Originally posted by Calerxes

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

Originally posted by Khaeros

Originally posted by TobiasGrey

Rewarding socializing and grouping is a great idea. Why? Because its harder. Doing harder things should yield a better reward than taking the easy route.

 

Our definitions of 'social' are a little different, then.

 

I'm not concerned with the small, singular journey of one player or small group to the level cap in a game.  To call group leveling 'social' is an extreme overstatement, to me.

 

I'm talking 'social' as in server-wide communities, events that tie in entire guilds with each other, creating a positive mentality with respectable ideals that encourages other players to do the same to the new players, 'passing it forward'.  Leaving the community in a better shape than it was when we took root.

 

It's larger than just the leveling experience.  It's about making an event and watching players love every moment of it, coming together (or against each other if we are talking more PvP-heavy games) in camraderie or rivarly.

 

That's social.

YES YES YES-

We are not talking about an efriend here, or a new chat bar.... We are talking about a social dynamic that works IN GAME

 

Being social has many meanings and thats why MMO's have developed to not force that diverse audience into doing something they don't care for but it doesn't mean the social aspect has gone its just changed and I put up the miryad of different guilds that socialise in their own way, its up to you find the community that offers your chosen social activities such as Khaeros' guild. Modern MMO's are more inclusive than they've ever been they are not perfect but they mirror modern society in that inclusiveness.

But Sir, if my socialization and grouping has zero impact (in fact its counterproductive) that might be "inclusive" but its poijntless. Its just chatting with strangers and playing make believe.

I do not want to chat with strangers for no "reason" nor do I want to play make believe. I am not looking for an edate.

If inclusivness means nobody vcan have any effect on the game world and everyone Wins- Why are we playing these games? Why not just buy the game and instantly be at max everything???? Hmmmm, single player games do that.

Originally posted by TobiasGrey

In modern games, there is no harsh world to band people together

If we can band people together in 'games' that have zero game mechanics (like MUSHes, which are mostly just roleplaying frameworks), then I can certainly do it in any MMORPG structure, whether it be themepark or sandbox, old or new, text or DX11.

That's the difference.  I don't need the game to give me a sense of socialization.  We create and invoke that sense out of nothing. 

Originally posted by Khaeros

Originally posted by TobiasGrey

In modern games, there is no harsh world to band people together

 

If we can band people together in 'games' that have zero game mechanics (like MUSHes, which are mostly just roleplaying frameworks), then I can certainly do it in any MMORPG structure, whether it be themepark or sandbox, old or new, text or DX11.

 

That's the difference.  I don't need the game to give me a sense of socialization.  We create and invoke that sense out of nothing. 

When a game is built around anti social mechanics, it draws anti social people to it. That is the community that forms. Your weird philosophy is pretty flawed. I can like working together with people all I want, but if people never group, never respond to chat, and never interact with you, there's jack shit you can do about it.

If a game doesn't encourage community and socializing, a social community WILL NOT develop, no matter how much you want it to.

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

Originally posted by Calerxes

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

Originally posted by Khaeros

Originally posted by TobiasGrey

Rewarding socializing and grouping is a great idea. Why? Because its harder. Doing harder things should yield a better reward than taking the easy route.

 

Our definitions of 'social' are a little different, then.

 

I'm not concerned with the small, singular journey of one player or small group to the level cap in a game.  To call group leveling 'social' is an extreme overstatement, to me.

 

I'm talking 'social' as in server-wide communities, events that tie in entire guilds with each other, creating a positive mentality with respectable ideals that encourages other players to do the same to the new players, 'passing it forward'.  Leaving the community in a better shape than it was when we took root.

 

It's larger than just the leveling experience.  It's about making an event and watching players love every moment of it, coming together (or against each other if we are talking more PvP-heavy games) in camraderie or rivarly.

 

That's social.

YES YES YES-

We are not talking about an efriend here, or a new chat bar.... We are talking about a social dynamic that works IN GAME

 

Being social has many meanings and thats why MMO's have developed to not force that diverse audience into doing something they don't care for but it doesn't mean the social aspect has gone its just changed and I put up the myriad of different guilds that socialise in their own way, its up to you find the community that offers your chosen social activities such as Khaeros' guild. Modern MMO's are more inclusive than they've ever been they are not perfect but they mirror modern society in that inclusiveness.

But Sir, if my socialization and grouping has zero impact (in fact its counterproductive) that might be "inclusive" but its poijntless. Its just chatting with strangers and playing make believe.

I do not want to chat with strangers for no "reason" nor do I want to play make believe. I am not looking for an edate.

If inclusivness means nobody vcan have any effect on the game world and everyone Wins- Why are we playing these games? Why not just buy the game and instantly be at max everything???? Hmmmm, single player games do that.

