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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] General: Quest Hubs Are Dead, Finally!

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260 posts found
  Felheart5

Novice Member

Joined: 4/01/12
Posts: 34

9/11/12 4:38:16 PM#141
Originally posted by Fion
Originally posted by Fadedbomb

However, zones are still horrbily linear,

Lol I love it. You can always tell when someone hasn't played GW2 because they get their assumptions 'horribly' wrong. GW2 has the least linear zone design since EQ. 

Depends on how you look at it, the map still has relevant level ranges marked out on them creating a path for a player to follow. And pushing a couple of levels more than you currently are is, while doable, often harder. Which means the average player could still be running a fairly predictable path. The variety comes from which events are available at the time a player passes through I suppose. 

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

9/11/12 4:39:56 PM#142

heres what quest hub gameplay is to me

1 go to a village

2 run around clicking on everyone with a ! flying above their head

3 gather 10 - 20 quests

4 look at the circles that now show on your map

5 kill shit and collect stuff within the circles until thoose circles disapear

6 go back to the town, run around clicking everyone with a ? flying over there head, then click OK, sometimes you may get asked to pick some loot, so dont click too fast

7 wait some of thoose dudes have ! flying above their heads again, best talk to them, collect 10 more quests

8 go play the circles on the map game again, you will notice you will have to kill the stuff you killed before to get to the new stuff you need to kill now.  That guy back in town changed his mind he doesn't need black bear arses for his new hat he needs brown bear arses instead

9 return and click the question marks

10 oh theres one dude with a ! over his head, lets click him

11 theres a circle on the map over another village, travel there click the ? guy then run around clicking all the ! guys

12 RINSE REPEAT

Both GW2 and TSW break that, neither game does that. Before these 2 games (unless you are going back to very old games) I would only play games that let me level in PVP, because that hub style questing is pure unadulterated tedious garbage.

  Kuppa

Novice Member

Joined: 9/24/10
Posts: 3443

The problem with censorship is ********

9/11/12 4:42:00 PM#143
Originally posted by Wizardry

Ok first of all i hate you..lol /joking :)

That has been one of my biggest peeves in gaming is the hand holding and markers.I enjoyed FFXI which had NEITHER,no markers and no hand holding,so it felt like an adult game.

I might point out that Wow was/is not the heaviest questing game EQ2 imo is.We don't really even need to compare Wow and EQ2 they are both copies in 90% of the design from EQ.

It is obvious Mr.Kern copied other game ideas,especially EQ because FFXi was not a copy cat game,they did NOT offer xp for quests ,however Wow did,so they chose to copy rather than be creative or unique.

Now onto GW2.I see so many quick to make claim that they are different and it is the BEST idea.This all depends on the user because there are reasons it is not the best.

They still use map markers,so replacing npc markers for map markers is still un realistic and still hand holding.

Also their content can at times just magically float out of mid air just by walking up to a tree,again very unrealistic,it offers nothing to that immersive feeling.

Also i have no idea why so many are giving GW2 so much credit for ideas that were already done long before them,proof is my example of FFXI "NO quest hubs".So neither is it creative nor unique nor is it bringing us into new territory.The ONLY difference i have found is ANet has done a heck of a  lot more marketing and bragging  about it ,where as many have NEVER played FFXI to even realize they already been there donbe that and to a BETTER degree.

Now it will take too many examples and far too much to describe every detail,but i will chime on a couple.

This looting system is flat out a negative to the game.People are more concerned with how much damage they can do rather than fun or helping each other.Imagine this.....

You got to gether 5 random people to farm a dungeon.Then all a sudden some super elite drop falls from the boss.Now what would the other 5 players say if that one player said "I deserve this drop because i did the most damage' ??Seriously it would be met with a ton of anger,so why is this same approach accepted in GW2?I think again it is because Anet has done the most misleading sell job i have ever seen,they take every single aspect of the game and tell people how great it is.

One more small point is that in a ROLE playing game,you would not expect one to be staring at a map looking for an event,this is a linear design that drives players to follow the games push in one direction.There is of course the argument ,i'd rather run around chasing quests than just killing,i most certainly understand that,but saying GW2 way is the BEST way is far from the truth,it is imo EXACTLY like a quest hub game because you are following quests the same way.The fact they have progresion or mutiple lines is again far from being new,just about every game on the planet has already done that.

