Originally posted by Theocritus
    I think people are so socialized from facebook, twitter, and their cell phones that they don't need it from their MMOs.

That's an interesting view, and for people that are constantly connected to the internet, I think you may very well be onto something there. 24/7 has become 60/60 as we are inundated with IMs, emails, tweets and assorted other feedback channels. Games, commonly a diversion or even an escape, are a great place to put up the AFK flag and turn an otherwise steady bombardment of interaction requests/needs into a moment of making it opt-in, passive or even non-existent.

Socializing is getting the shaft because games don't encourage or reward it anymore. You can have a ton of social people in a game but if the game gives no tools encouraging socializing, a social atmosphere will never develop. There will never be a social community in SWTOR, or TSW, or even WoW.

The harsher and harder the game, the more people will band together. There IS a happy balance. You can't inspire teamwork without giving people a common foe, you can't encourage it if everyone is solo quest grinding in instances.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Theocritus
    I think people are so socialized from facebook, twitter, and their cell phones that they don't need it from their MMOs.

That's an interesting view, and for people that are constantly connected to the internet, I think you may very well be onto something there. 24/7 has become 60/60 as we are inundated with IMs, emails, tweets and assorted other feedback channels. Games, commonly a diversion or even an escape, are a great place to put up the AFK flag and turn an otherwise steady bombardment of interaction requests/needs into a moment of making it opt-in, passive or even non-existent.

I can definitely agree with this, but honestly, each person plays their games how they want to play the game. Some people play games TO socialize instead of using other outlets like social media websites. I've met players that have 3 generations of a family in real life playing in the game at once. 3 generations, that means grandparents all the way down to grandchildren. Never has immersion been so complete in any game except for in real life. The only true way to play games in a social bubble is to play single player games, which are few and far between now.

Originally posted by Lissyl
I'll never understand why 'socialization' has suddenly become the big thing.  \

It hasn't suddenly become a big thing. MMORPGs, from their very first days, have been about socializing and sharing a world. The most recent trend, which has directly contributed to the failure of most themeparks, is to leave this part out of MMOs, because its "safer".

Its not just about chatting, its about being able to influence someone else's experience. Usually in a positive way, though in FFA PVP scenarios, not all the time.

Interesting and important topic. I think it's partialy due to the games/design and partialy due to the players. Some observations....

-  Most of todays games (and players) are focused primarly on progression, so time spent socializing or doing other things is time which comes at the cost of the games/players main goal...progression. I used to play a MUD (Gemstone for those who are interested) that had alot of progression in it, and we had our share of power-levelers...but there was an interesting design mechanic in this regard.... your character didn't get the exp you earned from killing things right away...it went into a sort of bucket from which you absorbed the EXP (meaning it counted for your characters advancement) at a fixed rate which was generaly FAR SLOWER then the speed at which you could add EXP into the bucket by killing mobs, and the bucket was only so large, meaning that once it was full any excess EXP you added was wasted. This meant that continueing to adventure after your bucket was full was COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE, since any exp you earned beyond your max bucket size was wasted, and if you continued to adventure you risked being killed and loosing whatever was still unabsorbed in your bocket.  Your character also had to be online  in order to absorb from your bucket. This meant the most efficient way to advance was to fill up your bucket and then go back to town and wait till you had absorbed whatever was in it before going out. Now you could theoriticaly just leave your character logged in and go read a book or something...I'm sure some people did that...but most people, even the power-levelers tended to socialize and RP in this downtime. It turns out that most people, even achievers, do like to socialize when they understand it isn't hindering thier other goals in the game.

- Speed of play, as observed, can leave little time for communication. More importantly style and difficulty of play don't REQUIRE or make ADVANTAGEOUS more then cursorary communication. If you are playing against a challenge (boss, encounter) that everybody knows how to defeat and what it will do....and everbody has and knows thier predefined rolls in that fight which are largely determined by thier class choice...then the group hardly needs to communicate. If you are walking into something UNIQUE that no one has ever faced before, and there is no Wiki "How to Defeat", then the group may take a considerable amount of time strategizing how to approach and defeat it..... especialy if the games combat system isn't so narrowly focused that every class has only one set thing that they are usefull for. This idea of strategizing together and working together to solve a problem tends to lead to bounds of comradeship which are an important basis for socialization.

