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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » How big is the permadeath ultra hate is? PART 2

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73 posts found
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19928

10/02/12 10:35:08 AM#41

Optional permadeath works in D3. I don't see why it should not work in other games.

Sure, i will never play it .. but there are those who will.

  Zipp_23

Novice Member

Joined: 5/14/12
Posts: 25

10/02/12 11:18:17 AM#42

There are games based on PD - like DayZ (not a game, just a mod.. I know) and it has its fans (I play it too, and I enjoy it)

Also optional PD in D2/3 is a cool thing for me. Its a bigger challenge, you must play a different style (you kinda have to balance all your stats, you cant play just a pure "glass cannon" with no HP). I like it. BUT there is one big issue in D3 - your char CAN and most likely WILL sooner or later die coz of a lag spike or something like that. So IMO optional PD is a good thing, but not when you need to be constantly connected to net.

Coz when you play HC char in D3, you kinda count with fact that your char will die. But loosing your char coz of a net connection can realy piss you off.

  StonesDK

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/06/11
Posts: 1836

10/02/12 11:24:59 AM#43
Originally posted by madazz
Originally posted by Starpower
Originally posted by exdeathbr

Usually when talking about permadeath here, permadeath haters complain alot about permadeath, no matter what pemadeath system another user propose.

 

Nobody here complains about permadeath when brought up. When people dislike a feature they will tell you they don't like it and most likely, avoid the game that has said feature. That's hardly the same as complaining. That's just avoiding something you dislike.

 

People only complain about things they have to deal with in one shape or another. Permadeath isn't one of them. It's one of those things you can easily avoid

What forums have you been on? There are some that deal with it as you suggest, but overall I disagree. Look up any thread on open world PvP and read the complaints. 

Also, you aren't forced to deal with anything. If the game has something you don't like, don't play it. Simple as that. Too bad most don't see it that way.

That's a whole other issue isn't it? Not really about permadeath but more about 'argh!!! this shiny isn't made specifically for me like all games should' mentality, which I don't get either. You can pretty much extend those same whiners to any gamefeature that they disagree on.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19928

10/02/12 11:28:34 AM#44
Originally posted by Zipp_23

There are games based on PD - like DayZ (not a game, just a mod.. I know) and it has its fans (I play it too, and I enjoy it)

Also optional PD in D2/3 is a cool thing for me. Its a bigger challenge, you must play a different style (you kinda have to balance all your stats, you cant play just a pure "glass cannon" with no HP). I like it. BUT there is one big issue in D3 - your char CAN and most likely WILL sooner or later die coz of a lag spike or something like that. So IMO optional PD is a good thing, but not when you need to be constantly connected to net.

Coz when you play HC char in D3, you kinda count with fact that your char will die. But loosing your char coz of a net connection can realy piss you off.

One more comment about D3 HC char (note that i do NOT play HC). While it sounds like it is easy to die, there are many people make it to high level.

I just check on diabloprogress.com. The highest person make it to paragon level 89. There seems to be a lot make it to at least L60.

I suppose you have to play very very carefully.

  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

10/02/12 11:32:34 AM#45
Originally posted by exdeathbr
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by Thrennie
While it's not for me I don't see why they should not create perma death servers alongside RP and PvP/PvE. After all I believe that's what they did with EQ1.

The truth of it is the servers would be dead and it would be a drain of resources, that is why.

 

Some people think they want permadeath, but when they've spent 60 hours getting all that they have and then lose it all in an instant, needing to start over... they will quit. It also leads to more boring gameplay. Why would you ever take risks if the result could be losing everything? You wouldn't. You would spend your time leveling slower by killing lower level mobs to make sure you never even come sloe to dying. That will also cause people to get bored and quit.

When you play a permadeath game, you already know from the start you can lose everything, when you die. If you can't take it you dont play the game.

If you think you can take it, but after dying for the first time see that you can't, you say to yourself  "sorry but permadeath is too much for me, I will play another game"

The ones that will really play the game will not be angry, because they know from the start the game is like that, and if they are still playing its because they know they can handle it.

You first statement and second contradict.

 

The fact is most people who THINK they like this system will end up hating it. Gamers always think certain things sound great and should be implemented and then hate it when they run into it.