MMO "Role Playing Game"

As I said you have to find your own community that socialises they way you want. There are a plethora of MMO's out there but you have to look away from AAA titles in the main. The more money an MMO costs the less complex it will be to appeal to a wider audience. This is the bases of my argument the games are out there they might not be a perfect fit but they exist, but it seems it is easier to come to MMORPG.com and bitch rather that find a game that they enjoy. 

Originally posted by TobiasGrey

Originally posted by Khaeros

Originally posted by TobiasGrey

In modern games, there is no harsh world to band people together

 

If we can band people together in 'games' that have zero game mechanics (like MUSHes, which are mostly just roleplaying frameworks), then I can certainly do it in any MMORPG structure, whether it be themepark or sandbox, old or new, text or DX11.

 

That's the difference.  I don't need the game to give me a sense of socialization.  We create and invoke that sense out of nothing. 

When a game is built around anti social mechanics, it draws anti social people to it. That is the community that forms. Your weird philosophy is pretty flawed. I can like working together with people all I want, but if people never group, never respond to chat, and never interact with you, there's jack shit you can do about it.

If a game doesn't encourage community and socializing, a social community WILL NOT develop, no matter how much you want it to.

Khaeros has already stated that he facilitates the making of a community he doesn't need the game to encourage him to socialise he goes out there and makes it happen. There seems to be a crowd of old time gamers who expect the game to dictate to the populous what to do while others go out and make it happen regardless of mechanics, I find RP servers are the best places for this.

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Of course, as it should be.

I play games to PLAY, not socialize. If i want to socialize, i go socialize (chatroom, or god forbide, actually MEET a friend).

Grouping is different. Grouping is a gameplay style .. that i play co-op. It is not impossible that i may chat with someone in a group, but certainly that is NOT the norm, and NOT why i play a GAME.

 

See and this sort of mentality cracks me up, you say you play games to PLAY games... not socialize.. Isn't one of the great challenges of gaming working on a team?

Look back in time before computer games, look at other games that were around..

Football

Soccer

Baseball

Basketball

Vollyball

Cricket

Hockey

(I could go on for a long time)

 

All team based games, when did gaming become about AVOIDING challenges? 

All of our great sports movies now day (mighty ducks, remeber the titans etc...) were about getting a group of people and actually forming a team, getting them to work togeather..

Even 4000 years ago people hunted in groups, they worked togeather, this singlistic attitude that people have now days is unrealistic of the way we were designed.

 

 

1) There are plenty of different type of challenge. The point of a GAME is to entertain. So obviously i can choose whatever challenge i like. For example, i hate football ... am i going to play it just because it is a challenge ... NO.

2) Sure .. i am not against working in a team. But there is no reason i need to socialize with them. Just do your part in the game, and communicate about the game. There is no reason to chat before going into a dungeon.

3) If i want to play a sports, i would be doing so, and NOT be playing video games. Team sports is irrelevant in this discussion.

4) We are not in a world 4000 years ago, are we? Whatever happened in the past is irrelevant. In those days, doing math is unrealistic too. Are you advocating not educating kids about math?

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

 

YES-

But being social does not mean "Come be my friend, whats new in your life? Hows the wife?" lol.

In UO I was a KNOWN Crafter. I had a good reputation as being fair and trustworthy (server rep mattered) . Sometimes I needed to travel so I would Pay other players to "guard" me. Some players sought me out to craft things etc.

It was social within the ciontext of the game (something I think many are missing) not bullshitting about the weather or politics (except IN GAME POLITICS)- It was working together. I couldnt achive everything on my own so I had people who I went to for certain mats and services as people came to me for the same.

Which is NOT why i play a game. And modern MMOs have mechanics that make these considerations irrelevant so we can focus on combat.

And what you said is not even inconsistent with some of the modern LFD tools. So you have a rep. Use a friend list to group instead of just PUG. If people are impressed with your crafting or whatever abilities, they can put you on friend list too.

Heck, i have put players on friend list that i know they have a crafting recipe i would like to make.

In this sense, there is no objection to cut out unnecessariy chit-chat .. like forcing chatting when waiting for a group, or riding a boat.

Originally posted by Rossboss

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Theocritus
    I think people are so socialized from facebook, twitter, and their cell phones that they don't need it from their MMOs.

That's an interesting view, and for people that are constantly connected to the internet, I think you may very well be onto something there. 24/7 has become 60/60 as we are inundated with IMs, emails, tweets and assorted other feedback channels. Games, commonly a diversion or even an escape, are a great place to put up the AFK flag and turn an otherwise steady bombardment of interaction requests/needs into a moment of making it opt-in, passive or even non-existent.