 

FFXI is a kill mob grind, pretty simple really. And like you I would understand how some folks really like that.

Your example has nothing to do with how GW2 works, its not a competition for who does the most damage it would be more like a threshold that whoever passes it gets your "super elite drop". And to add to that you get more rewards for rezing other players than killing stuff.


  Amphib_Ian

Novice Member

Joined: 1/24/11
Posts: 171

Fools fear nothing yet claim to know everything. Bravery is knowing everything yet fearing nothing.

9/11/12 4:42:04 PM#144

so DE's were implemented in such a way that before hearts were thrown in no one had any idea where to go or what to do and which DE's were accessible and which they needed to come back for?

Sounds to me like some sort of MMO should whip out a design scheme where your level is only relevent in the sense of what skills and perks and stats you have available to you, but the content of the game should change passively to reflect your current level regardless of where you are or what you are doing. Something like how FF8 worked or those crazy elder scrolls or fallout games in a way. unless i'm mistaken, but what i mean is no matter the order you explore the world in, no matter the direction, all content is simply adjusted to suit your current level dynamically. It would also make it jawesome so that you could be, say, level 80 and grouped up with a lvl 40, 10, 3, and 56 players all at the same time, each of you doing the exact same quest and/or dungeon content simutaneously and everything is everyone's level from their perspective so each can contribute to every fight in so much as their level facilitates. IMPOSSIBLE?! perhaps. GOOD IDEA?!?!?!!? yes.

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16473

9/11/12 4:47:05 PM#145

I do remember that the questgivers in Meridian 59 had something over their head in 1996, cant remember what tough.... But whatever.

Questhubs needs to go, I agree with that but personally do I wish that GW2 had skipped the heart quests as well. They are  not exactly questhubs but still a bit too similar for my taste, just exploring and do DEs are way more fun.

There is potential in DEs and I would really love a sandbox/themepark hybrid with a mix of DE and player generated content. 

  tordurbar

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/02/10
Posts: 395

9/11/12 5:09:18 PM#146

Totally disagree. I have no desire to return to the days of EQ. The best thing that wow did was introduce the question mark for quests. I am wading through the 15 -25 zones and the grid is wearing me down. Yes I can find DE but almost all of them need a group to succeed.  It seems that at least half of the dynamic events are escort quests. I hated these in every other mmo and I don't like them in GW2 either.  One thing for sure - I have NEVER seen a game with so many escort quests.

I am like many - underpowered for the zone levels. I know why - the initial zerg is gone to higher zones. I don't care what anyone says - GW2 is solo un-friendly. Read every "having a wonderful time" thread and you will see that the author is part of the zerg or a group. The higher level you go the harder it is to solo. I thought I might hit the wall at 30 but 25 is looking like the end.

This is a great game but it is NOT for solo players like me.

  Vladriel

Novice Member

Joined: 3/13/10
Posts: 48

9/11/12 5:33:28 PM#147
Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Yes, I will agree that "Quest Hubs" have been dealt a Death-Knell in GW2. However, zones are still horrbily linear, and quests are just "Prettied" up by hiding all the relevant data behind a "Progress Bar". However, the grindyness & ease of GW2 lends itself to a standard themepark, of which it fits perfectly into.

 

 

The renown hearts are hardly liner, you can go where you want it is your choice. As for the progress bar, it is hardly just for you, unless you are the only one in the areas performing the duties.. otherwise other players in that area are contributing to that same progress bar. 

  Purutzil

Elite Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 2828

The Critical Hit Pretzel!

9/11/12 5:38:30 PM#148
Originally posted by Vladriel
Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Yes, I will agree that "Quest Hubs" have been dealt a Death-Knell in GW2. However, zones are still horrbily linear, and quests are just "Prettied" up by hiding all the relevant data behind a "Progress Bar". However, the grindyness & ease of GW2 lends itself to a standard themepark, of which it fits perfectly into.

