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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » Dungeons - The Lack of the Trinity

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132 posts found
  observer

Elite Member

Joined: 2/17/05
Posts: 2961

First came pride, then envy.

9/14/12 11:21:49 PM#101

WIthout traditional threat mechanics, you get chaos.  This is currently how GW2 is.  It was good in theory, but i feel it was poorly executed.

Boss fights and trash mobs, in dungeons, are not tuned correctly either, which leaves players dying way too much and running back to finish the fight.  This process isn't challenging either, since death doesn't really feel as if it has any consequences, except armor repairs.

  SteeJanz

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/22/11
Posts: 352

9/14/12 11:44:39 PM#102
Originally posted by observer

WIthout traditional threat mechanics, you get chaos.  This is currently how GW2 is.  It was good in theory, but i feel it was poorly executed.

Boss fights and trash mobs, in dungeons, are not tuned correctly either, which leaves players dying way too much and running back to finish the fight.  This process isn't challenging either, since death doesn't really feel as if it has any consequences, except armor repairs.

I think most people who make statement like these havent ran enough of the dungeons and need to learn the mechanics before they claim them to be broken.  Evidently we are have two very different experiences.  There are rules to the holy trinity that people follow, Healer heals, Tanks tank, DPS burns down the boss.  There are gear requirements as well.  You don't have tanks wearing healing gear.  YOu don't take 5 dps into WOW dungeons yet most are trying to do it in GW2 a claiming its broken.  I don't know how many times it needs to be said.  Show me an example of a dungeon Party in GW2 that is geared and traited correctly, using the correct skills for to encounters and still failing horribly. 

There are rules to the holy trinity that people don't break for a reason.  Plus, there are not guides to describe every single fight for you like in other games.  Give it time or suck it up and deal with the trial and error to figure out.  If it will make you feel better run the Maag run in CoF.  It's easy and you can farm the crap out of it like most others are. 

  GrayGhost79

Novice Member

Joined: 8/30/08
Posts: 4889

9/14/12 11:54:54 PM#103
Originally posted by voxnor

Just got done with my first experience in a dungeon - Twilight Arbor Story Mode on my 58 Ranger (down-scaled to 50, of course).

Group looked like this:

54 Necro

54 Warrior

58 Ranger (me)

55 Theif

80 Warrior

 

Now, I will elaborate below, but if I were to blurt out my feelings immediatly it would be "sadly dissapointed and not impressed".

 

Now for the elaboration: I have thus far been a huge fan of GW2 ( a peak at my posting history will show you as much ). And, I had high hopes for the lack of the Trinity. And yet, I can't shake this nasty feeling after my first dungeon. I found that the encounters were either point and click - or a ressurection fest.

 

What I mean by this, is that I think it was and will be very difficult for group strategy to be employed with the lack of the trinity. The second boss, for example, summons a massive amount of spider adds. Our method for handling this was running in circles, shooting the boss, dodging when not out of endurance. This caused frequent deaths - but due to the adds ressurection is not an option - so we would just run back from the spawn point and re-enter the fight in progress. This was not fun.

 

The third boss, however, while gimicky (kitty kat) was tank n' spank, without the tank! (All spank, baby)

 

The point to all this is the following:

 

  1. How can / will ANet make complex, engaging encounters without the trinity?
  2. Will they ever be able to shift the emphasis to good group play and away from good individual play without the trinity?
  3. Why am I dying in story mode? I'd like to go into story mode for the, you know, story.
 
 

Actually the problem isn't with the design, it's with the players adapting to that design. I did a few AC runs today. 2 pugs and 3 with people I knew and cordinated with. The 2 pugs was filled with a lot of rezzing and spank little strategy. With the people I knew there was little to no death, that doesn't mean it was easy though lol. Players have to find out where they fit in, it helps if you know youe team. 

Sorry you had a bad group, but with practice you will find good group play actually exists... IF you have a good group lol. 

  xpiher

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/22/08
Posts: 3346

9/15/12 4:42:43 AM#104
It souds like you were in a bad group. While the trinty doesn't exist in a hard state, the ability to syngerize healing and utility skills make it possible to surmount challenges. You complained about healing against the spider fight. Well, your necro could have been speced to be support with a trait that creates a well of blood every time he revies someone which can be triggered by a skill that revives 3 near by fallen comrads instantly. 


Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
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  Worfi

Novice Member

Joined: 9/10/12
Posts: 16

9/15/12 5:14:53 AM#105

 

 

In the end if you make design that players can't adopt or it's difficult for them to adopt to, that is called bad design. If you say dungeons don't have trinity but you need to have in group someone who have more healing, someone who can take more damage and some cc you basically say you don't need trinity but you better have one.

They say this way you don't need to w8 for tank/healer. Yes, but you don't have anything to w8 them for? Dungeons feel like other parts of game, just instanced (some random DE more carefully designed and balanced for specific group) and from design point of view you rip yourself from a lot of tactical possibility's that "trinity" system can offer. In "trinity system" designers know which roles will be filled in dungeon/raid so they can make fights that depends on tanking/off tanking in that moment, kiting, interrupts, healing etc. Here they just can't make game mechanics they want. 

People in trinity complain about "bad" tanks/healers, their build, dps builds and say here is different. But that is not truth. Here people will have even more difficulty to do some tougher tasks if they don't have more balanced or "better" group. So you will get more "omg you are guardian and don't have this ability" etc. complains...

  someforumguy

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/25/07
Posts: 3585

9/15/12 5:24:23 AM#106

OP explains perfectly why I don't pug for dungeons in GW2. I absolutely hate the zerg and die crap. I have seen this kind of suggestion before in GW2 chat.

His problem was more his group's mentality then the game imo. I would group with Xerith (poster on first page) though. They seem to have figured out that you can use tactics and specific skill sets very effectively in dungeons.

  Akulas

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/25/06
Posts: 1591

9/15/12 5:25:00 AM#107
Bring a guardian along, use dodges, don't just stand there and press numbers, run around and think about the fights. It's about thinking a bit more and it's a bit different but once you get it it's easy. It's about player skill kind of and not so much gear / role etc and you don't even need to bring a guardian along either.

This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  Master10K

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/18/10
Posts: 3086

9/15/12 7:25:37 AM#108
Originally posted by Worfi

In the end if you make design that players can't adopt or it's difficult for them to adopt to, that is called bad design. If you say dungeons don't have trinity but you need to have in group someone who have more healing, someone who can take more damage and some cc you basically say you don't need trinity but you better have one.

They say this way you don't need to w8 for tank/healer. Yes, but you don't have anything to w8 them for? Dungeons feel like other parts of game, just instanced (some random DE more carefully designed and balanced for specific group) and from design point of view you rip yourself from a lot of tactical possibility's that "trinity" system can offer. In "trinity system" designers know which roles will be filled in dungeon/raid so they can make fights that depends on tanking/off tanking in that moment, kiting, interrupts, healing etc. Here they just can't make game mechanics they want. 

People in trinity complain about "bad" tanks/healers, their build, dps builds and say here is different. But that is not truth. Here people will have even more difficulty to do some tougher tasks if they don't have more balanced or "better" group. So you will get more "omg you are guardian and don't have this ability" etc. complains...

That first point you make is simply unture, because in the case of GW2, the game slowly feeds the player new mechanics before they even unlock the first dungeon. Like how they tier the utility skills, forcing players to have a diverse range of skills unlocked before unlocking the next tier. And how the target's unit frame tells the player exactly what to look out for when dealing with specific mobs. So as long as the game shows the player the main mechanics of the game, then it is entirely on the player to adopt them and adapt to those mechanics.

 

This reminds me of the last time I ran Sorrow's Embrace (level 60+ story dungeon). Me and a friend pugged a group and we ended up as a group made of: 1 Ele (me), 1 Necro, 2 Thieves and a Warrior. Me and my friend had already done it once before, so we kinda knew what to expect. However the Warrior decided to mindlessly pull the 1st pack and of course because none of us was entirely ready, the Warrior was immediately killed by those mole people and it quickly followed in a wipe. The Warrior then QQ'd and left, forcing us to get out and find someone else. But I glad that person did leave as I had the best pug experience I've ever had in a long time. Turned out we got another Ele, so we pretty much had a group full of squishies. I asked the new Ele to change out his Staff, until the 1st boss, for a Scepter/Focus set-up, to make the next couple pulls easier on our group. Surprisingly he did and we blazed through the 1st half of the dungeon until we met a brick wall. Kudu and his Golems.

 

The funny thing is that after a couple wipes and some failed attempts at zerg ressing the 2nd Golem (it's just too far from the res point), we actually came up with a tactic to beat it by stand together and 4 of us using projectile reflects. This actually worked. The encounter that we were smacking our faces against, we ended up strolled through it with a bit a build adjustment and team co-ordination. However not everyone you'd come across, in a pug, will be that adaptable and in a game like GW2, there seemed to be a lot more people like that Warrior I encountered. Who pretty much rage quit after the 1st bad pull.

