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Guild Wars 2

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General Discussion  » Dungeons - The Lack of the Trinity

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132 posts found
  voxnor

Novice Member

Joined: 8/20/12
Posts: 121

 
OP  9/14/12 12:39:51 AM#1

Just got done with my first experience in a dungeon - Twilight Arbor Story Mode on my 58 Ranger (down-scaled to 50, of course).

Group looked like this:

54 Necro

54 Warrior

58 Ranger (me)

55 Theif

80 Warrior

 

Now, I will elaborate below, but if I were to blurt out my feelings immediatly it would be "sadly dissapointed and not impressed".

 

Now for the elaboration: I have thus far been a huge fan of GW2 ( a peak at my posting history will show you as much ). And, I had high hopes for the lack of the Trinity. And yet, I can't shake this nasty feeling after my first dungeon. I found that the encounters were either point and click - or a ressurection fest.

 

What I mean by this, is that I think it was and will be very difficult for group strategy to be employed with the lack of the trinity. The second boss, for example, summons a massive amount of spider adds. Our method for handling this was running in circles, shooting the boss, dodging when not out of endurance. This caused frequent deaths - but due to the adds ressurection is not an option - so we would just run back from the spawn point and re-enter the fight in progress. This was not fun.

 

The third boss, however, while gimicky (kitty kat) was tank n' spank, without the tank! (All spank, baby)

 

The point to all this is the following:

 

  1. How can / will ANet make complex, engaging encounters without the trinity?
  2. Will they ever be able to shift the emphasis to good group play and away from good individual play without the trinity?
  3. Why am I dying in story mode? I'd like to go into story mode for the, you know, story.
 
 

"Judge a man by his questions rather than by his answers.” - Voltaire

  HeroEvermore

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/07/09
Posts: 692

Banned 18 times and counting.

9/14/12 12:44:06 AM#2

Say what? I got 4 people with me in dungeons who have rez! We all have self heals! I don't need no stinking healer! We have infinite lives ROAR! (I know what ur saying though). I do like the trinity. I like LFG for content because it helps the community engage and u meet friends you will keep longer because you can actually tell when someone is skilled and not just getn rolfpwnd by a boss that does way to much dmg.

That said: Yay for arenanet for trying something different because the Trinity though it works. Is old. My lack of interest in mmorpgs (the only genre i truly play everything of) was brought back thanks to GW2 (a game i had no faith in yet adore now).

Hero Evermore
Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  Xerith

Novice Member

Joined: 10/18/09
Posts: 972

A monkey poured coffee in my boots

9/14/12 12:50:06 AM#3

Fight in explorable mode and tell me the groups dont require team work and coordination. I'm assuming you mean the spider mobs in the Twilight Arbor dungeon which stop to explode once they reach a player. It's up to each team member to avoid those mobs, kite them when they are about to explode, and avoid kiting them into the path of another player. 

Or do what we did and have a guardian work on rounding them up and forcing them to explode in a corner. 

My guild has run through every story mode dungeon so far, we are also now working on clearing explorable Arah and a couple others. We have had to work on group synergy, skill compisitions and communication more in GW2 than any previous game. After playing the dungeons here, I can never go back to sitting there while a tank tanks and a healer heals. And this is coming from an ex WoW raiding tank. 

  voxnor

Novice Member

Joined: 8/20/12
Posts: 121

 
OP  9/14/12 12:50:35 AM#4
Originally posted by HeroEvermore

Say what? I got 4 people with me in dungeons who have rez! We all have self heals! I don't need no stinking healer! We have infinite lives ROAR! (I know what ur saying though). I do like the trinity. I like LFG for content because it helps the community engage and u meet friends you will keep longer because you can actually tell when someone is skilled and not just getn rolfpwnd by a boss that does way to much dmg.

That said: Yay for arenanet for trying something different because the Trinity though it works. Is old. My lack of interest in mmorpgs (the only genre i truly play everything of) was brought back thanks to GW2 (a game i had no faith in yet adore now).

 

Don't get me wrong - I agree that the mechanics are refreshing. I am more concerned with how they will make content that is different when they don't have the trinity to abuse? Essentially, from a content designer's standpoint - you have 5 DPS characters with self-healing, who can all battle rez.

