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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Socializing getting the shaft, from us the players?

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144 posts found
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

9/16/12 12:56:12 PM#101
I see another anti pvp rant above:

Most of these old games that had better community are more pvp driven than these wow clones.

The only one of the old timers that was heavily pve was EQ and that had a worse community than the likes of daoc and uo. Bad community, elitist jerk types started with EQ, its those guys that went into populate wow and what have you.
  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 2706

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

9/17/12 12:55:24 AM#102

Most socialization occurs during "downtime." Games today just do not have downtime. You instantly heal after every fight and queue up for group content and go. People seldom sit and chat anymore.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Terranah

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/03/04
Posts: 3609

9/17/12 1:03:41 AM#103
In SWG my characters had their little lives and my friends had theirs.  Roleplay just seemed to come naturally on account of how the game was designed, and socializing naturally followed.  I haven't had much cause for socializing since, or at least not to the same degree.  I think most mmo these days are not designed for socializing beyond the utilitarian.
  Tardcore

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/13/09
Posts: 2370

"A strange game. The only winning move is not to post."

9/17/12 1:13:06 AM#104
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Most socialization occurs during "downtime." Games today just do not have downtime. You instantly heal after every fight and queue up for group content and go. People seldom sit and chat anymore.

Yeah I think this pretty much nails it. People are just caught up in the game rush. More and more developers adding solocentric, or at least smaller more focused group content has sent the social portion of these games into a tighter and tighter spiral, where any interaction with the majorty of other players isn't needed anymore. Well at least until you need some warm bodies to PUG a dungeon, but most games haved added tools to turn even that experience into a completely non-personal one.

 

It seems as more companies "streamline" MMOs they start to resemble certain "other" types of games, and the community seems to be mutating with them.

 

<CLICKY>

"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "

  Freezzo

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/28/12
Posts: 228

9/17/12 6:15:31 AM#105

So lets take a recent example. Just this friday I decided to pick up GW2 and when the installation was done I jumped into the game. At every dynamic event, heart, wherever I saw people I said "Hi." or "Enjoying the game?". Aside from a few random yes/hi answers nobody even stopped to talk.

If you want socialisation you have to seek it out is what I read a lot here. Talking to other players doesn't seem to work. Talking in map (area) chat doesn't seem to work either, because of LFG spam. Looking for a guild that's not just massive in size, but focused on a smaller group (below the 40 people mark) are rare. I ended up transfering servers because I found out some friends from other games were playing there. I remember the days where people talked to one another, asked to group/play together (as grouping is just the formality) and actually wanted to meet people in these games...

I think quite a lot has to do with the pacing of the game. GW2 is a fast game. You go in, do stuff, you're done. A themepark. I play it my way and press the walk button, enjoy the environment, want to chat to other people and have fun with others in a game. I detest single player games, not because they're bad, but because I like playing with or against other people. If a game is entertaining and there's a lot of nice/social people around then I will have fun and so will they.

Also on a sidenote: The first MMORPG I played was a korean grindfest, but I played it for a long time because all of the active playerbase knew eachother. You had a reputation, guilds had reputations and even hate (world boss killstealing and all that), but at least there was a community where people knew eachother. Also the better xp when in a group helped, but you did need a full group of 7 for it to get the xp bonus. (about 5x kill speed for 80% of xp per kill, which is huge for a grind game)

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." - John F. Kennedy
And for MMORPGs ever so true...

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18365

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

9/17/12 6:57:07 AM#106
Originally posted by Tardcore
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Most socialization occurs during "downtime." Games today just do not have downtime. You instantly heal after every fight and queue up for group content and go. People seldom sit and chat anymore.

Yeah I think this pretty much nails it. People are just caught up in the game rush. More and more developers adding solocentric, or at least smaller more focused group content has sent the social portion of these games into a tighter and tighter spiral, where any interaction with the majorty of other players isn't needed anymore. Well at least until you need some warm bodies to PUG a dungeon, but most games haved added tools to turn even that experience into a completely non-personal one.

 

It seems as more companies "streamline" MMOs they start to resemble certain "other" types of games, and the community seems to be mutating with them.

 

You are correct, this does nail it, it' s not really the players so much as the game mechanics themselves, they just don't permit time for socialization, at least outside of the voice chat you might have going on with your guildmates. (and even then).