  Volkon

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3824

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

9/15/12 9:22:44 AM#109
Originally posted by Master10K

... Surprisingly he did and we blazed through the 1st half of the dungeon until we met a brick wall. Kudu and his Golems.

 

The funny thing is that after a couple wipes and some failed attempts at zerg ressing the 2nd Golem (it's just too far from the res point), we actually came up with a tactic to beat it by stand together and 4 of us using projectile reflects. This actually worked. The encounter that we were smacking our faces against, we ended up strolled through it with a bit a build adjustment and team co-ordination. However not everyone you'd come across, in a pug, will be that adaptable and in a game like GW2, there seemed to be a lot more people like that Warrior I encountered. Who pretty much rage quit after the 1st bad pull.

 Oh, that fire one was a  real pain at first! I wound up focusing more on the fight itself than attacking the golem, and it seemed to help... mesmer utilities I had were Null Field (removed conditions from allies and buffs from enemies, light field combo effects), Arcane Theivery (take boons from enemy and give him your conditions) and the reflective bubble one that sends projectiles back to the caster. With scepter/pistol keeping clones and phantasms out (more targets) as well as good use of pistol 5 and shatter 3 (interrupts) it helped minimize to a degree damage we were taking. Oh, can't forget my defensive golem elite. I wuvs that big hunk o' metal. I call him Snuggles.

 

It's amazing how much more fun (and yes, manageable) the fights become when you slow down and think. I had a blast.

Oderint, dum metuant.

  adam_nox

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/31/06
Posts: 2115

9/15/12 9:51:06 AM#110

Did my first dungeon last night and it wasn't fun.  Ascalonian crypt or whatever.

 

It was short, thank god, and really very uninteresting in terms of explorableness and story. 

 

I understand not wanting tank, healer, etc.  But they give you the ability to stack healing stat and use some healerish abilities, so just let people stack healer gear and keep others alive.

 

And if an enemy is being melee'd, they should never be able to turn their back on the melee'r.  Or take big damage if they do.  I don't care about threat management, instead let's use some common sense.

 

The end boss of AC just uses a retarded area effect to kill off players.  As a ranged it took 2 hits to down me, and since it kept going for a long time while I'm immobile, it was a certain death.  I could roll out of the way most of the time, but what about melee folks who need to stay next to him to hit?

 

Whether the general concept is doable is one thing you can defend if you want, but I find it hilarious to claim that GW2 pulls it off. 

  Wrender

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/03/04
Posts: 1426

The truth shall set you free!
The truth shall piss you off!

9/15/12 9:57:48 AM#111
Originally posted by voxnor

 

  1. How can / will ANet make complex, engaging encounters without the trinity?
  2. Will they ever be able to shift the emphasis to good group play and away from good individual play without the trinity?
  3. Why am I dying in story mode? I'd like to go into story mode for the, you know, story.
 
 

 1. There is nothing complex or engaging in GW2 and prob never will be.

2. Groups do not exist outside of dungeons. Have yet to see a dungeon but i imagine thier pretty chaotic. Can't someone tank at all?

3. Dying in story mode only to be rezzed is dumb. If you die in story mode you should be dead for good or at least rezzed outside of the story instance.

  Purutzil

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 2968

The Critical Hit Pretzel!

9/15/12 10:00:30 AM#112

I think most people who make statement like these havent ran enough of the dungeons and need to learn the mechanics before they claim them to be broken.  Evidently we are have two very different experiences.  There are rules to the holy trinity that people follow, Healer heals, Tanks tank, DPS burns down the boss.  There are gear requirements as well.  You don't have tanks wearing healing gear.  YOu don't take 5 dps into WOW dungeons yet most are trying to do it in GW2 a claiming its broken.  I don't know how many times it needs to be said.  Show me an example of a dungeon Party in GW2 that is geared and traited correctly, using the correct skills for to encounters and still failing horribly. 

There are rules to the holy trinity that people don't break for a reason.  Plus, there are not guides to describe every single fight for you like in other games.  Give it time or suck it up and deal with the trial and error to figure out.  If it will make you feel better run the Maag run in CoF.  It's easy and you can farm the crap out of it like most others are. 

Basically your saying the trinity still exists though in a different form. Still, It IS chaos. I can have CC and the likes involved, but in the end it just lessens the downed times you have, it doesn't make it a smooth run. You see players who PRIDE themselves on being hardcore raiders getting stomped in dungeons and they do adjust and they still will go down.