 

I mean, what complex encounters can you do with that? How do they spice that up? If they put out too much damange, that squishy guy dies - if they make it too easy, its a 5 man zergfest. And in the end - its all about individual skill, rather than group dynamics. How do they have groups working together when both your damange and survivability are up to yourself?

"Judge a man by his questions rather than by his answers.” - Voltaire

  voxnor

Novice Member

Joined: 8/20/12
Posts: 121

 
OP  9/14/12 12:52:20 AM#5
Originally posted by Xerith

Fight in explorable mode and tell me the groups dont require team work and coordination. I'm assuming you mean the spider mobs in the Twilight Arbor dungeon which stop to explode once they reach a player. It's up to each team member to avoid those mobs, kite them when they are about to explode, and avoid kiting them into the path of another player. 

Or do what we did and have a guardian work on rounding them up and forcing them to explode in a corner. 

My guild has run through every story mode dungeon so far, we are also now working on clearing explorable Arah and a couple others. We have had to work on group synergy, skill compisitions and communication more in GW2 than any previous game. After playing the dungeons here, I can never go back to sitting there while a tank tanks and a healer heals. And this is coming from an ex WoW raiding tank. 

 

Please note - my comments weren't about *difficulty* of the content, as I havn't seen enough to express that. My questions are more rooted in story mode, and how to create content that is fun and isn't simply running in circles...

"Judge a man by his questions rather than by his answers.” - Voltaire

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16678

9/14/12 12:52:44 AM#6
Originally posted by voxnor

...

  1. How can / will ANet make complex, engaging encounters without the trinity?
  2. Will they ever be able to shift the emphasis to good group play and away from good individual play without the trinity?
  3. Why am I dying in story mode? I'd like to go into story mode for the, you know, story.

1. I dont see a problem with that, I in fact think the trinity makes combat more boring.

2. Yes, but players need to get used to playing in another way. Instead of focusing on a single thing you suddenly need to see the big picture and keep both all mobs and your coplayers in mind.

3. What do you think? Lack of gear or not enough skills yet. Get good gear and train more. I recommend that you team up with a more experienced guildie of the same class that can give you a lession. Another possibility is that you just play the wrong class, some are hader than others and might not really fit your playstyle.

Playing without trinity just take a different skill that trinity, you need to multitask and this can be tough in the beginning, but I have myself trained up our guilds noobs and they have gotten it after a few hours.

  HeroEvermore

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/07/09
Posts: 692

Banned 18 times and counting.

9/14/12 12:52:57 AM#7

If what you want is something like 40 man raids in vanilla WoW. That kind of strategy and teamwork? It will just not happen in this game. It's built to be a zergfest. Just a very different style of mmo. Much more casual. Just my 2 cents.

 

Now. In WvWvW. That's a whole different story. Having supreme cooperation in there is where you can find this kind of teamwork if you have a giant guild. (once you an actually get a guild in there at one time).

 

I just don't see the PvE in this game being able to make such intricate complex challenges because the trinity sets a very specific "This kind of group can accomplish this boss" Type of platform that we are so used to in games. I am not against the loss of this type of gameplay as I find myself being a little more casual in games despite playing them as much. Just not into doing raids for 8 hours ever again in my life.

Hero Evermore
Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  goozmania

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/18/07
Posts: 118

9/14/12 12:55:58 AM#8

I agree... I have been pretty frustrated with group play in this game. It seems as though the dungeons were designed to require a tank and healer (in some cases, multiple healers lol), and yet there are none. I've not seen a group yet that isn't a zerg (die and revive til the mob dies) or revive fest. The generic heals we (or at least warriors) get do not even account for a minute fraction of the healing required in dungeons.

I often find, also, that there is nowhere to dodge to, even when I have endurance. There are red circles literally everywhere. I'm dodging one ae right into another; and these ae's freaking destroy me, a heavy armor wearing, vitality specced warrior.

I'm sorry to offend the fanboys who were praising GW2's ending of the holy trinity (actually, I'm not at all) but they have not done so. This is just a frustrating, constant death mess. And if they simply make it easier, it'll probably be too easy and not entertaining. I cannot currently conceive of an idea to balance group content without requiring specific roles... Also, if people come in and say "a ____ build ____ can _____" then they are defeating the purpose. Turning a guardian or engineer into a makeshift healer/tank/whatever is not getting rid of the trinity lol...

  voxnor

Novice Member

Joined: 8/20/12
Posts: 121

 
OP  9/14/12 12:56:23 AM#9
Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by voxnor

...