 

So the fact is that the server will start with a less than full population. As people realize how frustrating the system is they will quit and go to the option without permadeath and the server will die off.

 

 

There is also the fact that when there is an easier option at all, more people gravitate to it. If you made an MMO where on one server the quest NPCs had highlights, the spots were marked on a map, you got detailed dungeon maps etc etc with all the hand holding tools and then made a server where there wasn't a single hand holding tool. People would flock to the hand holding. Yet if you created the same game and didn't give the option of hand holding, the servers would be far more full than the non-handholding servers were with the option.

 

So just by having the option to play the same game without permadeath lowers the amount of people who will play with it.

  Beatnik59

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 2234

"Playing things I shouldn''t be playing since 1977."

10/02/12 4:24:39 PM#46

I don't think asking "how can we make death more 'painful'" is the right question to ask.

I think the question we should be asking is, "how can we make death more interesting?"  We never seem to ask that question, but it seems to me that this is the question some are trying to answer with "permadeath."

Because permadeath, all other things being equal, is just plain boring--and not only that--but I would argue it takes out any and every opportunity to make death interesting.

I liken it to a dungeon with a "perma lockout timer."  In other words, you can only do the dungeon once, and if you die, exit, or get booted out, your character won't be allowed in to reenter the dungeon.  Ever.

How does a perma-lockout timer make raiding more interesting?  It doesn't, really.  It increases the stakes, of course, but does raising the stakes, in this case, make raiding better?  I would argue that if raiding isn't better before perma-lockout timers, it won't be better afterwords and--if anything--will only make raiding worse.

And I imagine it would be the same thing with permadeath, but even more extreme.  Because, honestly, what is permadeath other than a simplistic attempt to mess with something that is pretty boring as it is?

See, I don't think anyone here would have a problem with harsh--perhaps extremely harsh--death penalties, but it would have to be interesting.  Does a resurrection require a special ceremony?  Player crafted goods?  A special quest?  A combination of all of the above?  If so, then death facilitates a minigame that gets people involved.

But permadeath?  It answers the question of "how do we make death interesting?" by refusing to even ask the question.

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  StonesDK

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/06/11
Posts: 1836

10/03/12 1:22:44 AM#47

Permadeath could work as a mainstream feature, but the progression system would have to be tweaked to accomodate it so it doesn't feel punishing.

 

Furthermore I also believe there's a way to actually make wanting to start over almost desired, if the gameplay gives you a unique experience every time worth discovering. But to pull those things off, the way MMOs are approached in development would have to be turned upside down and revised.

 

You would essentially have to sacrifice the fear of dying which is what permadeath advocates play for. Then the hardcore playerbase would complain how their beloved feature has been WoWified and cry about the feature becoming mainstream.

  RefMinor

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 3542

Hipster

10/03/12 1:57:20 AM#48
All those saying have a permadeath server  can it seems only imagine their own game with permadeath. A game with permadeath or meaningful PvP for that matter needs to built from the ground up with that in mind, not tacked on to a server of some random gear grind themepark.
  busdriver

Novice Member

Joined: 5/17/06
Posts: 923

10/03/12 2:51:33 AM#49
Originally posted by RefMinor
All those saying have a permadeath server  can it seems only imagine their own game with permadeath. A game with permadeath or meaningful PvP for that matter needs to built from the ground up with that in mind, not tacked on to a server of some random gear grind themepark.

Ditto.

OP's idea of a tacked on PD server is a really crappy idea.

 

  Zipp_23

Novice Member

Joined: 5/14/12
Posts: 25

10/03/12 4:35:06 AM#50
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Zipp_23

There are games based on PD - like DayZ (not a game, just a mod.. I know) and it has its fans (I play it too, and I enjoy it)

Also optional PD in D2/3 is a cool thing for me. Its a bigger challenge, you must play a different style (you kinda have to balance all your stats, you cant play just a pure "glass cannon" with no HP). I like it. BUT there is one big issue in D3 - your char CAN and most likely WILL sooner or later die coz of a lag spike or something like that. So IMO optional PD is a good thing, but not when you need to be constantly connected to net.

Coz when you play HC char in D3, you kinda count with fact that your char will die. But loosing your char coz of a net connection can realy piss you off.