- As above if the player is largely independant and self-sufficient then there is less opportunity for social bonds to form. They can still happen but the player has to conciously work at it, rather then it happening as an organic part of play. By contrast, for example, if a player is dependant upon others for construction and repair of thier adventuring gear, for rescuing them when they fall while adventuring, for healing them when they are injured and for opening treasure chests they might find.... such interdependence breeds a sense of connection to other players which is the basis for socialization.

- By contrast to the above, most of todays games inhibit or ACTIVELY penalize players encountering and working with each other. Logicaly one would think an adventurer out alone in the dangerous wilderness would be HAPPY to encounter another adventurer (or group) as it makes thier work easier and SAFER. Yet the opposite is true in most games. Safety is mostly not an issue as general adventuring is easy enough that one rarely risks death, even solo....and death has so little consequence, that it's not all that important to avoid it if it does occur. Instead the other adventurer is seen as competetion for valuable resources (kills/exp, quest drops, treasure) and therefore undesirable to encounter. Even when people group to work together, that group is usualy taken away from the main world (private intances) and not allowed opportunity to interact with others.

- Finally much of the important/fun/interesting game-play in games today is seen to occur at the "end game.".... and the "end game" is a realisticaly achievable goal in a matter of days, weeks or a couple months at most these days for most games. Thus players who want to experience the most out of a game, naturaly tend to adopt the attitude of putting thier heads down, ignoring distractions (such as socialization) and powering through so that they can "get there". If the thing you are experiencing at the end of a journey isn't significantly richer or more interesting then the journey itself....and if the end point of the journey is significantly distant...then most people are going to be more relaxed about doing other things while on the journey. For example if you tell me that there are fabolous riches just an hour away...I'm not likely to be interested to sit down and talk to you for 30 minutes. By contrast if I'm on a journey that takes 10 years to complete and the only thing at the end is a signpost that says "Hey you are here.".... then taking a 30 minute break to talk to someone isn't much of a downside.

YMMV.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Of course, as it should be.

I play games to PLAY, not socialize. If i want to socialize, i go socialize (chatroom, or god forbide, actually MEET a friend).

Grouping is different. Grouping is a gameplay style .. that i play co-op. It is not impossible that i may chat with someone in a group, but certainly that is NOT the norm, and NOT why i play a GAME.

 

See and this sort of mentality cracks me up, you say you play games to PLAY games... not socialize.. Isn't one of the great challenges of gaming working on a team?

Look back in time before computer games, look at other games that were around..

Football

Soccer

Baseball

Basketball

Vollyball

Cricket

Hockey

(I could go on for a long time)

 

All team based games, when did gaming become about AVOIDING challenges? 

All of our great sports movies now day (mighty ducks, remeber the titans etc...) were about getting a group of people and actually forming a team, getting them to work togeather..

Even 4000 years ago people hunted in groups, they worked togeather, this singlistic attitude that people have now days is unrealistic of the way we were designed.

That's a list of sports. Sports are about teamwork vs another team. Primitive toys didn't have AI, and the challenges were presented in the form of puzzle or games. For greater challenges, people took to playing against each other. With computers, we now have another opponent to challenge us. Life, culture and technology - whether you want to accept it or not - has progressed over the past 4,000 year.

It's unrealistic to enjoy Crossword Puzzles and Sodoku without others?

It's unrealistic to have fun playing an FPS or CRPG without others?

Maybe it 'cracks you up' that he plays games to just play because you are spending more effort rationalizing your own view than trying to understand the views of others.

 

 

Well first off, last time I checked "sports" are games.. let me wiki it.... brb

*5 seconds later*

Yup they are games, you can put your "argument" to rest.

Secondly, you can deffinitly enjoy single player games, even I enjoy a good game of solitar every now and again..

but then I ask, why play a mmo?

See this is where your "argument" has trouble, because my topic isn't about whether people want to play by themselfs with other people around.

The topic stemmed from another topic on WHY MMO's are less social now (if you had actually read the OP you'd know that)

thank you for your time.

Originally posted by TobiasGrey

Originally posted by Lissyl
I'll never understand why 'socialization' has suddenly become the big thing.  \

It hasn't suddenly become a big thing. MMORPGs, from their very first days, have been about socializing and sharing a world. The most recent trend, which has directly contributed to the failure of most themeparks, is to leave this part out of MMOs, because its "safer".