  1. How can / will ANet make complex, engaging encounters without the trinity?
  2. Will they ever be able to shift the emphasis to good group play and away from good individual play without the trinity?
  3. Why am I dying in story mode? I'd like to go into story mode for the, you know, story.

1. I dont see a problem with that, I in fact think the trinity makes combat more boring.

2. Yes, but players need to get used to playing in another way. Instead of focusing on a single thing you suddenly need to see the big picture and keep both all mobs and your coplayers in mind.

3. What do you think? Lack of gear or not enough skills yet. Get good gear and train more. I recommend that you team up with a more experienced guildie of the same class that can give you a lession. Another possibility is that you just play the wrong class, some are hader than others and might not really fit your playstyle.

Playing without trinity just take a different skill that trinity, you need to multitask and this can be tough in the beginning, but I have myself trained up our guilds noobs and they have gotten it after a few hours.

 

1) I wasn't saying there was necessarily a problem with it - but *how* - what ideas do you have as to what they will do?

 

2) I understand its a different mindset - the question is again *how* do you force group gameplay? What types of mechanics can be used? In the trinity there is a standard rule set to be used to that end - what do we use in place here to accomplish these goals?

 

3) I appreciate the thoughts - but if you are suggesting I need to improve my level 58, green and yellow geared Ranger for a level 50 story mode dungeon... well.. Also - I play the class quite effectively, I am a 10 year MMO vet. Not bragging here, just explaining that personal skill or gear is not an issue.

"Judge a man by his questions rather than by his answers.” - Voltaire

  SteeJanz

Novice Member

Joined: 8/22/11
Posts: 346

9/14/12 12:59:34 AM#10

Wouldn't you think to be fair, you would have to give it a few runs, maybe learn the group mechanics that you may be missing.  I recognize what you are saying, death and running back is no fun if you do it a ton.  With that being said, I am finding the dungeons more and more enjoyable, after I have learned the fights and what I am suppose to do. 

Run explorable mode AC and fight Kohler (?).   At first you will die a ton, but once you get used to it you don't die nearly as much.  You also learn a very valuable lesson, in GW2 you never take your eyes of the boss.  We have been used to the tank taking care of that for us, now everyone must pay attention or you will die.  Also, you recognize that it is better to get some up from a down state before they are defeated.  You get them back up much faster.  Anyway.   It's really kind of unfair to judge a game before you understand it.  They really play the same, don't stand in stuff, avoid big damage attacks, if someone is down, do what ever you can to get the attention of the boss, understand what the boss does and how things affect them.  Some bosses are not affected by CC and stuff like that. 

 

Basically I think it is a little quick to jump to the forums to post your issue when it may just be you.  Prove it out first.  Run the dungeon multiple times, learn the fights. 

  HeroEvermore

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/07/09
Posts: 692

Banned 18 times and counting.

9/14/12 1:00:06 AM#11
Personally I do not mind dying repeatedly in a dungeon and respawning. Sure it's kind of silly but me and my friends just laugh our butts off because lets face it (im a warrior). I am the squishest warrior alive and aoe kills me over and over but at LEAST I LOOK GOOD NAKED WHEN IM FIGHTING :P

Hero Evermore
Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  voxnor

Novice Member

Joined: 8/20/12
Posts: 121

 
OP  9/14/12 1:00:10 AM#12
Originally posted by goozmania

I agree... I have been pretty frustrated with group play in this game. It seems as though the dungeons were designed to require a tank and healer (in some cases, multiple healers lol), and yet there are none. I've not seen a group yet that isn't a zerg (die and revive til the mob dies) or revive fest. The generic heals we (or at least warriors) get do not even account for a minute fraction of the healing required in dungeons.

I often find, also, that there is nowhere to dodge to, even when I have endurance. There are red circles literally everywhere. I'm dodging one ae right into another; and these ae's freaking destroy me, a heavy armor wearing, vitality specced warrior.