The system IS chaos and the only thing you can really do is calm it down. I have yet to wipe completely in a dungeon but I also have yet to go through a dungeon without seeing having people go downed several times on the way through. You can plug a leaking boat but it won't stop the fact water will eventually seap its way in and you will sink.

  nationalcity

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/31/04
Posts: 358

9/15/12 10:14:42 AM#113

lol, its so funny looking through this thread and every defense of this model is YOU WERE IN A BAD GROUP....

 

Is that the only thing people can come up with? I mean if it lots of people are having trouble in dungeons that must mean everyone in the game was in a bad group?

 

Come on, you know as well as I thats its the fundamental design of the game.. Not having a trinity screwed the pooch the dungeons are a chaoctic mess just like everyone else is saying people can spin it however they want...

 

Maybe it is easier when you actually have people you know with you but I still don't beleive for one second people going in there and just clearing and never having a death unless they have done the run tons of times, now if its a new group going in there for the first time you can say whatever you want but I don't beleive for one second that the group would go into the dungeon and not have at least one wipe or more the way its setup....

 

 

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 5285

9/15/12 10:15:04 AM#114
Originally posted by voxnor

The point to all this is the following:

  1. How can / will ANet make complex, engaging encounters without the trinity?
  2. Will they ever be able to shift the emphasis to good group play and away from good individual play without the trinity?
  3. Why am I dying in story mode? I'd like to go into story mode for the, you know, story.

Try some of the explorable modes.

Here's an example of one of the challenges (not even a boss, mind you). CM explorable:

In one of the paths is a room full of rocket launchers. If you try and run through it they'll 1shot people with average / low HP, and 2 shot people with decent / high HP. However, there's no way around them, and you need to figure out how to get passed them (not going to spoil that surprise).

Passed that is another tunnel, that is flooded with spike traps. There is literally nowhere you can walk without potentially getting hit by a spike trap. Furthermore, on the far end of the tunnel are 2 snipers (extra long range) who do more damage against moving targets. They are also accompanied by 2 grenadiers (throw AoE explosions frequently). All are elite. You can't pull them into the next room, because the next room happens to have an entire army of bandits inside (about 30-40 elite mobs tightly packed), and you can't pull them back across the traps either. Whatdu do?

Now, some people may find these kinds of mechanics cheap, but if you use your brain they are actually not that hard to overcome. It just requires some thought and tactical planning. Furthermore none of these challenges require a tank or a healer. The challenge comes from knowing what your class (and other people's classes) are capable of, and figuring out the best combination of skills / strategies to deal with a particular challenge. Dodging helps, and coordination definitely helps, but ultimately it comes down to accepting the fact that you can't approach every encounter the same way. It's not a DPS race all the time. Sometimes you need to outrun adds. Sometimes you need heavy condition removal. Sometimes you need a lot of CC, or stability. Unfortunately very few players think this way. They are still stuck in the mindset that 'full-on DPS is the only way to go!'. This also leads them to having laughably small HP pools, which results in them getting 1 shotted by almost everything.

- Honestly, you shouldn't be dying in story mode. Not very often at least. Usually the only times I die in storymode is when I'm not paying attention, or I overcommit to ressing someone and can't dodge intime. The storymodes may seem hard at first, but they really do warm you up to explorables rather well. If you think storymode is tough, you're going to get to explorables and think they're all impossible.

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 5285

9/15/12 10:20:28 AM#115
Originally posted by nationalcity

Maybe it is easier when you actually have people you know with you but I still don't beleive for one second people going in there and just clearing and never having a death unless they have done the run tons of times, now if its a new group going in there for the first time you can say whatever you want but I don't beleive for one second that the group would go into the dungeon and not have at least one wipe or more the way its setup....

Why would you want people going through 'challenging content' the first time without a single death?

What makes them challenging is you go in, you die, and you learn from your mistakes. GW2's dungeons are all designed this way. They are made difficult, but once you figure them out (after a couple runs), they become less challenging, because you know how to deal w/ the encounters. Even still, many of them require consistantly good timing, making them challenging even though u are familiar with the trick.

I've cleared multiple dungeons without a tanky class or heal/support class in the group. I've done some of the dungeons with all thieves, or all warriors. Is it harder? Absolutely. You have less skills to work with. However, they're still doable. Furthermore, these are all dungeons you can get through without a single death. It's all up to the skill of the players, as well as their understanding of the dungeon's mechanics.