 

Its not just about chatting, its about being able to influence someone else's experience. Usually in a positive way, though in FFA PVP scenarios, not all the time.

Agree'd 100%

it baffles me why this is so hard for some to understand. I get it you don't want to play with others, you spent all day at work chatting it up, you are connected to twitter and facebook and all of this, and now you just want some down time.. away from other people, I get it! I really do.... but here is the part that baffles me, why would you then get on a game THAT IS MADE TO PLAY WITH OTHERS!!!!! and act offended that people think your crazy.

[analogy] To me, it would be like getting on facebook.. posting a status, or some pictures.. and then getting pissed off that people commented on the said status. [/analogy]

its just crazy talk.

if you don't want to be around and socalize with other people thats fine, then DON'T play a MMO.. go play a SPRPG.. there are alot of good ones out there.

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by TobiasGrey

Originally posted by Lissyl
I'll never understand why 'socialization' has suddenly become the big thing.  \

It hasn't suddenly become a big thing. MMORPGs, from their very first days, have been about socializing and sharing a world. The most recent trend, which has directly contributed to the failure of most themeparks, is to leave this part out of MMOs, because its "safer".

 

Its not just about chatting, its about being able to influence someone else's experience. Usually in a positive way, though in FFA PVP scenarios, not all the time.

Agree'd 100%

 

it baffles me why this is so hard for some to understand. I get it you don't want to play with others, you spent all day at work chatting it up, you are connected to twitter and facebook and all of this, and now you just want some down time.. away from other people, I get it! I really do.... but here is the part that baffles me, why would you then get on a game THAT IS MADE TO PLAY WITH OTHERS!!!!!

Not only that, they get on a game made to play with others... then complain if they have to play with others. The MMO genre has been usurped by anti social casual tourists, mostly thanks to WoW and publishers.

You know, most people have to "socialize" or "deal with" socializing people all day (*IF* they have jobs....)

I've thought long andd hard about this and I believe people's ears (or eyes in this case) are just tired after a day of work.

I've sat back and thought why I refuse to get on guild's teamspeak 2 server and I'm thinking "well, tired of listening to people jabber/blab."

Originally posted by TobiasGrey

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by TobiasGrey

Originally posted by Lissyl
I'll never understand why 'socialization' has suddenly become the big thing.  \

It hasn't suddenly become a big thing. MMORPGs, from their very first days, have been about socializing and sharing a world. The most recent trend, which has directly contributed to the failure of most themeparks, is to leave this part out of MMOs, because its "safer".

 

Its not just about chatting, its about being able to influence someone else's experience. Usually in a positive way, though in FFA PVP scenarios, not all the time.

Agree'd 100%

 

it baffles me why this is so hard for some to understand. I get it you don't want to play with others, you spent all day at work chatting it up, you are connected to twitter and facebook and all of this, and now you just want some down time.. away from other people, I get it! I really do.... but here is the part that baffles me, why would you then get on a game THAT IS MADE TO PLAY WITH OTHERS!!!!!

Not only that, they get on a game made to play with others... then complain if they have to play with others. The MMO genre has been usurped by anti social casual tourists, mostly thanks to WoW and publishers.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

Originally posted by TigerAero

You know, most people have to "socialize" or "deal with" socializing people all day (*IF* they have jobs....)

 

I've thought long andd hard about this and I believe people's ears (or eyes in this case) are just tired after a day of work.

 

I've sat back and thought why I refuse to get on guild's teamspeak 2 server and I'm thinking "well, tired of listening to people jabber/blab."

Hmmmm- Skyrim sounds like a game for all you people *with Jobs (was that a veiled insult Btw?) I mean heaven forbit after you come home from "Work" (something most people apparently do not do- You are "special") why would you want to *gasp* talk to people.

See, they make SINGLE PLAYER GAMES (which usually are "better" if your not socializing anyhow) and games with "leaderboards" where you can compete AND NEVER SPEAK TO A SINGLE PERSON.

I guess this is what doesnt make sense- Its not like you are forced to play MMOs.

The more people you have, the less social people are.  Don't ask me why but from my experience it holds true. 

