Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Lethargic_Synapse

Didn't bother reading the first 7 pages so I'll just chime in @ the OP:

 

I don't think that it's the fault of the players as much as it is the fault of the current design of games itself.  As you said, games used to be tougher, and require groups to do anything.  Furthermore the groups had to consist of players that KNEW their role and how to play it, with less "wiggle room" than many games seem to have now except in the toughest raids.  Because players can simply jump in and out of short-term "relationships", if you will, with other players, there's less of an inclination to develop a lasting friendly relationship with that person.  Not to say it doesn't happen, but it's not as important as it once was.

 

This is why I'm so for the creation of new iterations of the EQ/FFXI model, where groups were an absolute necessity.

 

This is why I kinda "blamed" it on the players in the OP, because as far as I'm concerned its the players that want the game to become easier, Hell even on this forum which probably has the most "hardcore" mmo players in one room, there are still people that cry that the games are to hard.

Everyone says its the devs fault or that game need to be harder, but when you nail them down on specifics it goes like this..

1:"you want the game harder?"

2:"yes! they are way to easy now"

 

1:"Ok lets make it so there is no instant travel"

2:"whoa lets not do that...its not making the game any harder, and who has 3 hours to travel to the frost lands?"

 

1:"ok...how about making it so you have to be forced grouped"

2:"uhmm how about no, I want to be able to get on and off in a hour or less"

 

1:"fine, what about a steep leveling curve?"

2:"yeah no thanks, GW5 and SWTORMOROGO are coming out in a few months...so I'd like to be done with it by then"

 

 

And it goes on and on, my point is.. I really think its the players fault we have the current mmo situation. And like I said in my OP I feel its because everyone is in a rush now, no one wants a 30 second cooldown after a fight.. its go go go! and even with the WAY faster action MMO's that are out now, there are still people shouting for the live action call of duty stuff.

 

Anyways this is all IMO..

 

P.S. on a side note, one term or phrase i've seen more and more as of late, and happen to agree with. "we have to many gamers in the wrong genre"

which I do beleive is the biggest problem with MMO's and why I dislike WoW, I think WoW's a decent game, but the fans it brought into the genre I do not care for at all.

 

And yes I would LOVE to see another FFXI -ish mmo.

I agree completely with you as well.  I'm hoping the new FFXIV patch will be amazing.  Been waiting forever for it...  It's supposed to still be a lot more solo friendly than FFXI (what isn't) but I figure it's worth a shot.

If it sucks, I'm considering going back to FFXI actually.

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Lethargic_Synapse

Didn't bother reading the first 7 pages so I'll just chime in @ the OP:

 

I don't think that it's the fault of the players as much as it is the fault of the current design of games itself.  As you said, games used to be tougher, and require groups to do anything.  Furthermore the groups had to consist of players that KNEW their role and how to play it, with less "wiggle room" than many games seem to have now except in the toughest raids.  Because players can simply jump in and out of short-term "relationships", if you will, with other players, there's less of an inclination to develop a lasting friendly relationship with that person.  Not to say it doesn't happen, but it's not as important as it once was.

 

This is why I'm so for the creation of new iterations of the EQ/FFXI model, where groups were an absolute necessity.

 

This is why I kinda "blamed" it on the players in the OP, because as far as I'm concerned its the players that want the game to become easier, Hell even on this forum which probably has the most "hardcore" mmo players in one room, there are still people that cry that the games are to hard.

Everyone says its the devs fault or that game need to be harder, but when you nail them down on specifics it goes like this..

1:"you want the game harder?"

2:"yes! they are way to easy now"

 

1:"Ok lets make it so there is no instant travel"

2:"whoa lets not do that...its not making the game any harder, and who has 3 hours to travel to the frost lands?"

 

1:"ok...how about making it so you have to be forced grouped"

2:"uhmm how about no, I want to be able to get on and off in a hour or less"

 

1:"fine, what about a steep leveling curve?"

2:"yeah no thanks, GW5 and SWTORMOROGO are coming out in a few months...so I'd like to be done with it by then"

 

 

And it goes on and on, my point is.. I really think its the players fault we have the current mmo situation. And like I said in my OP I feel its because everyone is in a rush now, no one wants a 30 second cooldown after a fight.. its go go go! and even with the WAY faster action MMO's that are out now, there are still people shouting for the live action call of duty stuff.

 

Anyways this is all IMO..

 

P.S. on a side note, one term or phrase i've seen more and more as of late, and happen to agree with. "we have to many gamers in the wrong genre"

which I do beleive is the biggest problem with MMO's and why I dislike WoW, I think WoW's a decent game, but the fans it brought into the genre I do not care for at all.

 

And yes I would LOVE to see another FFXI -ish mmo.

Great OP and again very well put in quote above.

In red: I've been saying this for a long time now and in less than polite manner ( imo they don't deserve it) . Yup, I'm sick of these people.

Originally posted by Demogorgon

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Lethargic_Synapse

Didn't bother reading the first 7 pages so I'll just chime in @ the OP:

 

I don't think that it's the fault of the players as much as it is the fault of the current design of games itself.  As you said, games used to be tougher, and require groups to do anything.  Furthermore the groups had to consist of players that KNEW their role and how to play it, with less "wiggle room" than many games seem to have now except in the toughest raids.  Because players can simply jump in and out of short-term "relationships", if you will, with other players, there's less of an inclination to develop a lasting friendly relationship with that person.  Not to say it doesn't happen, but it's not as important as it once was.

 

This is why I'm so for the creation of new iterations of the EQ/FFXI model, where groups were an absolute necessity.

 

This is why I kinda "blamed" it on the players in the OP, because as far as I'm concerned its the players that want the game to become easier, Hell even on this forum which probably has the most "hardcore" mmo players in one room, there are still people that cry that the games are to hard.

Everyone says its the devs fault or that game need to be harder, but when you nail them down on specifics it goes like this..

1:"you want the game harder?"

2:"yes! they are way to easy now"

 

1:"Ok lets make it so there is no instant travel"

2:"whoa lets not do that...its not making the game any harder, and who has 3 hours to travel to the frost lands?"

 

1:"ok...how about making it so you have to be forced grouped"

2:"uhmm how about no, I want to be able to get on and off in a hour or less"

 

1:"fine, what about a steep leveling curve?"

2:"yeah no thanks, GW5 and SWTORMOROGO are coming out in a few months...so I'd like to be done with it by then"

 

 

And it goes on and on, my point is.. I really think its the players fault we have the current mmo situation. And like I said in my OP I feel its because everyone is in a rush now, no one wants a 30 second cooldown after a fight.. its go go go! and even with the WAY faster action MMO's that are out now, there are still people shouting for the live action call of duty stuff.

 

Anyways this is all IMO..

 

P.S. on a side note, one term or phrase i've seen more and more as of late, and happen to agree with. "we have to many gamers in the wrong genre"

which I do beleive is the biggest problem with MMO's and why I dislike WoW, I think WoW's a decent game, but the fans it brought into the genre I do not care for at all.

 

And yes I would LOVE to see another FFXI -ish mmo.

Great OP and again very well put in quote above.

In red: I've been saying this for a long time now and in less than polite manner ( imo they don't deserve it) . Yup, I'm sick of these people.

I agree also, but only to a point.  I don't think it's the wrong genre per say for these players, simply the wrong games (or rather the games are being made to cater mainly to these people instead of the hardcores that started the industry).  There was a debate about this in another thread but I'm of the opinion that devs should make two types of MMORPGs...  Teddy bear "easy mode" MMORPGs, and the harder, time-intensive, group-required variety that the classic MMO'ers remember fondly and keep crying out for.