I'm sorry to offend the fanboys who were praising GW2's ending of the holy trinity (actually, I'm not at all) but they have not done so. This is just a frustrating, constant death mess. And if they simply make it easier, it'll probably be too easy and not entertaining. I cannot currently conceive of an idea to balance group content without requiring specific roles... Also, if people come in and say "a ____ build ____ can _____" then they are defeating the purpose. Turning a guardian or engineer into a makeshift healer/tank/whatever is not getting rid of the trinity lol...

 

This is EXACTLY the point I am driving at. I cannot concieve it either - and I am pleading for someone hear to share some ideas. I am not saying their aren't any - but I fear there may not be.

"Judge a man by his questions rather than by his answers.” - Voltaire

  voxnor

Novice Member

Joined: 8/20/12
Posts: 121

 
OP  9/14/12 1:03:36 AM#13
Originally posted by SteeJanz

Wouldn't you think to be fair, you would have to give it a few runs, maybe learn the group mechanics that you may be missing.  I recognize what you are saying, death and running back is no fun if you do it a ton.  With that being said, I am finding the dungeons more and more enjoyable, after I have learned the fights and what I am suppose to do. 

Run explorable mode AC and fight Kohler (?).   At first you will die a ton, but once you get used to it you don't die nearly as much.  You also learn a very valuable lesson, in GW2 you never take your eyes of the boss.  We have been used to the tank taking care of that for us, now everyone must pay attention or you will die.  Also, you recognize that it is better to get some up from a down state before they are defeated.  You get them back up much faster.  Anyway.   It's really kind of unfair to judge a game before you understand it.  They really play the same, don't stand in stuff, avoid big damage attacks, if someone is down, do what ever you can to get the attention of the boss, understand what the boss does and how things affect them.  Some bosses are not affected by CC and stuff like that. 

 

Basically I think it is a little quick to jump to the forums to post your issue when it may just be you.  Prove it out first.  Run the dungeon multiple times, learn the fights. 

 

I can understand your recomendations - and were I not me, I would think it was sound advice. But as someone with 10 years in MMO's, most of them in moderate to hardcore PVE environments, I feel I have earned the ability to safely judge something quite quickly.

 

For example, on the nightmare spawning boss (#2 in story mode), I completely understood his tactics. I know all of my skills, and selected some great AoE kiting tools for utility. And all of that, played near flawlessly, still got me killed, still had me running in circles, and still was a zerg-fest.

"Judge a man by his questions rather than by his answers.” - Voltaire

  Siphaed

Elite Member

Joined: 1/17/08
Posts: 779

9/14/12 1:10:52 AM#14
Originally posted by voxnor

Just got done with my first experience in a dungeon - Twilight Arbor Story Mode on my 58 Ranger (down-scaled to 50, of course).

Group looked like this:

54 Necro

54 Warrior

58 Ranger (me)

55 Theif

80 Warrior

 

Now, I will elaborate below, but if I were to blurt out my feelings immediatly it would be "sadly dissapointed and not impressed".

 

Now for the elaboration: I have thus far been a huge fan of GW2 ( a peak at my posting history will show you as much ). And, I had high hopes for the lack of the Trinity. And yet, I can't shake this nasty feeling after my first dungeon. I found that the encounters were either point and click - or a ressurection fest.

 

What I mean by this, is that I think it was and will be very difficult for group strategy to be employed with the lack of the trinity. The second boss, for example, summons a massive amount of spider adds. Our method for handling this was running in circles, shooting the boss, dodging when not out of endurance. This caused frequent deaths - but due to the adds ressurection is not an option - so we would just run back from the spawn point and re-enter the fight in progress. This was not fun.

 

The third boss, however, while gimicky (kitty kat) was tank n' spank, without the tank! (All spank, baby)

 

The point to all this is the following:

 

  1. How can / will ANet make complex, engaging encounters without the trinity?
  2. Will they ever be able to shift the emphasis to good group play and away from good individual play without the trinity?
  3. Why am I dying in story mode? I'd like to go into story mode for the, you know, story.
 
 

First off, your problem was "Let's just nuke the boss and ignore the adds".  That's a poor strategy and nothing to do with groups needing tanks/heals/DPS trinity.

