Oh Twilight Arbor. I actually liked that story mode dungeon, because I've found actual tactics (through trial and error) that make the dungeon a much more plesant experience. Without all the zerg ressing so many individuals feel the need to employ. Last time I did it, I don't think my group died much.

1. First champion that singles out random targets has to be kept blind/weakened and chilled/crippled. The person who gets singled out simply has to dodge out of the way and kite for a bit, until she picks a new target
2. The spider one you mention is stupid easy if you're smart about it. Just kite around the boss, pew pewing away, never stopping to to use any ability that roots you into an animation (I'm talking to you Longbow Rangers & Staff Elementalist). Plus periodically dropping AOE CC's for the spiders that chase. I never die on this encounter anymore.
3. On the 3rd champion. You're right, this encounter is pretty much a tank and spank, without the tank. ArenaNet needs to make the confusion condition the boss gives you, punishingly stronger.
4. The final encounter with the fake Destiny's Edge is hard if your group doesn't have AOE continual blind and without it, the fight will look chaotic and will result in a lot of frustration and blaming the game. With it, I've found the fight to be very manageable and a lot less messy, with less people dying and needing a res. Did it once without anyone going to the down state. Just pull them all and immediately AOE blind the group (a necro, elementalist & thief can do this). The burn Eir to the ground and nuke the boss when the comes to res. Rinse & repeat.

CC's are what replace tanking and boons are what replace healing and keeping those rolling is a group effort. You simply can't mindlessly go into a dungeon and expect it to be a cake walk in this game, especially when you brind nothing more to the group besides more damage. The good thing is that my Hybrid Elementalist brings so much to the group that I rarely have issues that cannot be resolved with simple forethought.

Originally posted by ignore_me
I personally hate the trinity, and I think the unrealistic habit of dividing the tasks into those roles has changed how people approach content. It's hard to divorce yourself from the mechanic that has dominated games for so long. If the fights are more chaotic that is a good thing to me. No plan survives contact with the enemy.

Yeah, Von Moltke. But if you know about that you probably know that he indded put a lot of work into planning as well.

No plan kinda makes you toast, even if your original plan wont work as intended.

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by voxnor

Allright, i'll go along with this.

You mention you have done explore mode content, and that it "requires more coopeartion and is not just kite and heal". In what ways does it require more cooporation? Can you describe maybe 2 or 3 fights, and the different ways in which they require more than kiting, healing, and resurrecting?

As a thief for example, I might stealth the entire group after the adds are down, allowing us a few precious seconds of rest.  When everyone is out of steam stuff like that is what saves the day.

Of course in a PUG that might be a coordination problem, my guild is trying to use our classes specialities as best as we can.

The engineer put out his mines in certain places and we wait kite the mobs over them until the right moment and so on. Most if not all classes have stuff like that you can time together.

Not to nit pick... but I asked for things that weren't healing and kiting and you listed two abilities.. 1 is a heal (shadow refuge), and the other a kiting tactic.........

---

Originally posted by Castillle
My problem with pugsare the following [*] Majority are glass cannons. [*] Majority dont know how to combo. [*] Majority splash all their fields at the same time preventing proper combo field usage. [*] Majority dont know who to focus and arent willing to learn. Majority wastes dodges and treats them as a speed boost.
Majority dont know about survival comboes or "stop hitting shit and run tehn stayon the edge of battle while poking enemies"
Everyone thinks he/she is a god that can solo everything or
dood thinks all he/she has to do is press 6for aoe healing every 15 or soseconds and nothing else.
  Please stop putting fields on top of each other. Thats wasteful.   And for gods sake detonating clusterbomb means NO BLAST FINISHER AND NOT 3x BLAST FINISHERS IN 1 ABILITY!    

---

you do realize that certain classes gain combos from combining fields right?

Originally posted by voxnor

Originally posted by Loke666

As a thief for example, I might stealth the entire group after the adds are down, allowing us a few precious seconds of rest.  When everyone is out of steam stuff like that is what saves the day.

Of course in a PUG that might be a coordination problem, my guild is trying to use our classes specialities as best as we can.

The engineer put out his mines in certain places and we wait kite the mobs over them until the right moment and so on. Most if not all classes have stuff like that you can time together.

Not to nit pick... but I asked for things that weren't healing and kiting and you listed two abilities.. 1 is a heal (shadow refuge), and the other a kiting tactic.........

Shadow refugee do heal but that is not the point, the point is that you refill your cooldowns, initiative or whatever you use.