Apparently this is what the majority of the player base wanted, but if so I can't figure out why they all leave so quickly after just a few months. (OK, welll maybe that's what they wanted too, a quick in and out experience.)

Until they slow the pacing down some, socialization in MMO's isn't likely to return anytime soon, everyone is just too busy "playing the game", which is what they prefer these days it seems.

 

"The discrepancy between what we know is possible and what we currently have to choose from is beyond disappointing" - GeezerGamer
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11358

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

9/17/12 7:39:48 AM#107
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Most socialization occurs during "downtime." Games today just do not have downtime. You instantly heal after every fight and queue up for group content and go. People seldom sit and chat anymore.

How do you explain UO?

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

9/17/12 8:02:03 AM#108
Originally posted by Dewm

But nowdays everything is so fast paced, you join a random group, 1-2minutes.. you get auto transported to the begenning on the dungeon, you zone in...start kiling stuff and all of the skills happen so fast and have fast enough of a cooldown that not many people chat and there is no communications, which not only leads to less socializing but also less communications leads to more mistakes = more disasters.. frustration etc..

so I guess I'm wondering what your opinion is.

Sometimes, people begin to talk despite all of the barriers placed in their way.

Maybe it's time we stopped blaming corporations for (literally) everything.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  TobiasGrey

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/12/12
Posts: 170

9/17/12 8:14:13 AM#109
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Dewm

But nowdays everything is so fast paced, you join a random group, 1-2minutes.. you get auto transported to the begenning on the dungeon, you zone in...start kiling stuff and all of the skills happen so fast and have fast enough of a cooldown that not many people chat and there is no communications, which not only leads to less socializing but also less communications leads to more mistakes = more disasters.. frustration etc..

so I guess I'm wondering what your opinion is.

Sometimes, people begin to talk despite all of the barriers placed in their way.

Maybe it's time we stopped blaming corporations for (literally) everything.

Maybe it's time we start to realize that game mechanics have an impact on how people play a game?

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11358

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

9/17/12 8:20:45 AM#110
Originally posted by TobiasGrey
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Dewm

But nowdays everything is so fast paced, you join a random group, 1-2minutes.. you get auto transported to the begenning on the dungeon, you zone in...start kiling stuff and all of the skills happen so fast and have fast enough of a cooldown that not many people chat and there is no communications, which not only leads to less socializing but also less communications leads to more mistakes = more disasters.. frustration etc..

so I guess I'm wondering what your opinion is.

Sometimes, people begin to talk despite all of the barriers placed in their way.

Maybe it's time we stopped blaming corporations for (literally) everything.

Maybe it's time we start to realize that game mechanics have an impact on how people play a game?

If your argument is that they should have more locations, tool and resources for social interaction, then I agree.

If your argument is that the game has a regular cadence of progression and without forcing people to pause they will just run in their exercise wheel til they pass out, then I disagree - that's a people issue.

 

  Slampig

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 2372

Whatever you do, do NOT speak ill of Asheron's Call 2...

9/17/12 8:23:16 AM#111

It is totally the fault of the players, and the newer generation of players that came into the genre after WoW got so huge. I see this influx of gamers that came from the consoles and first-person shooters. They were used to quick deathmatches and that type of gameplay and carried it into the MMORPGs that we love.

To blame the game mechanics is goofey. The games  don't keep people from saying hello while in a group. I seem to always find time to do that when I group up. It is laziness from the players that brings this type of thread about.

That's my take on the subject, so whatever.

That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

  TobiasGrey

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/12/12
Posts: 170

9/17/12 8:25:06 AM#112
Originally posted by Slampig

It is totally the fault of the players, and the newer generation of players that came into the genre after WoW got so huge. I see this influx of gamers that came from the consoles and first-person shooters. They were used to quick deathmatches and that type of gameplay and carried it into the MMORPGs that we love.

To blame the game mechanics is goofey. The games  don't keep people from saying hello while in a group. I seem to always find time to do that when I group up. It is laziness from the players that brings this type of thread about.

That's my take on the subject, so whatever.

Your lack of understanding and perspective is astounding.

It's basic human nature to take the easy way out. When games provide that easy way, even social players will take it sometime. Not everyone is made of stone.

However, if a game is social, it will encourage other social players to join it, and a community will form.

You blame the people, ok... anti social games attract the anti social people. The social people go to the social games.

So it IS based on the mechanics.

