods, people get very tired of them fast.  

Good article OP, one of your best, keep up the good work.


Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19813

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

9/17/12 1:53:35 PM#26
Originally posted by Reas43
Low profile? no claims?
So, what was the point of the celebrated "Manifesto?"*****************

What happened to that "Reponsible developers put out content for free" quote a week ago? *************+++++++++
what about this interview with Forbes?******************

We were number two to World of Warcraft with Guild Wars, now we want to beat them. We’ll be satisfied when the Guild Wars 2 is the most successful MMO. I think we have something unique here and players are going to see it and understand why dynamic events are a way better content model than people have experienced before in online worlds. Word-of-mouth will get people to understand that we really are doing something new and different. The sky’s the limit once this game is out. Online worlds have a networking effect. People will bring friends to Guild Wars 2"

Low profile? What are they putting in the cool aid these days?

Problem is, GW2 has no long term sustainable end game, no "carrort" if you will that WOW so aptly has.

It will fade quickly and not be any major challenge to WOW's dominate market place position.

There's only so many cosmetic armor sets one can collect after all.

I agree with Pokket, if there ever will be a true challenger to WOW it will have to do something pretty different, I'll bet even Blizzard realizes this and will respond in kind with their Titan project because after all, they have to try and outdo themselves, no easy feat for them either. 



Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon


Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 5637

9/17/12 1:59:54 PM#27

To kill a giant, you need a David........or a bigger giant. Right now, we have neither.

I find it interesting how video games have the lowest success rate and the highest totals raised in all Kickstarter projects.

  User Deleted
9/17/12 2:02:27 PM#28

I've never once thought to myself "Gee, I hope this game beats WoW". Maybe that is why I have been able to enjoy the games I have played and/or left them behind...based upon their own merits, not some fantasy of "beating another game"


I like having choices. I like having more than one game to play. Why would I want one game to "beat" another if I like both?


The whole mentality of this is pretty stupid.


Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 5637

9/17/12 2:12:18 PM#29
Originally posted by Psychow

I've never once thought to myself "Gee, I hope this game beats WoW". Maybe that is why I have been able to enjoy the games I have played and/or left them behind...based upon their own merits, not some fantasy of "beating another game"


I like having choices. I like having more than one game to play. Why would I want one game to "beat" another if I like both?


The whole mentality of this is pretty stupid.


More than likely, I'll have GW2, Rift Storl Legion, and MoP on my hard drive before this year is over

I find it interesting how video games have the lowest success rate and the highest totals raised in all Kickstarter projects.


Novice Member

Joined: 7/03/04
Posts: 3618

9/17/12 2:18:29 PM#30

I don't really care about The Giant.  Why even draw comparisons for or against?  Every game stands or falls on it's own merits, and the dirth of outside the box thinking by game designers and developers is only a phase.  Eventually, the genre will auto correct, but how long that takes is anyone's guess. 


Personally, I wonder if the current economic downturn has more to do with game development than most realize, because more risk in game design translates to more financial risk for lenders, and right now lenders are not encouraging a lot of risk.  Hence we get formulaic game design by major studios while small start ups are asking for 'kick-starts'.


But there are some games on the horizon, hopefully they will be good games that garner success.




Novice Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 457

It is a double pleasure to gank the ganker.
-Raven Treeavelli

9/17/12 2:26:24 PM#31
While I don't care if any game comes out so huge that it "beats" WoW, I would love to see WoW bleed about half of it subscriptions to other quality games like Rift, AoC, Eve, and maybe Aion.  There are enough players out there that it sucks that one company is buried in money while the others tend to struggle.  More even success would provide more choices for us, the gamers.

Currently playing:
SWToR, Aion,EQ, Dark Age of Camelot
World of Warcraft, AoC


Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/17/12
Posts: 3

9/17/12 3:02:51 PM#32

I'm not sure why there is this need in the MMO community to take down a "Giant".


Every industry has multiple competitors/choices.  It makes for a more complex and complete consumer experience when you have more than 1 movie channel, more than 1 fast food place, more than 1 car get the idea.


Why do we need to take down WOW?


Here's a concept.  WOW continues on for years and years, offering the WOW experience to whoever wants to play and other games come (and go) offering their experience.  It's up to the game designers, the players and the community to determine their success, growth, evolution etc...just like all other industries.


Are all fast food providers as large as McDonalds?  No.  It doesn't mean lots of other choices don't survive and flourish.  Why worry if Taco Bell has more stores, or larger menus or ..whatever.  They exist as a choice and that is good enough.


Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 5637

9/17/12 3:04:41 PM#33

So, here is a question. If at the height of it's success, WoW didn't cause any other game to fail as a result of it's marketshare capture, What game ever did or ever will? The only games that come close are SWG and SWTOR, but even then, the answer is not within the context of this column.

So, why this topic.......again?

I find it interesting how video games have the lowest success rate and the highest totals raised in all Kickstarter projects.


Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1833

9/17/12 4:11:33 PM#34

Hillary, I think you've hit on a meme that alot of us have been suggesting over the past few years.

The most important point is that you actualy don't NEED to beat the Giant at all.

The key to success in any crowded market (gaming or otherwise) is to find a big enough market segment that is currently being underserved and find a way to deliver a product to serve them well with a budget that allows for a decent ROI.  Alot easier said then done, but that's pretty much business 101.

WoW's audience is pretty impressive....but it's really only a fraction of the overall market for online entertainment. There are lots of people NOT playing WoW (or any MMO)....reaching even a small fraction of them would be enough to support a successfull product.