The other is a kiting tactic, it is true but it do take a lot more timing than just running around in circles.

I used to play a GS warrior, and ran lots of story modes just like you. My rotation would be charge in, pop frenzy, signet of rage, hundred blades, try to whirlwind back to the party, usually ended up running back from the spawn point. Frenzy is a killer bro, in more ways than one. I took a more relaxed approach to it after the first dungeon, used a bow, did some kiting, died a little less, but I was still pretty damn squishy. At least I could clear em... after a long repair bill and sometimes several hours.

What I didn't realize until recently, is WE WERE DOING IT WRONG. Since there is no healer, no tank, you can't just build for damage, and expect to not get hit. You have to build for survivability, and while the dps will be lower, in the long run, the dungeon will be faster. Bosses really dont have that much hp tbh, and theres NO ENRAGES. Take an hour fighting em, I've done it, in fact one boss took a little over an hour due to running back, one person kiting so the bosses hp didnt reset, etc. (God that was a nightmare, first time in AC, the Lovers. Three days after release, thought we would steam roll it with our fresh 80s, had no idea wtf we were getting in to.)

Anyway, point is, you need utility. Ever notice those little popups you get when you aoe in a cloud of poison, or use a finisher in line of smoke? Those are additional conditions that you can affect mobs with, or give yourself a boon. Everyone needs to be aware of those, and bring classes that will provide those. A simple search on the wiki will find your combos, not gonna get into all of em here.

Leveling a Necro now, I see a lot of warriors, like me, hammering away at mobs like they're the Juggernaut. Dropping wells on them, and debuffing mobs makes them walk out of fights with almost full hp against groups of vets and champs, and they think they did something amazing. You have to utilize that in dungeons to keep damage low, and healable, and be aware of your group, what they are doing, and where they are. Blind, Daze, Confusion, Weakness, all these things need to be kept up as much as possible, and one person can't do it alone. Not everyone will have those spells, but with Combos, you can keep em up quite a bit if you time things right.

The more people that go with a standard, glass cannon dps spec for the big numbers will be steadily surprised when they go into a dungeon and get used like a dirty mop.

The only problem I have with the dungeons is that they just aren't tuned for the required level.

Traits and a broader skill selection and more versatile gear play a big difference, especially in the explorable mode.

Now, what kind of team tactics does the dungeon require?

- Splits during protection phases.

- Fast coordinated movement.

- Coordinate CC, especially with defiant+unshakable mechanic bosses have, one needs to keep the boss in the state of 0 defiant charges so we can then interrupt the big attacks.

-The ability to alter the utility skills, tailoring the selection for every fight. One exemple, reflect projectile mesmer bubble works very well vs the 2nd boss (ghost lieutenant).

- Condition and boon stacking.

- Combo execution.

All of that on top of your individual responsability of dodging and healing yourself.

Ran Sorrows Embrace last night with some fellow MMORPG guildies and had an absolute blast. I really started appreciating my mesmer as well, especially on the one boss (Kudu? Kujo? Something like that...) that pulls the three uber-golems in. There was no such thing as zerging this fight. Period. I'm using a scepter/pistol with a greatsword and have traited into having my clones do neat things on shatter, plus on utilities I have... um... Null field, Arcane Thievery and the reflective bubble one that turns someones ranged attacks back at them. It became probably one of the most "observation required" fights I can recall to date from many years of playing MMOs. Oh, and so much fire... But keeping phantasms up to not only throw in damage but to also serve as targets, keeping at least one clone up (thanks Scepter 1!), looking for burning allies and trying to get as many as I could with Null field, using the bubble to (hopefully) reduce outgoing damage, even getting myself set on fire on purpose a couple times for Arcane Thievery. Moving, looking for cover, dodging the long range attacks... what an absolute blast I had. Still died and had to respawn a couple times but I was no where near flawless, so it was expected. Oh, can't forget using Pistol 5 or shatter 3 for interrupting some of those big golem attacks! Trinity? We don't need no stinkin' trinity! Zerg? Not possible on this one for sure.

Thanks again to the MMORPG guildies that came along. When you need a mesmer again, and you know you will, because, well... mesmer..., let me know!

Originally posted by voxnor

1. Why am I dying in story mode? I'd like to go into story mode for the, you know, story.

I agree with this. A challenge is fine but it's a lot of effort to get the story, let us choose how we want to play. I'd even prefer there to be a solo option for story mode, even if there was hardly any reward.