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2836

9/15/12 10:34:06 AM#116

My guild improvements in story mode/explorable dungeons are noticeable.

There is still a lot of going to down state, but outright defeat or full wipes went down significantly.

Perfection all the time will be hard to achieve since there is a timing component and a movement component that makes each dungeon run unique,

Also, different professions, specs and skills selected will mean the solution to each encounter will differ.

Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, King of Tokyo

  snapfusion

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/17/11
Posts: 976

9/15/12 10:40:26 AM#117

The community seems split on this, you have the 2.0 crowd that thinks double tapping around the encounter area is new and refreshing and not having to (heaven forbid) be responisible for another persons life is the second coming.

You have another group that feels without roles your not really working as a group your just kind of playing with yourself while surrounded by some other people playing with themselfs and it everyone plays with themselfs well enough the boss will eventually die.

I actually prefer forcing people to be responsible for doing their job well at the expense of other peoples lives.  I think it adds more risk to the game, makes it more social and ultimately more rewarding.

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 4852

9/15/12 10:41:26 AM#118
Exactly, having a game tuned so you do not die in you first ever run is the equivelant of saying player won't improve in performance as they learn the instance. Arguing for this is ofc either short sighted or infers a fundamental misunderstanding of the most basic principles of gaming - even my 5 year old daughter understand practice makes perfect. This is more to do with the modern impatient culture that has evolved from certain mmorgs.

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  Master10K

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/18/10
Posts: 3086

9/15/12 10:45:12 AM#119
Originally posted by aesperus
*snip*

Try some of the explorable modes.

Here's an example of one of the challenges (not even a boss, mind you). CM explorable:

In one of the paths is a room full of rocket launchers. If you try and run through it they'll 1shot people with average / low HP, and 2 shot people with decent / high HP. However, there's no way around them, and you need to figure out how to get passed them (not going to spoil that surprise).

Passed that is another tunnel, that is flooded with spike traps. There is literally nowhere you can walk without potentially getting hit by a spike trap. Furthermore, on the far end of the tunnel are 2 snipers (extra long range) who do more damage against moving targets. They are also accompanied by 2 grenadiers (throw AoE explosions frequently). All are elite. You can't pull them into the next room, because the next room happens to have an entire army of bandits inside (about 30-40 elite mobs tightly packed), and you can't pull them back across the traps either. Whatdu do?

Now, some people may find these kinds of mechanics cheap, but if you use your brain they are actually not that hard to overcome. It just requires some thought and tactical planning. Furthermore none of these challenges require a tank or a healer. The challenge comes from knowing what your class (and other people's classes) are capable of, and figuring out the best combination of skills / strategies to deal with a particular challenge. Dodging helps, and coordination definitely helps, but ultimately it comes down to accepting the fact that you can't approach every encounter the same way. It's not a DPS race all the time. Sometimes you need to outrun adds. Sometimes you need heavy condition removal. Sometimes you need a lot of CC, or stability. Unfortunately very few players think this way. They are still stuck in the mindset that 'full-on DPS is the only way to go!'. This also leads them to having laughably small HP pools, which results in them getting 1 shotted by almost everything.

- Honestly, you shouldn't be dying in story mode. Not very often at least. Usually the only times I die in storymode is when I'm not paying attention, or I overcommit to ressing someone and can't dodge intime. The storymodes may seem hard at first, but they really do warm you up to explorables rather well. If you think storymode is tough, you're going to get to explorables and think they're all impossible.

This is so true.

So many encounters or mobs that I once found incredibly hard and cheap, become manageable once I and the rest of the group knows the trick to it. I also find it laughable how people still go into dungeons with their full-on crit damage builds and no condition removal and complain that the dungeon is broken and overtoned. Now I do admit that some mobs and bosses should have their HP pools looked at (Kudu's 2nd Golem & some Guardian boss in CM explorable inparticular) however the damage they deal seems just fine, for the most part. People just need to learn how to survive and also build around some basic survivability (condition removal and damage reduction is a must). So that they can live long enough to figure out the mechanics.

 

Oh well, I guess just like how only a small portion of any other MMORPG's playerbase actually raids, only a small portion of GW2's playerbase will actually get into the whole dungeon thing. Seeing how it really takes people out of their comfort zone.

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 4852

9/15/12 10:47:13 AM#120
There is roles, but they are shared, once people learn to communicate again and stop with the dostructive you are a healer it's not my job to keep me alive attitude (etc) and be both responsible for their own state and care about other people (you don't need 'roles' for this) then instances are no different.

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

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