In small towns, people wil wave to each other and stop to talk.  In big cities people blow by one another without a passing thought.  This holds true in MMO's. 

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

Originally posted by TigerAero

You know, most people have to "socialize" or "deal with" socializing people all day (*IF* they have jobs....)

 

I've thought long andd hard about this and I believe people's ears (or eyes in this case) are just tired after a day of work.

 

I've sat back and thought why I refuse to get on guild's teamspeak 2 server and I'm thinking "well, tired of listening to people jabber/blab."

Hmmmm- Skyrim sounds like a game for all you people *with Jobs (was that a veiled insult Btw?) I mean heaven forbit after you come home from "Work" (something most people apparently do not do- You are "special") why would you want to *gasp* talk to people.

See, they make SINGLE PLAYER GAMES (which usually are "better" if your not socializing anyhow) and games with "leaderboards" where you can compete AND NEVER SPEAK TO A SINGLE PERSON.

I guess this is what doesnt make sense- Its not like you are forced to play MMOs.

Because I can experience the game how I want to-- and because it's buy to play. Same cash scheme as a rpg you'd get off the shelves.

You don't seem to understand the "power" buy to play games have. You can just throw it away casually when you get tired of the game or you can stay glued to it in hopes other people who want no subs want to play it long term.

Originally posted by TigerAero

Originally posted by TobiasGrey

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by TobiasGrey

Originally posted by Lissyl
I'll never understand why 'socialization' has suddenly become the big thing.  \

It hasn't suddenly become a big thing. MMORPGs, from their very first days, have been about socializing and sharing a world. The most recent trend, which has directly contributed to the failure of most themeparks, is to leave this part out of MMOs, because its "safer".

 

Its not just about chatting, its about being able to influence someone else's experience. Usually in a positive way, though in FFA PVP scenarios, not all the time.

Agree'd 100%

 

it baffles me why this is so hard for some to understand. I get it you don't want to play with others, you spent all day at work chatting it up, you are connected to twitter and facebook and all of this, and now you just want some down time.. away from other people, I get it! I really do.... but here is the part that baffles me, why would you then get on a game THAT IS MADE TO PLAY WITH OTHERS!!!!!

Not only that, they get on a game made to play with others... then complain if they have to play with others. The MMO genre has been usurped by anti social casual tourists, mostly thanks to WoW and publishers.

 

And there's nothing wrong with that.

Uh.. theres a TON wrong with that.

There were already a million different games for the folks that liked singleplayer games with optional COOP.

There was nothing like oldschool MMORPGs, and now there aren't anymore. Several million people are now without their genre of choice just because a bunch of fair weather fans popped in and started crying, then didn't stick around to play in the mess they created anyway.

Originally posted by Badaboom

The more people you have, the less social people are.  Don't ask me why but from my experience it holds true. 

In small towns, people wil wave to each other and stop to talk.  In big cities people blow by one another without a passing thought.  This holds true in MMO's. 

You clearly never played golden age MMOs like EQ, UO, and DAoC...

Originally posted by TobiasGrey

Originally posted by TigerAero

Originally posted by TobiasGrey

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by TobiasGrey

Originally posted by Lissyl
I'll never understand why 'socialization' has suddenly become the big thing.  \

It hasn't suddenly become a big thing. MMORPGs, from their very first days, have been about socializing and sharing a world. The most recent trend, which has directly contributed to the failure of most themeparks, is to leave this part out of MMOs, because its "safer".

 

Its not just about chatting, its about being able to influence someone else's experience. Usually in a positive way, though in FFA PVP scenarios, not all the time.

Agree'd 100%

 

it baffles me why this is so hard for some to understand. I get it you don't want to play with others, you spent all day at work chatting it up, you are connected to twitter and facebook and all of this, and now you just want some down time.. away from other people, I get it! I really do.... but here is the part that baffles me, why would you then get on a game THAT IS MADE TO PLAY WITH OTHERS!!!!!

Not only that, they get on a game made to play with others... then complain if they have to play with others. The MMO genre has been usurped by anti social casual tourists, mostly thanks to WoW and publishers.

 

And there's nothing wrong with that.

Uh.. theres a TON wrong with that.

There were already a million different games for the folks that liked singleplayer games with optional COOP.