I think they must drop down the dmg in pve or at least bosses and mobs make an animation that suggest you must run away or evade and this non trinity system can work properly, The actualy system just sux and make instances just respawn at the entrance repair and come back and this is bored.

Originally posted by Vannor

Originally posted by voxnor

1. Why am I dying in story mode? I'd like to go into story mode for the, you know, story.

I agree with this. A challenge is fine but it's a lot of effort to get the story, let us choose how we want to play. I'd even prefer there to be a solo option for story mode, even if there was hardly any reward.

Story mode is easier than explorable but to make it a cake walk is just a disservice.The point is to understand and watch all going around - it is supposed to be more engrossing.  I guess you never played some of the GW1 elite areas - many were just a total pain but if you planned well in a group, they were fun and exciting. I have done Rift elite dungeons and they were just - move, zerg, move, stop fighting, zerg, etc. nothing exciting there.

The idea of this game is COOPERATION - I find it much more so in this game compared to others WoW and Rift come to mind (from playing them).

Originally posted by Xzen
I've run into a few dungeon encounters where you just can't out rez a boss encounter. Trying to "zerg" the encounter will result in wipe after wipe until you start using your brain to figure out how to beat it.

There is the key - in Rift many Boss encounters are just a DPS race.

QFT!!

Originally posted by SteeJanz

Wouldn't you think to be fair, you would have to give it a few runs, maybe learn the group mechanics that you may be missing.  I recognize what you are saying, death and running back is no fun if you do it a ton.  With that being said, I am finding the dungeons more and more enjoyable, after I have learned the fights and what I am suppose to do. 

Run explorable mode AC and fight Kohler (?).   At first you will die a ton, but once you get used to it you don't die nearly as much.  You also learn a very valuable lesson, in GW2 you never take your eyes of the boss.  We have been used to the tank taking care of that for us, now everyone must pay attention or you will die.  Also, you recognize that it is better to get some up from a down state before they are defeated.  You get them back up much faster.  Anyway.   It's really kind of unfair to judge a game before you understand it.  They really play the same, don't stand in stuff, avoid big damage attacks, if someone is down, do what ever you can to get the attention of the boss, understand what the boss does and how things affect them.  Some bosses are not affected by CC and stuff like that. 

 

Basically I think it is a little quick to jump to the forums to post your issue when it may just be you.  Prove it out first.  Run the dungeon multiple times, learn the fights. 

+1

Basically what you are saying is the dynamics ARE different, so using the same old strategy , quite obviously , wont work.

Originally posted by voxnor

Originally posted by SteeJanz

Wouldn't you think to be fair, you would have to give it a few runs, maybe learn the group mechanics that you may be missing.  I recognize what you are saying, death and running back is no fun if you do it a ton.  With that being said, I am finding the dungeons more and more enjoyable, after I have learned the fights and what I am suppose to do. 

Run explorable mode AC and fight Kohler (?).   At first you will die a ton, but once you get used to it you don't die nearly as much.  You also learn a very valuable lesson, in GW2 you never take your eyes of the boss.  We have been used to the tank taking care of that for us, now everyone must pay attention or you will die.  Also, you recognize that it is better to get some up from a down state before they are defeated.  You get them back up much faster.  Anyway.   It's really kind of unfair to judge a game before you understand it.  They really play the same, don't stand in stuff, avoid big damage attacks, if someone is down, do what ever you can to get the attention of the boss, understand what the boss does and how things affect them.  Some bosses are not affected by CC and stuff like that. 

 

Basically I think it is a little quick to jump to the forums to post your issue when it may just be you.  Prove it out first.  Run the dungeon multiple times, learn the fights. 

 

I can understand your recomendations - and were I not me, I would think it was sound advice. But as someone with 10 years in MMO's, most of them in moderate to hardcore PVE environments, I feel I have earned the ability to safely judge something quite quickly.

 

For example, on the nightmare spawning boss (#2 in story mode), I completely understood his tactics. I know all of my skills, and selected some great AoE kiting tools for utility. And all of that, played near flawlessly, still got me killed, still had me running in circles, and still was a zerg-fest.

First off, if burning down a boss is a zergfest, then every dungeon is a zergfest.  Having a tank keep it under control so the deeps can zerg it does not make it less different.  Becuase you aren't standing still doesn't mean moving makes it a zerg.  The word zerg is being used to loosely.  A Zerg is having numbers over the foe, just because there is five of you and one boss does not mean that you zerged him, especially if your the one constantly running from a way point.   