I can definitely agree with this, but honestly, each person plays their games how they want to play the game. Some people play games TO socialize instead of using other outlets like social media websites. I've met players that have 3 generations of a family in real life playing in the game at once. 3 generations, that means grandparents all the way down to grandchildren. Never has immersion been so complete in any game except for in real life. The only true way to play games in a social bubble is to play single player games, which are few and far between now.

I agree with you there. I wasn't suggesting at all that people never or shouldn't socialize and interact with others. I was simply expandingon the premise presented as to why some don't.

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Of course, as it should be.

I play games to PLAY, not socialize. If i want to socialize, i go socialize (chatroom, or god forbide, actually MEET a friend).

Grouping is different. Grouping is a gameplay style .. that i play co-op. It is not impossible that i may chat with someone in a group, but certainly that is NOT the norm, and NOT why i play a GAME.

See and this sort of mentality cracks me up, you say you play games to PLAY games... not socialize.. Isn't one of the great challenges of gaming working on a team?

Look back in time before computer games, look at other games that were around..

Football

Soccer

Baseball

Basketball

Vollyball

Cricket

Hockey

(I could go on for a long time)

 

All team based games, when did gaming become about AVOIDING challenges? 

All of our great sports movies now day (mighty ducks, remeber the titans etc...) were about getting a group of people and actually forming a team, getting them to work togeather..

Even 4000 years ago people hunted in groups, they worked togeather, this singlistic attitude that people have now days is unrealistic of the way we were designed.

That's a list of sports. Sports are about teamwork vs another team. Primitive toys didn't have AI, and the challenges were presented in the form of puzzle or games. For greater challenges, people took to playing against each other. With computers, we now have another opponent to challenge us. Life, culture and technology - whether you want to accept it or not - has progressed over the past 4,000 year.

It's unrealistic to enjoy Crossword Puzzles and Sodoku without others?

It's unrealistic to have fun playing an FPS or CRPG without others?

Maybe it 'cracks you up' that he plays games to just play because you are spending more effort rationalizing your own view than trying to understand the views of others.

Well first off, last time I checked "sports" are games.. let me wiki it.... brb

*5 seconds later*

Yup they are games, you can put your "argument" to rest.

 

Secondly, you can deffinitly enjoy single player games, even I enjoy a good game of solitar every now and again..

but then I ask, why play a mmo?

See this is where your "argument" has trouble, because my topic isn't about whether people want to play by themselfs with other people around.

 

The topic stemmed from another topic on WHY MMO's are less social now (if you had actually read the OP you'd know that)

thank you for your time.

I think you're under the assumption that the more snarky you are in the reply, the more correct your stance is. I guess that works for you.

Yes, Dewn, a sport is a type of game. Not all games are sports or meant to be played like sports. Going to need you to grasp that first. Let me know when you do and we can move forward from there.

I miss the days when we would make life long friends at the Arcade while playing Ikari warriors. All those times waiting in line, you chat up the other person waiting and.... wait... hold on.... that never happened.  

Coop gaming is gaming.  I don't think "making life long friends" is apart of the equation.  I found that to be a byproduct of gaming early MMOs. I had friends when i got online, the same i would when i went into the arcade, but we weren't there to chat up social lives, we were there to game.  

I think the Devs are giving socializing the shaft due to trying to mold their product into something that appeases the masses,which in turn molds the player over time while they adjust to the game.Theyve made pretty much most of your experiences in their MMO's soloable,thus u seldomly need to rely on anyone...ever.

There used to be motivation to group.It wasnt just the desire of "uber lewtz" either,leveling used to be harder and the only way to gain optimum exp was by grouping.Thus,people would be together more often than just in dungeons and there would be more socializing that went along with it.

Socializing was part of the content in a way.

Originally posted by tank017

I think the Devs are giving socializing the shaft due to trying to mold their porduct into something that appeases the masses

And 7 years of failed themeparks has proven that this does not work.

Originally posted by TobiasGrey

Originally posted by tank017

I think the Devs are giving socializing the shaft due to trying to mold their porduct into something that appeases the masses

And 7 years of failed themeparks has proven that this does not work.

In your eyes theyve been failures,On the companies side however,they make their monies worth more often than not.

Originally posted by tank017

Originally posted by TobiasGrey

Originally posted by tank017

I think the Devs are giving socializing the shaft due to trying to mold their porduct into something that appeases the masses

And 7 years of failed themeparks has proven that this does not work.

In your eyes theyve been failures,On the companies side however,they make their monies worth more often than not.

Uhh... really? Because last I checked two of Funcom's partner companies went bankrupt over AoC. WAR disolved Mythic. SWTOR broke Bioware.

Most themeparks have to merge servers within a few months of launch their products do so poorly. When your MMO peaks one day 1 and then slowly declines... its hard to call it a success.