 

   Instead, it has to do with assigning the group AOE attackers to spam AOE's that apply CONDITIONS to slowly get rid of the adds.  In this case, you had a Necromancer. They can place a lot of AOE's that apply poison conditions and even a fear.  By doing a blend of these, the adds become a non-issue. 

  voxnor

Novice Member

Joined: 8/20/12
Posts: 121

 
OP  9/14/12 1:12:24 AM#15
Originally posted by Siphaed
Originally posted by voxnor

Just got done with my first experience in a dungeon - Twilight Arbor Story Mode on my 58 Ranger (down-scaled to 50, of course).

Group looked like this:

54 Necro

54 Warrior

58 Ranger (me)

55 Theif

80 Warrior

 

Now, I will elaborate below, but if I were to blurt out my feelings immediatly it would be "sadly dissapointed and not impressed".

 

Now for the elaboration: I have thus far been a huge fan of GW2 ( a peak at my posting history will show you as much ). And, I had high hopes for the lack of the Trinity. And yet, I can't shake this nasty feeling after my first dungeon. I found that the encounters were either point and click - or a ressurection fest.

 

What I mean by this, is that I think it was and will be very difficult for group strategy to be employed with the lack of the trinity. The second boss, for example, summons a massive amount of spider adds. Our method for handling this was running in circles, shooting the boss, dodging when not out of endurance. This caused frequent deaths - but due to the adds ressurection is not an option - so we would just run back from the spawn point and re-enter the fight in progress. This was not fun.

 

The third boss, however, while gimicky (kitty kat) was tank n' spank, without the tank! (All spank, baby)

 

The point to all this is the following:

 

  1. How can / will ANet make complex, engaging encounters without the trinity?
  2. Will they ever be able to shift the emphasis to good group play and away from good individual play without the trinity?
  3. Why am I dying in story mode? I'd like to go into story mode for the, you know, story.
 
 

First off, your problem was "Let's just nuke the boss and ignore the adds".  That's a poor strategy and nothing to do with groups needing tanks/heals/DPS trinity.

 

   Instead, it has to do with assigning the group AOE attackers to spam AOE's that apply CONDITIONS to slowly get rid of the adds.  In this case, you had a Necromancer. They can place a lot of AOE's that apply poison conditions and even a fear.  By doing a blend of these, the adds become a non-issue. 

 

What AoE's are you referring to? Our Necro was not staff based.

 

I provide a few AoEs, all on very length CD's and not castable while moving. When we attempted a strategy of killing the adds - it went very, very poorly.

"Judge a man by his questions rather than by his answers.” - Voltaire

  cura

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/24/04
Posts: 867

9/14/12 1:12:50 AM#16

Im sure they could make much more complex scenarios, but im not sure if they would be to your taste.

I never liked trinity, putting it mildly, and i saw all theese, so called, strategies to be more of a tasks lists. There was no room for improvisation. Boring as hell. Besieds, to be honest, If average 14 yo can learn it, it aint strategy.

  lathaan

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/02/04
Posts: 478

9/14/12 1:13:43 AM#17
Originally posted by voxnor

Just got done with my first experience in a dungeon - Twilight Arbor Story Mode on my 58 Ranger (down-scaled to 50, of course).

Group looked like this:

54 Necro

54 Warrior

58 Ranger (me)

55 Theif

80 Warrior

 

Now, I will elaborate below, but if I were to blurt out my feelings immediatly it would be "sadly dissapointed and not impressed".

 

Now for the elaboration: I have thus far been a huge fan of GW2 ( a peak at my posting history will show you as much ). And, I had high hopes for the lack of the Trinity. And yet, I can't shake this nasty feeling after my first dungeon. I found that the encounters were either point and click - or a ressurection fest.

 

What I mean by this, is that I think it was and will be very difficult for group strategy to be employed with the lack of the trinity. The second boss, for example, summons a massive amount of spider adds. Our method for handling this was running in circles, shooting the boss, dodging when not out of endurance. This caused frequent deaths - but due to the adds ressurection is not an option - so we would just run back from the spawn point and re-enter the fight in progress. This was not fun.