#2.  You are not owed anything because of your gaming experience.  Not trying to be mean but, your basically saying the dungeon should work like you are used to them working.  As I said before , most of the stuff is the same like don't stand in stuff but just because you have to move and sometimes move alot does not mean it is a zerg or that the dungeon is bad.  It is part of the mechanics.

You have described the professions that came with you but you have not provided info on how those players were spec'ed.  If all of you are spec'ed as Power and Crit with no support  then your saying that the dungeon should function like the trinity without having to spec like a trinity.  Your logic doesn't work.  5 DPS players can not run a level appropriate dungeon in WOW.  So why would expect to be able to do it in GW2.    And I am not talking about weapons here.  Just because you switch to a weapon that has a heal does not make it that great.  You need the +healing stats to make them more affective.  All the power and crit gear equiped doesn't make the skill as useful.   In WOW, your healer you bring to the dungeon, can't run it in Deeps gear and your tanks can't tank in healer gear.

I do under stand were you are coming from, I was pissed after completeing my first Explorable AC run (two failures before that.)  I spent more time running from a waypoint than anything else.  And I complained that it wasn't fun and was thinking they need to change it.  But after thinking about it I realized we just kept throwing ourselves at the dungeons, no coordination, no one was specced for support, and we tried to just burn everything down.   The Holy Trinity forces you to have at least one strategy for every fight.  The tank will manage boss, the dps will burn the boss down and the healer will heal.   The GW2 way doesn't force it, and its up to each player to bring things that provide for group dynamics that will make the run a much better experience.   GW2 removes the hard set roles of the trinity, however you steal need heals, dps and tanks(people that can control the boss) to survive the encounter.   I now spec as a support and I am enjoying the dungeons quite abit more. 

You complain about story mode being too hard yet you just made it through the dungeon without properly spec'ing for the dungeon.  I think thats how it should be.    Could you do that in a WOW dungeon. 

And just to make one thing clear,  just because everyone can rez, it doesn't mean that rezzing is effective in a dungeon.  It is fare better to help a downed player back up before they are defeated, then to try and rez a defeated player.  Don't wait for them to get defeated, get to them and get them up.  It's the most common misconception in the dungeon.  The only time you don't is if you have the aggro of the boss or the fight doesn't allow it.  Most do, the spider boss (3rd in TA) doesn't because you have to be moving the whole fight.   But I slot a utility skill that helps the group.  Elixir R helps reive downed players faster, it gives them a 20% boost in reviving for 6 secounds.   Which is another good point you can switch skills out before the fight to slot the best ones for the fight.  Don't forget to do that as well.

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by ignore_me
I personally hate the trinity, and I think the unrealistic habit of dividing the tasks into those roles has changed how people approach content. It's hard to divorce yourself from the mechanic that has dominated games for so long. If the fights are more chaotic that is a good thing to me. No plan survives contact with the enemy.

Yeah, Von Moltke. But if you know about that you probably know that he indded put a lot of work into planning as well.

No plan kinda makes you toast, even if your original plan wont work as intended.

I agree. I think its important though that people don't use the same plan they have been using, and if the game forces adaptation and improvisation I think that is an evolutionary step in the right direction for MMOs.

Originally posted by SteeJanz

Originally posted by voxnor

Originally posted by SteeJanz

 

 

I can understand your recomendations - and were I not me, I would think it was sound advice. But as someone with 10 years in MMO's, most of them in moderate to hardcore PVE environments, I feel I have earned the ability to safely judge something quite quickly.

 

For example, on the nightmare spawning boss (#2 in story mode), I completely understood his tactics. I know all of my skills, and selected some great AoE kiting tools for utility. And all of that, played near flawlessly, still got me killed, still had me running in circles, and still was a zerg-fest.

First off, if burning down a boss is a zergfest, then every dungeon is a zergfest.  Having a tank keep it under control so the deeps can zerg it does not make it less different.  Becuase you aren't standing still doesn't mean moving makes it a zerg.  The word zerg is being used to loosely.  A Zerg is having numbers over the foe, just because there is five of you and one boss does not mean that you zerged him, especially if your the one constantly running from a way point. 

We'll have to disagree here - I would call running back and forth between a waypoint rez a type of zerging.

  

#2.  You are not owed anything because of your gaming experience.  Not trying to be mean but, your basically saying the dungeon should work like you are used to them working.  As I said before , most of the stuff is the same like don't stand in stuff but just because you have to move and sometimes move alot does not mean it is a zerg or that the dungeon is bad.  It is part of the mechanics.

