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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » Dungeons - The Lack of the Trinity

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132 posts found
  Xasapis

Tipster

Joined: 1/12/07
Posts: 5608

9/14/12 1:51:48 AM#41

It's pretty obvious to those not in the honeymoon period that dungeoning in GW2 is a mess, which is no surprise really. You stuff 5 dps players in a dungeon with normal boss mechanics and what you get?

  1. Kitting
  2. Constant respawn fest
  3. Overgearing everything to make it meaningless.
The game was made to be played (and be fun) for the PvP component and the open world events. Dungeons are an obvious weak point, but was a necessity to be included due to what is expected as a feature list from an mmorpg.
  saurus123

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/06
Posts: 525

9/14/12 1:51:50 AM#42
Originally posted by voxnor
Originally posted by Lilan
There is a number of heal combos and life steal combos in this game learn to use them, along with CC combos like aoe blind, weakness and other damage reduceing effects

 

Please elaborate on how these combos help in the second fight of Twilight Arbror, as that has been our example thus far.

maybe this will help you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrzwFP1vCag

 

heres a list

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Combo

  voxnor

Novice Member

Joined: 8/20/12
Posts: 121

 
OP  9/14/12 1:54:15 AM#43
Originally posted by saurus123
Originally posted by voxnor
Originally posted by Lilan
There is a number of heal combos and life steal combos in this game learn to use them, along with CC combos like aoe blind, weakness and other damage reduceing effects

 

Please elaborate on how these combos help in the second fight of Twilight Arbror, as that has been our example thus far.

maybe this will help you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrzwFP1vCag

 

heres a list

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Combo

 

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, though I know you were being sarcastic.

 

I am WELL aware of what combo's are. I listed out the 5 characters in my group. Go ahead and break down for me how combo's would have made the fight better, and i'll explain how we either tried it or how it wouldn't work.

"Judge a man by his questions rather than by his answers.” - Voltaire

  Voiidiin

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/11
Posts: 827

Soylent green is made from PEOPLE

9/14/12 1:54:32 AM#44
TA is the abolute worst Dungeon to cut your teeth on, AC is a better dungeon to start out in TA needs work from ANet i think.

Lolipops !

  jondifool

Novice Member

Joined: 6/04/07
Posts: 1122

9/14/12 1:58:23 AM#45
Originally posted by voxnor

 

The point to all this is the following:

 

  1. How can / will ANet make complex, engaging encounters without the trinity?
  2. Will they ever be able to shift the emphasis to good group play and away from good individual play without the trinity?
  3. Why am I dying in story mode? I'd like to go into story mode for the, you know, story.
 
 

1. It is a myth that there is no trinity in GW2. ArenaNet specificly said that you could talk about a new trinity when describing the element in GW2 of support, control and damage. Wich is exsactly what you see in dungeouns. The fact is that there is no forced set trinity where players have to stick to 1 role each. But nothing prevents them from doing it. And for a unorganised group performance improve alot, when each member stick to a role they actual  are build around being good at. So the answer to the first question is ArenaNet don't make encounters without the trinity. (there is no "holy"trinity but thats another talk).

2. The unique twist in GW2 is, that because of the way the weapons skills are setup and everybody can ress and so on, every one will have some control and support to add to a group. The performance increase even more when players don't stick to 1 role, but shift roles on the fly, but thats the next level of team play. A place an unorganised group have a hard time to achive. I claim that groups shifting roles on the fly is still operating in a trinity model, they are just optimising it even more than when having fixed roles. At any given moment there has to be an efficent use of Control and Support abilities while dishing out damage. Thats trinity combat. The way ArenaNet is putting emphasis on good group play is to make encounter hard enough that players can learn that there is an even more efficent way to get through them, than getting stuck in the old trinity mindset. But just like the saying that you can pull an aminal to the water but cant force it to drink, there is really no way to force player to learn this if they don't want to. And then encounter stay hard, because the swapping of roles that make them more manageble don't happend.

3. Story mode where you are not dieing alot in is called personal story. Story mode in dungeouns is still dungeun difficulty. And dungeuns have to be hard in a situation where players can and will stick to a fixed trinity model, until they improve their group play.