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11358

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

9/17/12 8:27:20 AM#113
Originally posted by TobiasGrey
Originally posted by Slampig

It is totally the fault of the players, and the newer generation of players that came into the genre after WoW got so huge. I see this influx of gamers that came from the consoles and first-person shooters. They were used to quick deathmatches and that type of gameplay and carried it into the MMORPGs that we love.

To blame the game mechanics is goofey. The games  don't keep people from saying hello while in a group. I seem to always find time to do that when I group up. It is laziness from the players that brings this type of thread about.

That's my take on the subject, so whatever.

Your lack of understanding and perspective is astounding.

It's basic human nature to take the easy way out. When games provide that easy way, even social players will take it sometime. Not everyone is made of stone.

However, if a game is social, it will encourage other social players to join it, and a community will form.

You blame the people, ok... anti social games attract the anti social people. The social people go to the social games.

So it IS based on the mechanics.

Can you explain what you mean by "if a game is social"?

  TobiasGrey

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/12/12
Posts: 170

9/17/12 8:31:24 AM#114
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by TobiasGrey
Originally posted by Slampig

It is totally the fault of the players, and the newer generation of players that came into the genre after WoW got so huge. I see this influx of gamers that came from the consoles and first-person shooters. They were used to quick deathmatches and that type of gameplay and carried it into the MMORPGs that we love.

To blame the game mechanics is goofey. The games  don't keep people from saying hello while in a group. I seem to always find time to do that when I group up. It is laziness from the players that brings this type of thread about.

That's my take on the subject, so whatever.

Your lack of understanding and perspective is astounding.

It's basic human nature to take the easy way out. When games provide that easy way, even social players will take it sometime. Not everyone is made of stone.

However, if a game is social, it will encourage other social players to join it, and a community will form.

You blame the people, ok... anti social games attract the anti social people. The social people go to the social games.

So it IS based on the mechanics.

Can you explain what you mean by "if a game is social"?

If a game is built around players working together, be it with crafting, housing, dungeons, general PvE and survivability, it will

a) attract people that enjoy that kind of socializing

b) it'll mold other people playing the game into being more social, because it's more beneficial for them to be social

When a game gives you the same or better rewards for NOT socializing... no social atmosphere will take root, because it doesn't need to.

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11358

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

9/17/12 8:44:06 AM#115
Originally posted by TobiasGrey
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by TobiasGrey
Originally posted by Slampig

It is totally the fault of the players, and the newer generation of players that came into the genre after WoW got so huge. I see this influx of gamers that came from the consoles and first-person shooters. They were used to quick deathmatches and that type of gameplay and carried it into the MMORPGs that we love.

To blame the game mechanics is goofey. The games  don't keep people from saying hello while in a group. I seem to always find time to do that when I group up. It is laziness from the players that brings this type of thread about.

That's my take on the subject, so whatever.

Your lack of understanding and perspective is astounding.

It's basic human nature to take the easy way out. When games provide that easy way, even social players will take it sometime. Not everyone is made of stone.

However, if a game is social, it will encourage other social players to join it, and a community will form.

You blame the people, ok... anti social games attract the anti social people. The social people go to the social games.

So it IS based on the mechanics.

Can you explain what you mean by "if a game is social"?

If a game is built around players working together, be it with crafting, housing, dungeons, general PvE and survivability, it will

a) attract people that enjoy that kind of socializing

b) it'll mold other people playing the game into being more social, because it's more beneficial for them to be social

When a game gives you the same or better rewards for NOT socializing... no social atmosphere will take root, because it doesn't need to.

So it's the Grouping = Socializing argument. I guess that could work, however it's never been seen to extend any level of socializing beyond the guild/clan unit.

 

  TobiasGrey

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/12/12
Posts: 170

9/17/12 8:50:09 AM#116
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by TobiasGrey
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by TobiasGrey
Originally posted by Slampig

It is totally the fault of the players, and the newer generation of players that came into the genre after WoW got so huge. I see this influx of gamers that came from the consoles and first-person shooters. They were used to quick deathmatches and that type of gameplay and carried it into the MMORPGs that we love.

To blame the game mechanics is goofey. The games  don't keep people from saying hello while in a group. I seem to always find time to do that when I group up. It is laziness from the players that brings this type of thread about.

That's my take on the subject, so whatever.

Your lack of understanding and perspective is astounding.