 

 

The renown hearts are hardly liner, you can go where you want it is your choice. As for the progress bar, it is hardly just for you, unless you are the only one in the areas performing the duties.. otherwise other players in that area are contributing to that same progress bar. 

Well in terms of that progress bar, if its a heart quest thats all on you. Events of course are counted for everyone. Hearts are pretty linear in terms of how to do many of them, but they feel flexible enough to make it look fresh. No chains or the likes to bog you down is a nice feature as well.

  Misaris

Novice Member

Joined: 6/28/12
Posts: 147

9/11/12 5:47:15 PM#149

THIS.

The quest presentation has changed, but not the activities you do. It is still the same thing you did in any other MMO. Nothing revolutionary or different than 10 years ago.

Originally posted by Torgrim

If you are so smart why don't you come up with something that's never been done before?

I´m not a game designer, but as a player I can say, there is nothing innovative about GW2 questing. Nothing. No mission to craft anything, no quest to investigate something or solve something in a challenging, non-combative way. No missions which make you interact with other players in some, new innovative way. And what bugs me the most, no brain puzzles like in Rift or Secret World (Jumping "Puzzles" don´t count sorry, I could as well hunt datacrons in SWTOR).

The only MMO which does those things to give you more variety in questing between the non-stop killing is Secret World. Quests involve crafting devices, solving puzzles, identify or scan mobs first before you need to kill them or use some sonar like tracking device to find specific locations. The kill X missions are never blatantly presented as "go there and kill X" or collect eggs to put them back into a ravens nest.

I mean even if you are forced to kill X in any MMO, TOR and TSW at least give you movie scene like story and interesting cutscenes to watch. GW2 puts two characters in front of a still background and that is quite below the 2012 standards set by TOR and TSW.

Conclusion, GW2 is standard 2003 questing with a new way how to receive quests, but very unsatisfying story presentation. The "innovation" award is not deserved by GW2, just by replacing questgivers by "dynamic" yellow circles, sorry

  Krytycal

Novice Member

Joined: 4/17/06
Posts: 527

9/11/12 5:51:52 PM#150
Originally posted by Misaris

THIS.

The quest presentation has changed, but not the activities you do. It is still the same thing you did in any other MMO. Nothing revolutionary or different than 10 years ago.

Originally posted by Torgrim

If you are so smart why don't you come up with something that's never been done before?

I´m not a game designer, but as a player I can say, there is nothing innovative about GW2 questing. Nothing. No mission to craft anything, no quest to investigate something or solve something in a challenging, non-combative way. No missions which make you interact with other players in some, new innovative way. And what bugs me the most, no brain puzzles like in Rift or Secret World (Jumping "Puzzles" don´t count sorry, I could as well hunt datacrons in SWTOR).

The only MMO which does those things to give you more variety in questing between the non-stop killing is Secret World. Quests involve crafting devices, solving puzzles, identify or scan mobs first before you need to kill them or use some sonar like tracking device to find specific locations. The kill X missions are never blatantly presented as "go there and kill X" or collect eggs to put them back into a ravens nest.

I mean even if you are forced to kill X in any MMO, TOR and TSW at least give you movie scene like story and interesting cutscenes to watch. GW2 puts two characters in front of a still background and that is quite below the 2012 standards set by TOR and TSW.

Conclusion, GW2 is standard 2003 questing with a new way how to receive quests, but very unsatisfying story presentation. The "innovation" award is not deserved by GW2, just by replacing questgivers by "dynamic" yellow circles, sorry

Inb4 someone tells you to stick to single player RPGs.

 

Apparently questing or "dynamic eventing" in MMORPGs should be all about killing 10 bandits and watering plants.

  VirusDancer

Novice Member

Joined: 11/18/04
Posts: 3684

Heroes are about character - not gear.

9/11/12 5:53:03 PM#151
Um...I did not read the article, and I do offer my apologies for that.  I only read the snippet, and well - I had to laugh.  I mean, coughing up a lung and snot dripping out my nose laughing.  The sheer audacity and blind ignorance of people making statements like that drives me apeshit...even 7 years later.  But then again, we all know that all of the games that came out years before WoW were just clones of WoW...right?  /sigh

I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  User Deleted
9/11/12 5:53:16 PM#152

"Quest Hubs Are Dead, Finally!"