 

read how to create a succesfull mmo before posting about GW2. And read tao of ArenaNet before talking about innovation in GW2

  azmundai

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/18/10
Posts: 1424

9/14/12 2:05:20 AM#46

comes down to a simple question for me these days, as games are taking out traditional MMO features, what are they doing to replace them? as usual, the answer is basically, nothing.

so you've removed the trinity, great concept.

what have you replaced it with? Self heals and 2 invulnerability trinkets on a short coodown. Oh, and you brought back graveyard zerging .. /facepalm

LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  Raven

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/20/06
Posts: 1987

"Only the dead have seen the end of war" Plato

9/14/12 2:05:22 AM#47
If you mean only story mode then let's disregard the rest of your post story dungeons are pretty garbage they are there to be made once and then move on to explorable I don't know why anyone would want to do them more than once. Explorable has the right difficulty and feels like they managed to add a challenge that doesn't require trinity.

Story is the weak point of this game except for tybalt everything else was garbage.

  UtukuMoon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/03/11
Posts: 1109

9/14/12 2:16:37 AM#48
Originally posted by azmundai

comes down to a simple question for me these days, as games are taking out traditional MMO features, what are they doing to replace them? as usual, the answer is basically, nothing.

so you've removed the trinity, great concept.

what have you replaced it with? Self heals and 2 invulnerability trinkets on a short coodown. Oh, and you brought back graveyard zerging .. /facepalm

Nah, credit where credits due,they done a few good things,this being one of them.

All across MMO land players are heading to the..well read below..

http://www.forbes.com/sites/carolpinchefsky/2012/09/13/four-guild-wars-2-recipes-you-can-craft-in-your-kitchen/

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8ymgFyzbDo

  voxnor

Novice Member

Joined: 8/20/12
Posts: 121

 
OP  9/14/12 2:20:51 AM#49
Originally posted by Raven
If you mean only story mode then let's disregard the rest of your post story dungeons are pretty garbage they are there to be made once and then move on to explorable I don't know why anyone would want to do them more than once. Explorable has the right difficulty and feels like they managed to add a challenge that doesn't require trinity.

Story is the weak point of this game except for tybalt everything else was garbage.

 

What do you even mean here? I am fairly slow to frustrate but your post above.. I don't even get it. Because I want to talk about story mode, we should disregard my post?

"Judge a man by his questions rather than by his answers.” - Voltaire

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16715

9/14/12 2:22:32 AM#50
Originally posted by voxnor

1) "Nasty Surprises" - So, move when red circles come. Ok. "Forcing players... instead of standing still". So, move out of red ricles. Ok....

2) "Learn to act like a team". We were acting like a team as much as any PuG will. Is your point that PuG's should not be able to complete story mode without several deaths?

3) "Green gear is not good enough" - This is a level 50 dungeon. All of us were downscaled by at least 5 levels, giving us extra traits. Are you suggesting I gear up specifically for one PuG dungeon run at level 50?

1. Nasty surprise is whenever something isnt going exactly as predicted. With no tanks that is commonplace, got a lot of them in GW1 as well.

2. In storymode? Ok, that is a bit tough for a 50 dungeon and since I wasnt there it is kinda hard for me to tell you if you did any misstakes. A good PUG should be able to clear a story dungeon without dying.

3. Listen now, blue and green gear is junk. Compare it to the 2 lowest rarity items in any other MMO, they are usually crap. I am indeed suggesting that you need better gear for a PUG dungeon. And you have played MMOs long enough to remeber when you needed good gear for a dungeon or should be prepared to die a lot.

It is a huge step between green and gold. And gold gear is not so hard to get either, most guilds have crafters that do it for mats.

And consider your build, a good build help as well. Speccing for survival instead of just max damage is usually a good idea for dungeons.

  Lilan

Novice Member

Joined: 6/26/06
Posts: 61

9/14/12 2:27:16 AM#51
Originally posted by Sylvarii
Originally posted by Lilan
There is a number of heal combos and life steal combos in this game learn to use them, along with CC combos like aoe blind, weakness and other damage reduceing effects

What this person really means OP is..

Learn to play because your doing it wrong,we haven't seen this line before have we.

Is their really heals combo's and life steal combo's and CC plus aoe blinds,weakness and last but not least,damage reducing effects?

Wow! i really didn't know that they have wtf pawns skills like that in GW2,i'm logging on now to try them out,you should do the same OP,once you have i garantee you will pawns those instance dungeons.