Heck, even a portion of the people playing WoW probably wouldn't mind playing a 2nd game in long as it's sufficiently different from WoW.

I think you have it exactly...the way you suceed is by NOT competeing with WoW.....but by going after customer's it's not satisfying.

Just as the way you succeed as a supermarket is by not trying to go head to head with Walmart on price. That's a really, really tough battle to go into and win. You suceed by offering something they aren't.


Novice Member

Joined: 6/29/05
Posts: 21

9/17/12 5:27:56 PM#35
Personaly I am waiting for Everquest Next.  I am hoping it can be what vangard should have been. I have played every Major release MMO since WOW and got bored with all of them rather quickly. (GW2 is not very social/RPG type world except for your own main quest so got boring for me quickly) The biggest problem I had with EQ2 was the world pvp was not very good, and the achievement/"talent" system wasn't very good IMO and it encouraged "twinks"  Basically if you wanted to PVP at your level you had to farm AA's this was also compounded by master/Adept 3 type spells.  Something like this should have been for end game players a new leveling system at 80+ IMO.  Well here is waiting.  (Never Winter MMO might be good but looks like they turned D&D into action hybrid so not sure.)  So for those that like those styles and those who just want something new it looks like things are starting to shift in your favor, but hopefully for me EQN goes back to the early days of EQ.

Novice Member

Joined: 8/30/09
Posts: 457

9/17/12 7:24:29 PM#36

Pretending that Tera is anything but Aion with the people that left and copied it...?

What the...


Novice Member

Joined: 11/20/07
Posts: 2336

9/17/12 7:29:23 PM#37
Originally posted by JerYnkFan

Gyrus - I see your point, but I don't think that when someone like Anet or Bioware starts making a MMO that they are thinking "Hey how can we get more subs that Farmville."  IMO they are shooting for the WOW crowd, but I do see the point you are trying to make.

This is the point of Pokket's article too.  That is why MMO Devs fail.

They set out to design an MMO and they start by looking at WoW as a "this is what an MMO is..." guide.

If they want to succeed - they need to come up with their own designs - start from scratch right ffrom the very beginning and say "What can an MMO be?  What do we want it to be?  How do we make that?"

There is a lot of room for improvement in this genre - home PCs and consoles now have many times the potential of those we were running in 2004... so why are we treading water?


Originally posted by Ozmodan

Pardon while I chuckle at your reference to farmville, it never came close to Wow numbers and it is now a shadow of itself.  A brief fling at the top does not get it.   Shallow games like farmville can only be viable for short periods, people get very tired of them fast.  

Good article OP, one of your best, keep up the good work.

So, in that regard it's no different to a host of other "AAA+" MMOs we have seen on this site?

Well, actually there is a difference.  Zynga games are a damn sight cheaper to produce (being a lot simplier technically) than many of those AAA+ titles we have seen try (and fail) in the last couple of years?

It has been noted on this site (among others) that many 'gamers' these days seem to have a shorter and shorter attention span - jumping on to 'the next big thing'.  If that's the case, maybe investing millions of dollars into a triple A MMO that will only remain in vogue for a couple of months is a mistake?

So maybe Zynga has it right?  Don't make MMOs to last.  Simply make MMOs cheap and only support them while they are popular?  Zynga knows that their player base all but abandons one game to move on to the next.... but so long as the next is still a Zynga tilte - they still win. 

What's Zynga's latest 'game'?  Chefville? 

Just from a cursory look - it seems like more of the same to me - essentually just a reskinning of what has been before with some development in 'crafting'... but who cares?  People are playing it. And in six months?  What then?  Florist-ville?  Fashon-ville?  No doubt.

And you could look at each Zynga game as an "expansion pack" when you consider it like that?

But when you can develop Farm Town + Farmville + Chefville + Next-ville cheaper than the cost of one AAA+ title AND have higher revenues to boot then who cares?


You might say this is a very cynical business model?  You know, using a base engine and simply "reskinning it" as quickly and cheaply as possible to produce mediocre games which only maintain short term popularity?

It's not like that hasn't been done by others.  Sorry if that's too Cryptic. ;-)



Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.


Advanced Member

Joined: 11/15/11
Posts: 171

(/O_o)/ mods please close thread.

9/17/12 8:34:24 PM#38
the comment about Blizzard being lucky is dead on.. i dont think many people realize this.. Blizzard did not set up this whole thing to work.. it just worked. it was all about timing.. 

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/15/11
Posts: 171

(/O_o)/ mods please close thread.

9/17/12 8:41:01 PM#39
im not saying they set up to "fail" what im saying is wow had no real formula and thats why it worked. they were focused on fixing what was and adding what wasnt already there. and it worked. not to mention timing.. the MMO genre was still niche when wow dropped.. had this been 2003 and SWTOR dropped.. this would be a diff story.. its all about timing. right now the market is too flooded for anything to survive. there are some really good games out there in the MMO world but because the timing is wrong.. meaning.. WOW is still here and people are still trying to "beat wow" really innovative games dont have a chance. its bad timing. 

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/19/04
Posts: 6379

9/18/12 4:48:37 AM#40
people tend to forget that before the current giant there was that ittle game called EQ1 that WoW beat by taking what was good in it and making it accessable to more people and polishing it up. I have alos seen the irony here of trashing a game like SWOTOR and calling it just anothere WoW clone yet complaining on the GW2 forums about the lack of a trinity, no end game raid gear etc etc..  Seems like you are damned if you do and damned if you don't

I miss DAoC

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