 

Why wasn't I informed of the death of quest hubs? They are still there in almost every game. Am I to understand then when any game does something different, it "kills" the industry standard that it broke from?

 

It's pretty BIG HEADED to think that don't you think?

  Uraziel

Novice Member

Joined: 7/27/07
Posts: 188

9/11/12 5:58:10 PM#153

Well, MRKern,

I think you really picked a place to write your article, since MMORPG.com is most likely the single most hateful place in the MMO universe, so good luck with that.

 

I agree with many of the opinions here when they mention that hearts are basically covered up questhubs and lets be frank, most dynamic events aren't actually all that dynamic. They occur, always at the same place, always in the same order and most of them don't even have an order. They're one time things. That said, any form of  progress is a form of progress and it's at least an attempt to improve the current generation of MMO's.

 

That said, Firefall, well, it's just a grind isn't it? Just playing the Thumper game with gear as a goal instead of a means. Do you really think that's going to cut it once people find out that the tutorial is the only questline in the entire game?

 

Would have been more fun if the game continued the Cowboy Bebop vibe I was getting.

 
 
 

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5575

9/11/12 6:33:47 PM#154
Originally posted by Fadedbomb
Originally posted by grummz
Originally posted by Thillian

Saying WoW came up with quest hub just underlines the "quality" of the article.

Darkfall also suspended sales (probably too "niche" for the author). 

Anyway, hearts and DEs are actually quest hubs. Quests and quest hubs were not removed, just transformed into automated lore-less zerg fests. 

Hearts are DE's are not hubs. Hearts give you 2-3 tasks which all serve towards filling a bar and completion. DE's are single events. Quest hubs are like 3-8 NPC sitting around a POI that give you 8-12 quests. WoW was the first game to rely soley on quest hubs as the primary means of playing and progression (its the best XP), and really polished them and made them a consistent and dominant form of play.

There are several hearts that are like this within a given area. Essentially, you could take a "Zone" in GuildWars 2 to be a "Quest Hub" as it is so linear in design & laid out in plain numbers on the map to be considered otherwise.

How is it linear?  I'm a math geek so "linear" to me means point 1 to point 2 to point 3, and so on.  Which zones and heart quests are like this?  The only aspect I've seen that could be considered linear are the higher level zones have mobs that lower level players can't.  I would define that as gating and not describe it as linear.

I've seen you make these sorts of "just the same" claims in several posts and now I want to see some evidence.  You claim these are quest hubs, but I don't have to speak to an NPC to start or complete the quest.  Some NPCs require you to visit them for a special item or buff, but I haven't seen a clump of them as a hub that send you out through spokes to new hubs once you complete the chain.

Please do explain and support your claims.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5575

9/11/12 6:36:36 PM#155

"They did to the WoW formula what WoW did to the EQ formula."

I love this quote.  This nails it right on the head.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5575

9/11/12 6:40:54 PM#156
Originally posted by Psychow

"Quest Hubs Are Dead, Finally!"

Why wasn't I informed of the death of quest hubs? They are still there in almost every game. Am I to understand then when any game does something different, it "kills" the industry standard that it broke from?

It's pretty BIG HEADED to think that don't you think?

It's equally as BIG HEADED or small minded to think that doesn't ever happen either.  Some things are paradigm shifting.  People said the same thing about the Dungeon Finder too, but any major themepark coming out without one is nailed to the tree and castigated now.  How did no DungeonFinder work out for RIFT and TOR?  Why did LotRO and EQ2 add that after so many years absent them.  Because the LFD tool was the death knell for spamming LFG in chat.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  VirusDancer

Novice Member

Joined: 11/18/04
Posts: 3684

Heroes are about character - not gear.

9/11/12 6:45:02 PM#157
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by Psychow

"Quest Hubs Are Dead, Finally!"

Why wasn't I informed of the death of quest hubs? They are still there in almost every game. Am I to understand then when any game does something different, it "kills" the industry standard that it broke from?

It's pretty BIG HEADED to think that don't you think?