Thanks Lilan,ill put you on my xmas list.

 

 

Hey you seam kinda bad, dont hate the game hate the players.

  voxnor

Novice Member

Joined: 8/20/12
Posts: 121

 
OP  9/14/12 2:28:06 AM#52
Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by voxnor

1) "Nasty Surprises" - So, move when red circles come. Ok. "Forcing players... instead of standing still". So, move out of red ricles. Ok....

2) "Learn to act like a team". We were acting like a team as much as any PuG will. Is your point that PuG's should not be able to complete story mode without several deaths?

3) "Green gear is not good enough" - This is a level 50 dungeon. All of us were downscaled by at least 5 levels, giving us extra traits. Are you suggesting I gear up specifically for one PuG dungeon run at level 50?

1. Nasty surprise is whenever something isnt going exactly as predicted. With no tanks that is commonplace, got a lot of them in GW1 as well.

2. In storymode? Ok, that is a bit tough for a 50 dungeon and since I wasnt there it is kinda hard for me to tell you if you did any misstakes. A good PUG should be able to clear a story dungeon without dying.

3. Listen now, blue and green gear is junk. Compare it to the 2 lowest rarity items in any other MMO, they are usually crap. I am indeed suggesting that you need better gear for a PUG dungeon. And you have played MMOs long enough to remeber when you needed good gear for a dungeon or should be prepared to die a lot.

It is a huge step between green and gold. And gold gear is not so hard to get either, most guilds have crafters that do it for mats.

And consider your build, a good build help as well. Speccing for survival instead of just max damage is usually a good idea for dungeons.

 

1) "Nasty surprise is whenever something isn't going exactly as predicted" - Ok, so give me an example that doesn't involve more damage going out?

2) "A good PUG should be able to claer a story dungeon without dying" - So your thoughts are that me and/or my group just sucked - thanks, thats constructive.

3) "I am indeed suggesting that you need better gear for a PUG dungeon. And you have played MMO's long enough to remember when you needed good gear for a dungeon" - We'll have to agree to disagree here - in my decade of MMO's, I havn't found a need to gear up for a mid-level, non cap, 5 man content.

"Judge a man by his questions rather than by his answers.” - Voltaire

  Raven

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/20/06
Posts: 1987

"Only the dead have seen the end of war" Plato

9/14/12 2:29:22 AM#53
Sorry I can't quote on my phone. What I mean is in your post you present multiple concerns that go beyond story mode in fact you only mention story mode as a single point in your post after you show concern regarding dungeons interesting encounters and trinity. Even your thread title mentions dungeons and trinity.

My premise is simply that story mode is garbage and a mob zerg there is no challenge and you are right. The other concerns I have addressed by suggesting that if you are looking for something that requires more cooperation and is not just kite and heal that you should try explorable but as you are only interested in story mode I can't really help you they are indeed shit.

I hope they continue to focus on making more explorable challenges as I don't really care about the story as Italian there for me just to unlock explorable.

  voxnor

Novice Member

Joined: 8/20/12
Posts: 121

 
OP  9/14/12 2:33:47 AM#54
Originally posted by Raven
Sorry I can't quote on my phone. What I mean is in your post you present multiple concerns that go beyond story mode in fact you only mention story mode as a single point in your post after you show concern regarding dungeons interesting encounters and trinity. Even your thread title mentions dungeons and trinity.

My premise is simply that story mode is garbage and a mob zerg there is no challenge and you are right. The other concerns I have addressed by suggesting that if you are looking for something that requires more cooperation and is not just kite and heal that you should try explorable but as you are only interested in story mode I can't really help you they are indeed shit.

I hope they continue to focus on making more explorable challenges as I don't really care about the story as Italian there for me just to unlock explorable.

 

Allright, i'll go along with this.

 

You mention you have done explore mode content, and that it "requires more coopeartion and is not just kite and heal". In what ways does it require more cooporation? Can you describe maybe 2 or 3 fights, and the different ways in which they require more than kiting, healing, and resurrecting?

"Judge a man by his questions rather than by his answers.” - Voltaire

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16715

9/14/12 2:35:27 AM#55
Originally posted by voxnor

1) "Nasty surprise is whenever something isn't going exactly as predicted" - Ok, so give me an example that doesn't involve more damage going out?