There was nothing like oldschool MMORPGs, and now there aren't anymore. Several million people are now without their genre of choice just because a bunch of fair weather fans popped in and started crying, then didn't stick around to play in the mess they created anyway.

I doubt a "million" can be "fair weathered" by a bunch...in a gaming genre.

Originally posted by TigerAero

Originally posted by TobiasGrey

Originally posted by TigerAero

Originally posted by TobiasGrey

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by TobiasGrey

Originally posted by Lissyl
I'll never understand why 'socialization' has suddenly become the big thing.  \

It hasn't suddenly become a big thing. MMORPGs, from their very first days, have been about socializing and sharing a world. The most recent trend, which has directly contributed to the failure of most themeparks, is to leave this part out of MMOs, because its "safer".

 

Its not just about chatting, its about being able to influence someone else's experience. Usually in a positive way, though in FFA PVP scenarios, not all the time.

Agree'd 100%

 

it baffles me why this is so hard for some to understand. I get it you don't want to play with others, you spent all day at work chatting it up, you are connected to twitter and facebook and all of this, and now you just want some down time.. away from other people, I get it! I really do.... but here is the part that baffles me, why would you then get on a game THAT IS MADE TO PLAY WITH OTHERS!!!!!

Not only that, they get on a game made to play with others... then complain if they have to play with others. The MMO genre has been usurped by anti social casual tourists, mostly thanks to WoW and publishers.

 

And there's nothing wrong with that.

Uh.. theres a TON wrong with that.

There were already a million different games for the folks that liked singleplayer games with optional COOP.

There was nothing like oldschool MMORPGs, and now there aren't anymore. Several million people are now without their genre of choice just because a bunch of fair weather fans popped in and started crying, then didn't stick around to play in the mess they created anyway.

 

I doubt a "million" can be "fair weathered" by a bunch...in a gaming genre.

Why do you doubt? It's exactly what happened. Publishers catered to the casual WoW fans, who never had any intention of leaving WoW. Their alienated the audience that got the MMO genre off the ground, and failed to make any traction with the WoW crowd. Now we're left with a genre that's been rock bottom for the last 8 years, pleasing almost no one except for the handful of players who branched off from WoW and scream that everything should be exactly like it.

Originally posted by TobiasGrey

Originally posted by TigerAero

Originally posted by TobiasGrey

Originally posted by TigerAero

Originally posted by TobiasGrey

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by TobiasGrey

Originally posted by Lissyl
I'll never understand why 'socialization' has suddenly become the big thing.  \

It hasn't suddenly become a big thing. MMORPGs, from their very first days, have been about socializing and sharing a world. The most recent trend, which has directly contributed to the failure of most themeparks, is to leave this part out of MMOs, because its "safer".

 

Its not just about chatting, its about being able to influence someone else's experience. Usually in a positive way, though in FFA PVP scenarios, not all the time.

Agree'd 100%

 

it baffles me why this is so hard for some to understand. I get it you don't want to play with others, you spent all day at work chatting it up, you are connected to twitter and facebook and all of this, and now you just want some down time.. away from other people, I get it! I really do.... but here is the part that baffles me, why would you then get on a game THAT IS MADE TO PLAY WITH OTHERS!!!!!

Not only that, they get on a game made to play with others... then complain if they have to play with others. The MMO genre has been usurped by anti social casual tourists, mostly thanks to WoW and publishers.

 

And there's nothing wrong with that.

Uh.. theres a TON wrong with that.

There were already a million different games for the folks that liked singleplayer games with optional COOP.

There was nothing like oldschool MMORPGs, and now there aren't anymore. Several million people are now without their genre of choice just because a bunch of fair weather fans popped in and started crying, then didn't stick around to play in the mess they created anyway.

 

I doubt a "million" can be "fair weathered" by a bunch...in a gaming genre.

Why do you doubt? It's exactly what happened. Publishers catered to the casual WoW fans, who never had any intention of leaving WoW. Their alienated the audience that got the MMO genre off the ground, and failed to make any traction with the WoW crowd. Now we're left with a genre that's been rock bottom for the last 8 years, pleasing almost no one except for the handful of players who branched off from WoW and scream that everything should be exactly like it.

Those are some large encompassing views. I prefer life in the black and white. ;\