It's equally as BIG HEADED or small minded to think that doesn't ever happen either.  Some things are paradigm shifting.  People said the same thing about the Dungeon Finder too, but any major themepark coming out without one is nailed to the tree and castigated now.  How did no DungeonFinder work out for RIFT and TOR?  Why did LotRO and EQ2 add that after so many years absent them.  Because the LFD tool was the death knell for spamming LFG in chat.

Yep, DFTools killed the MMORPG genre.  Can't agree more on that one - major paradigm shift.

I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  Oleaginous

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/03/10
Posts: 1

9/11/12 6:45:41 PM#158
Originally posted by observer

A lot of you are missing the point entirely.  Hearts in GW2 are not quest hubs.  They are called Heart Tasks.  These tasks are not required to progress your level or character.  In GW2, you can level up efficiently by doing other tasks.  WvW, Gathering & Crafting, Exploring, Zone Completion, Vistas, Dynamic Events, Puzzles.  All these are alternative ways of leveling and progressing, which do not require Heart Tasks at all.

In WoW, and other MMOs, it is required to use Quest Hubs to level.  PvP is the exception, but the xp gain is too minimal anyway.

This so much. There is no need to stay on the same map and go from heart to heart. Those are more like guides to get you around the map. Even then, you can go to other zones and level there. Hell, you can be level 79 and go back to the starting zones and gain XP there too. There's no need to have to level in one place in a single fashion. 

 

And I really don't understand people complaining about tasks such as providing feed to cattle or pouring water on a burning haystack. You can do those things in between killing mobs. Variety. And if you actually speak to the NPC and read the text you'll know why you're doing it.

 

Dynamic events chaining together make "questing" feel more organic and yes, there's an entire story being woven together as they unfold if you pay attention to what the NPCs say and follow them around. Walls of text in other games? No thanks.

 

Been playing since the first day of head start and my highest level is 39. Just exploring, taking my time and actually paying attention to the NPCs has changed my outlook on MMOs. Simply cannot go back to how questing works in other games. 

 
 
 
  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5575

9/11/12 6:53:36 PM#159
Originally posted by VirusDancer
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by Psychow

"Quest Hubs Are Dead, Finally!"

Why wasn't I informed of the death of quest hubs? They are still there in almost every game. Am I to understand then when any game does something different, it "kills" the industry standard that it broke from?

It's pretty BIG HEADED to think that don't you think?

It's equally as BIG HEADED or small minded to think that doesn't ever happen either.  Some things are paradigm shifting.  People said the same thing about the Dungeon Finder too, but any major themepark coming out without one is nailed to the tree and castigated now.  How did no DungeonFinder work out for RIFT and TOR?  Why did LotRO and EQ2 add that after so many years absent them.  Because the LFD tool was the death knell for spamming LFG in chat.

Yep, DFTools killed the MMORPG genre.  Can't agree more on that one - major paradigm shift.

Whether you like it or not isn't the point.  Whether you think it is a good or bad change isn't the point.  Enough people like the feature for what it does in the environment in which it functions that it has changed dungeon/'raid driven themeparks forever.  Enough themepark gamers like that feature that the entire genre has changed to meet that expectation.

Time will tell, but I do think the author is correct on this one.  Enough people have been complaining about quest hubs, the exclamation point, and on rails game play that the entire genre is ready to change.  I don't expect every game to completely mimic the implementation but I do expect that it will change how most studios think about delivering quest content.  I also

think the playerbase overall will be less inclined to accept the !as a standard means of quest interaction.  Someone has shown they can deliver quests in a more seamless fashion.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  RoyalPhunk

Novice Member

Joined: 1/11/11
Posts: 181

9/11/12 6:55:41 PM#160

oh my this thread is popcorn worthy. Thrash harder haters and fanbois. This thread will have no effect (none at all)
on whether or not the next game to come out will have quest hubs. If GW2 is successful then you will see people try to jump on the bandwagon, if not then you will continue to see little dudes with ? marks over their heads. I am still waiting for this to become a "definition" thread and people start posting wikipedia definitions. 

I better not be out of popcorn its kitchen time.

 

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