Originally posted by TobiasGrey

Originally posted by tank017

Originally posted by TobiasGrey

Originally posted by tank017

I think the Devs are giving socializing the shaft due to trying to mold their porduct into something that appeases the masses

And 7 years of failed themeparks has proven that this does not work.

In your eyes theyve been failures,On the companies side however,they make their monies worth more often than not.

Uhh... really? Because last I checked two of Funcom's partner companies went bankrupt over AoC. WAR disolved Mythic. SWTOR broke Bioware.

Most themeparks have to merge servers within a few months of launch their products do so poorly. When your MMO peaks one day 1 and then slowly declines... its hard to call it a success.

So do they actually make a profit with this sort of model? or are they like a gambaling addict in vegas? spending as much as they have in hopes for that million dollar jackpot.

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by TobiasGrey

Originally posted by tank017

Originally posted by TobiasGrey

Originally posted by tank017

I think the Devs are giving socializing the shaft due to trying to mold their porduct into something that appeases the masses

And 7 years of failed themeparks has proven that this does not work.

In your eyes theyve been failures,On the companies side however,they make their monies worth more often than not.

Uhh... really? Because last I checked two of Funcom's partner companies went bankrupt over AoC. WAR disolved Mythic. SWTOR broke Bioware.

Most themeparks have to merge servers within a few months of launch their products do so poorly. When your MMO peaks one day 1 and then slowly declines... its hard to call it a success.

So do they actually make a profit with this sort of model? or are they like a gambaling addict in vegas? spending as much as they have in hopes for that million dollar jackpot.

Exactly

They wouldnt do it if they knew they wouldnt make a profit..

There's a reason why they are playing it safe when it comes to the type of MMO's being made.Im sure the suits know by now that reaching "WoW status" in terms of profit is a long shot,but they do know they can still turn a profit.

Originally posted by Ausare
Just about every guild i have been in in many gsmes are aways talking and helping each other.

This is no offense meant to you Ausare but in every "social" thread I have ever read there is always a few peeps that bellow up, "If you just had the right guild the world would be butterflies and bubbling brooks."  

And I have to answer this every single time with a resounding, "Ah, no."

It is a complete matter of luck with guilds if you get a good one or not.  I and a zillion others have not been lucky.  Yes, I participated.  No, it was not my fault the guild leader quit or someone stole or there was a fight, etc, etc, etc.  I was always the one making jokes trying to lighten the mood and suggesting we do stuff together and building site tools to help with that.  So don't say that stupid saying, "You get what you put in to it."  Because I did and got nothing.

PS

Also, I agree PvP has ruined games.  If you can find a way to blame bad socializing on PvP I'll sign my name to it as well.  I hate PvP.  Did I mention I hate PvP?  Why?  PvP and PvE cannot exist together.  Ruin my gear.  Ruin my stats.  Constantly being gimped because t.it-sucking toddlers are obsessed with kicking each other's b.utts all day.  Bulk up and join a football team.  Get off my turf!

There is no reason to anymore so people don't.

People want to be social, I mean massively popular games like Dota, L4D and even FPS games like BF3 are such social team based games.

The MMO has just evolved into this weird single player game which is weird.

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by TobiasGrey

Originally posted by tank017

Originally posted by TobiasGrey

Originally posted by tank017

I think the Devs are giving socializing the shaft due to trying to mold their porduct into something that appeases the masses

And 7 years of failed themeparks has proven that this does not work.

In your eyes theyve been failures,On the companies side however,they make their monies worth more often than not.

Uhh... really? Because last I checked two of Funcom's partner companies went bankrupt over AoC. WAR disolved Mythic. SWTOR broke Bioware.

Most themeparks have to merge servers within a few months of launch their products do so poorly. When your MMO peaks one day 1 and then slowly declines... its hard to call it a success.

So do they actually make a profit with this sort of model? or are they like a gambaling addict in vegas? spending as much as they have in hopes for that million dollar jackpot.

The publishers think its a sure shot, because in the world of big business, copying the leading company is what usually makes people money. But thats not how MMORPGs work. Most people who are genre savvy saw every train wreck coming. The themepark model is not designed for long term retention. "But WoW did it!" the thing people don't realize is that WOW is a total data outlier. Almost nothing about it can apply to anything else, it is too far removed. It is THE mainstream name for MMOs. People who don't even know what an MMO knows what WoW is. They can afford the massive churn rate of losing and gaining subs. Smaller companies cannot.

I can sell pizzas on a street corner for 5 dollars a pie, but if it cost me 4.95$ to make the pizza, I'm not doing well financially. I have to cut my losses somewhere, and I can't afford to stop or I won't make ANY of my startup cost back. Funcom made Age of Conan profitable by firing 80% of their staff and keeping it running for about 2 years. There's a reason even failed MMOs usually don't close down, its because they try to make up their money loss.

Themeparks, by and large, as they've been designed the last 7 years, don't work.