It's basic human nature to take the easy way out. When games provide that easy way, even social players will take it sometime. Not everyone is made of stone.

However, if a game is social, it will encourage other social players to join it, and a community will form.

You blame the people, ok... anti social games attract the anti social people. The social people go to the social games.

So it IS based on the mechanics.

Can you explain what you mean by "if a game is social"?

If a game is built around players working together, be it with crafting, housing, dungeons, general PvE and survivability, it will

a) attract people that enjoy that kind of socializing

b) it'll mold other people playing the game into being more social, because it's more beneficial for them to be social

When a game gives you the same or better rewards for NOT socializing... no social atmosphere will take root, because it doesn't need to.

So it's the Grouping = Socializing argument. I guess that could work, however it's never been seen to extend any level of socializing beyond the guild/clan unit.

Have you ever played an MMO before WoW? In DAoC, the primary form of grouping was with PUGs. There were occasional guild events, but since there was no instancing and you benefitted from working with others more than by yourself, people socialized.

And no, its not the "grouping = socializing" argument. It's the "if there are game mechanics that reward people for working together in ANY capacity, there is the groundwork for socializing" argument.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

9/17/12 8:51:51 AM#117
Originally posted by Loktofeit

So it's the Grouping = Socializing argument. I guess that could work, however it's never been seen to extend any level of socializing beyond the guild/clan unit.

Really? I read it as the "co-dependency = socializing", ala EQ1.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  TobiasGrey

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/12/12
Posts: 170

9/17/12 8:56:53 AM#118
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Loktofeit

So it's the Grouping = Socializing argument. I guess that could work, however it's never been seen to extend any level of socializing beyond the guild/clan unit.

Really? I read it as the "co-dependency = socializing", ala EQ1.

Co-dependency is not the same as giving better rewards for doing things as a group. In DAoC you could solo all you wanted, but it wasn't going to be as fast as grouping. Grouping is a much harder thing to do, so by design it should yield a greater reward, or people won't do it, and then the feature will vanish for those that like it. It happened in DAoC after they added /level 20 and kill tasks to the game.

  Kyleran

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Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18365

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9/17/12 9:00:31 AM#119
Originally posted by TobiasGrey
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Loktofeit

So it's the Grouping = Socializing argument. I guess that could work, however it's never been seen to extend any level of socializing beyond the guild/clan unit.

Really? I read it as the "co-dependency = socializing", ala EQ1.

Co-dependency is not the same as giving better rewards for doing things as a group. In DAoC you could solo all you wanted, but it wasn't going to be as fast as grouping. Grouping is a much harder thing to do, so by design it should yield a greater reward, or people won't do it, and then the feature will vanish for those that like it. It happened in DAoC after they added /level 20 and kill tasks to the game.

I'm starting to think DAOC might have been a bit of a unique animal in terms of how the group mechanics worked, Mythic seemed to have hit more or less the perfect storm in terms of balance between soloing and grouping, at least in terms of encouraging players to group.

I didn't play every title back then (who had the time), but the ones I did play had nothing really resembling it.

 

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  TobiasGrey

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/12/12
Posts: 170

9/17/12 9:06:01 AM#120
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by TobiasGrey
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Loktofeit

So it's the Grouping = Socializing argument. I guess that could work, however it's never been seen to extend any level of socializing beyond the guild/clan unit.

Really? I read it as the "co-dependency = socializing", ala EQ1.

Co-dependency is not the same as giving better rewards for doing things as a group. In DAoC you could solo all you wanted, but it wasn't going to be as fast as grouping. Grouping is a much harder thing to do, so by design it should yield a greater reward, or people won't do it, and then the feature will vanish for those that like it. It happened in DAoC after they added /level 20 and kill tasks to the game.

I'm starting to think DAOC might have been a bit of a unique animal in terms of how the group mechanics worked, Mythic seemed to have hit more or less the perfect storm in terms of balance between soloing and grouping, at least in terms of encouraging players to group.

I didn't play every title back then (who had the time), but the ones I did play had nothing really resembling it.

 

DAoC did indeed do a ton right. The camp bonus system which encouraged groups to travel around? Group bonus xp? The exponential rate of increasing efficiency when a group added players? I wish WoW had copied DAoC's model, maybe then the game would be more enjoyable to play for everyone. But, the Blizzard devs were all raiders from EQ, so they recreated a watered down version of that experience, warts and all.

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