2) "A good PUG should be able to claer a story dungeon without dying" - So your thoughts are that me and/or my group just sucked - thanks, thats constructive.

3) "I am indeed suggesting that you need better gear for a PUG dungeon. And you have played MMO's long enough to remember when you needed good gear for a dungeon" - We'll have to agree to disagree here - in my decade of MMO's, I havn't found a need to gear up for a mid-level, non cap, 5 man content.

1. Whenever a boss do something unexpected and you go "oh, crap". When you have a tank keeping an eye on him you can expect about what a boss will do.

2. That is not how I meant it, I meant that the difficulty indeed might be a bit to high in storymode. The game is just out and some balancing might be in order still, particularly for some classes. If a few classes are underpowered and you PUG have a few of them you will have a lot harder time than a group with better balanced classes.

3. Really? Never played Everquest or any of those games? Heck, you even had to do it early in EQ2 (and later if you count the skill upgrades).

  Castillle

Forum Bunny

Joined: 10/24/10
Posts: 2681

9/14/12 2:35:55 AM#56

My problem with pugsare the following

  1. Majority are glass cannons.
  2. Majority dont know how to combo.
  3. Majority splash all their fields at the same time preventing proper combo field usage.
  4. Majority dont know who to focus and arent willing to learn.
  5. Majority wastes dodges and treats them as a speed boost.
  6. Majority dont know about survival comboes or "stop hitting shit and run tehn stayon the edge of battle while poking enemies"
  7. Everyone thinks he/she is a god that can solo everything or
  8. dood thinks all he/she has to do is press 6for aoe healing every 15 or soseconds and nothing else.
 
Please stop putting fields on top of each other. Thats wasteful.
 
And for gods sake detonating clusterbomb means NO BLAST FINISHER AND NOT 3x BLAST FINISHERS IN 1 ABILITY!
 
 

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  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3356

9/14/12 2:39:14 AM#57
1 nasty surprise? That's just another way of saying you have not learned the encounters yet - no different to any other mmorg that offers more challenging ( and therefore not boring Zerg)

2. See 1 a pug will clear once the puggles in the group have enough knowledge.

3. Yes you need a level of gear, not grey, but not legendary either. Middle ground in other words.

This thread boils down to the 'it's too difficult' threads that wrecked the playability of dungeons in other games. You would be as well saying ' I expect the game to be so easy that I will clear a dungeon regardless of experience and player level'

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16715

9/14/12 2:40:25 AM#58
Originally posted by voxnor

Allright, i'll go along with this.

You mention you have done explore mode content, and that it "requires more coopeartion and is not just kite and heal". In what ways does it require more cooporation? Can you describe maybe 2 or 3 fights, and the different ways in which they require more than kiting, healing, and resurrecting?

As a thief for example, I might stealth the entire group after the adds are down, allowing us a few precious seconds of rest.  When everyone is out of steam stuff like that is what saves the day.

Of course in a PUG that might be a coordination problem, my guild is trying to use our classes specialities as best as we can.

The engineer put out his mines in certain places and we wait kite the mobs over them until the right moment and so on. Most if not all classes have stuff like that you can time together.

  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

9/14/12 2:42:21 AM#59
I personally hate the trinity, and I think the unrealistic habit of dividing the tasks into those roles has changed how people approach content. It's hard to divorce yourself from the mechanic that has dominated games for so long. If the fights are more chaotic that is a good thing to me. No plan survives contact with the enemy.

Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16715

9/14/12 2:43:43 AM#60
Originally posted by Bladestrom
1 nasty surprise? That's just another way of saying you have not learned the encounters yet - no different to any other mmorg that offers more challenging ( and therefore not boring Zerg)

2. See 1 a pug will clear once the puggles in the group have enough knowledge.

3. Yes you need a level of gear, not grey, but not legendary either. Middle ground in other words.

This thread boils down to the 'it's too difficult' threads that wrecked the playability of dungeons in other games. You would be as well saying ' I expect the game to be so easy that I will clear a dungeon regardless of experience and player level'

1. It is a lot less of that when you have real tanking, at least in 5 players dungeons.

2. It will improve things, yes.

3. Yes, as I said, gold gear is enough. Blue is crap and green is just above crap.

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