 

The third boss, however, while gimicky (kitty kat) was tank n' spank, without the tank! (All spank, baby)

 

The point to all this is the following:

 

  1. How can / will ANet make complex, engaging encounters without the trinity?
  2. Will they ever be able to shift the emphasis to good group play and away from good individual play without the trinity?
  3. Why am I dying in story mode? I'd like to go into story mode for the, you know, story.
 
 

most people that call the trinity (=tank and spank) a "tactic" will need YEARS to adopt to the real strategy that is needed in GW2 dungeons. they are great, but you need to work together - thats what people unlearned over the years ... i tried to pug a dungeon once. 2 out of 5 members had never heard of the combo system, none of them was familiar to the term smoke/blindness-tanking. go figure.

  voxnor

Novice Member

Joined: 8/20/12
Posts: 121

 
OP  9/14/12 1:15:04 AM#18
Originally posted by cura

Im sure they could make much more complex scenarios, but im not sure if they would be to your taste.

I never liked trinity, putting it mildly, and i saw all theese, so called, strategies to be more of a tasks lists. There was no room for improvisation. Boring as hell. Besieds, to be honest, If average 14 yo can learn it, it aint strategy.

 

I'm confused by your response? Strategies using the trinity are "14 year old simple" as you say. And so you want no strategy at all? Or are you suggesting that GW 2 strategy is more in depth?

"Judge a man by his questions rather than by his answers.” - Voltaire

  voxnor

Novice Member

Joined: 8/20/12
Posts: 121

 
OP  9/14/12 1:16:20 AM#19
Originally posted by lathaan
Originally posted by voxnor

 

 

most people that call the trinity (=tank and spank) a "tactic" will need YEARS to adopt to the real strategy that is needed in GW2 dungeons. they are great, but you need to work together - thats what people unlearned over the years ... i tried to pug a dungeon once. 2 out of 5 members had never heard of the combo system, none of them was familiar to the term smoke/blindness-tanking. go figure.

 

While I want to agree - the fight mechanics I saw didn't lend to this. If we may nit-pick - what combo system would have made the nightmare boss less of a zerg fest?

"Judge a man by his questions rather than by his answers.” - Voltaire

  KoreanSoWhat

Novice Member

Joined: 7/28/12
Posts: 93

9/14/12 1:18:39 AM#20
Originally posted by voxnor
Originally posted by SteeJanz

Wouldn't you think to be fair, you would have to give it a few runs, maybe learn the group mechanics that you may be missing.  I recognize what you are saying, death and running back is no fun if you do it a ton.  With that being said, I am finding the dungeons more and more enjoyable, after I have learned the fights and what I am suppose to do. 

Run explorable mode AC and fight Kohler (?).   At first you will die a ton, but once you get used to it you don't die nearly as much.  You also learn a very valuable lesson, in GW2 you never take your eyes of the boss.  We have been used to the tank taking care of that for us, now everyone must pay attention or you will die.  Also, you recognize that it is better to get some up from a down state before they are defeated.  You get them back up much faster.  Anyway.   It's really kind of unfair to judge a game before you understand it.  They really play the same, don't stand in stuff, avoid big damage attacks, if someone is down, do what ever you can to get the attention of the boss, understand what the boss does and how things affect them.  Some bosses are not affected by CC and stuff like that. 

 

Basically I think it is a little quick to jump to the forums to post your issue when it may just be you.  Prove it out first.  Run the dungeon multiple times, learn the fights. 

 

I can understand your recomendations - and were I not me, I would think it was sound advice. But as someone with 10 years in MMO's, most of them in moderate to hardcore PVE environments, I feel I have earned the ability to safely judge something quite quickly.

 

For example, on the nightmare spawning boss (#2 in story mode), I completely understood his tactics. I know all of my skills, and selected some great AoE kiting tools for utility. And all of that, played near flawlessly, still got me killed, still had me running in circles, and still was a zerg-fest.

 

It is just plain simple. Balance/System of Guild War 2 Dungeons is broken at this moment. Don't even try to deny it because it is a cold fact. 

People who have experience in rpg, or mmorpg, or any kind of games whatsoever feel it is not fun, and is obviously imbalanced.

Ex) most explorer mode is even easier than most story modes. STUPID. (And it is because they didn't balance level adjustment system well enough, more like they screwed it up.)

 

Wait till they fix it. or Walk away just like me.

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