I don't care if its 110% different then all other MMO's, you can't discount my gaming experience. Having a vast experience in MMO's does make it easier for someone, myself included, to assess a feature or area of a game faster than someone with very little experience, regardless of whether or not the MMO being evaluated brings new things to the table.

You have described the professions that came with you but you have not provided info on how those players were spec'ed.  If all of you are spec'ed as Power and Crit with no support  then your saying that the dungeon should function like the trinity without having to spec like a trinity.  Your logic doesn't work.  5 DPS players can not run a level appropriate dungeon in WOW.  So why would expect to be able to do it in GW2.    And I am not talking about weapons here.  Just because you switch to a weapon that has a heal does not make it that great.  You need the +healing stats to make them more affective.  All the power and crit gear equiped doesn't make the skill as useful.   In WOW, your healer you bring to the dungeon, can't run it in Deeps gear and your tanks can't tank in healer gear.

For one, I am running an extremely support heavy build. Two, how would you like me to see what those other players are running? There is no armory, there is no inspect.

I do under stand were you are coming from, I was pissed after completeing my first Explorable AC run (two failures before that.)  I spent more time running from a waypoint than anything else.  And I complained that it wasn't fun and was thinking they need to change it.  But after thinking about it I realized we just kept throwing ourselves at the dungeons, no coordination, no one was specced for support, and we tried to just burn everything down.   The Holy Trinity forces you to have at least one strategy for every fight.  The tank will manage boss, the dps will burn the boss down and the healer will heal.   The GW2 way doesn't force it, and its up to each player to bring things that provide for group dynamics that will make the run a much better experience.   GW2 removes the hard set roles of the trinity, however you steal need heals, dps and tanks(people that can control the boss) to survive the encounter.   I now spec as a support and I am enjoying the dungeons quite abit more. 

You complain about story mode being too hard yet you just made it through the dungeon without properly spec'ing for the dungeon.  I think thats how it should be.    Could you do that in a WOW dungeon.

You *asssume* I did not do it properly. But you don't even know what spec I am running, and by your own admition you have no idea what spec the other professions were running..... How are you then able to assess that we did it correctly or not? For the record, I am in a support and control heavy build, with appropriate gear to compliment that.

 

And just to make one thing clear,  just because everyone can rez, it doesn't mean that rezzing is effective in a dungeon.  It is fare better to help a downed player back up before they are defeated, then to try and rez a defeated player.  Don't wait for them to get defeated, get to them and get them up.  It's the most common misconception in the dungeon.  The only time you don't is if you have the aggro of the boss or the fight doesn't allow it.  Most do, the spider boss (3rd in TA) doesn't because you have to be moving the whole fight.   But I slot a utility skill that helps the group.  Elixir R helps reive downed players faster, it gives them a 20% boost in reviving for 6 secounds.   Which is another good point you can switch skills out before the fight to slot the best ones for the fight.  Don't forget to do that as well.

I actually have a trait already that makes me and the target I rez faster upon rezing. Any chance I get, I combat res someone who is in the downed state. Last time I checked, pressing F isn't strategy.

Response inline.

GW2 Trinity:

Damage - Crowd Control - Support

Having those will make dungeons much easier... though expect to still die. A lot of the difficulty isn't skill based so much as 'I hope that things CCed or you are screwed' type deals you can't really avoid. Where skill was counted for such as AoEs and the likes, I can go through with flying colors, other times (particularly trash) your just going to die, die, and die. No chance to avoid, no chance for skill to even come into play, its just a matter of you and if a mob decided to focus you and how many times you can get lucky dodging before you are out of dodges and its going to eat you alive.

Originally posted by Purutzil

GW2 Trinity:

Damage - Crowd Control - Support

 

Having those will make dungeons much easier... though expect to still die. A lot of the difficulty isn't skill based so much as 'I hope that things CCed or you are screwed' type deals you can't really avoid. Where skill was counted for such as AoEs and the likes, I can go through with flying colors, other times (particularly trash) your just going to die, die, and die. No chance to avoid, no chance for skill to even come into play, its just a matter of you and if a mob decided to focus you and how many times you can get lucky dodging before you are out of dodges and its going to eat you alive.

Agreed, and I take issue with this. I want to learn a dungeon, and be able to repeat successful results. Not "know that I am going to die sometimes".