One more comment about D3 HC char (note that i do NOT play HC). While it sounds like it is easy to die, there are many people make it to high level.

I just check on diabloprogress.com. The highest person make it to paragon level 89. There seems to be a lot make it to at least L60.

I suppose you have to play very very carefully.

Yes, I agree that you have to play very carefully :) Also I think that it is possible to get your char to very high level. But you need a bit of luck too. I remember when there was a lag spike on US server (before patch with paragon levels) that actualy killed few thousands HC chars in a few seconds :D. I bet many keyboards were broken in the very same time :D

  exdeathbr

Novice Member

Joined: 4/10/05
Posts: 120

 
OP  10/03/12 7:46:07 AM#51
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

You first statement and second contradict.

 

The fact is most people who THINK they like this system will end up hating it. Gamers always think certain things sound great and should be implemented and then hate it when they run into it.

 

So the fact is that the server will start with a less than full population. As people realize how frustrating the system is they will quit and go to the option without permadeath and the server will die off.

 

 

There is also the fact that when there is an easier option at all, more people gravitate to it. If you made an MMO where on one server the quest NPCs had highlights, the spots were marked on a map, you got detailed dungeon maps etc etc with all the hand holding tools and then made a server where there wasn't a single hand holding tool. People would flock to the hand holding. Yet if you created the same game and didn't give the option of hand holding, the servers would be far more full than the non-handholding servers were with the option.

 

So just by having the option to play the same game without permadeath lowers the amount of people who will play with it.

The lack of people on the permadeath server compared with the other one is not a problem. Also, in theory if this is a needed things to make the server exist (so, people not "ban" it), well thats the only thing that can be made.

Also, if most players that join the permadeath server think they can handle it, but see they can't and they leave, this is not a problem. I mean in theory this is a good thing, at least they tried the game.

 

Originally posted by busdriver
Originally posted by RefMinor
All those saying have a permadeath server  can it seems only imagine their own game with permadeath. A game with permadeath or meaningful PvP for that matter needs to built from the ground up with that in mind, not tacked on to a server of some random gear grind themepark.

Ditto.

OP's idea of a tacked on PD server is a really crappy idea.

 

But some would like this idea (permadeath in a grind game),  some would love the idea even if was just WOW with permadeath (without any gameplay other than that being changed).

So those guys would have a server to play and( with that idea I am posting here) would not influence other players that hate permadeath with their souls.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19151

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

10/03/12 8:17:49 AM#52

Can't say I'd play on a permadeath server. so I guess I'm a naysayer.

That said, for permadeath to really work I think a MMORPG needs to be designed around it, much as DAYZ is designed around it.

Just adding permadeath to a title such as WOW or EVE just makes no sense to  me.

IMO, a defining characteristic of a MMORPG is character progression.  Permadeath really removes this mechanic entirely, changing the game to something entirely different.

For one thing, you would have to play very, very carefully.  I never liked how having a "no die" acheivement in a MMO like LOTRO changed the behavior of other players, who literally would drop group if they felt it might jeapordize their title that they were striving for.

I'm all for reasaonable risk vs reward mechanics, but losing all your progression seems nonsensical to me in a MMORPG setting.

 

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, you speak as if these are bad things?
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  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

10/03/12 8:53:22 AM#53
Originally posted by Kyleran

Just adding permadeath to a title such as WOW or EVE just makes no sense to  me.

The part that bugs me about perma-death is how many deaths you experience that are entirely beyond your control; internet interruptions, something that FPS games are not subject to.  I died twice yesterday--yes, in PVE--just due to freezing in front of an already-aggroed mob that ate my face before I could even sign back in.

That doesn't happen in single-player games.  It can't.  Your relatives never "drop in" for visits, phone never rings, sudden case of the trots, dinner's on fire, etc. etc.  I get no "quick save" button in the MMO world.

Deaths I earned? Sure, I did something dumb.

Deaths due to my ISP or other entirely random events?  Uh, no.  No, thank you. 

Keep the idea in lag-proof single-player games, where actually it works.

 

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  strangewizard

Novice Member

Joined: 9/16/12
Posts: 42

10/03/12 9:51:11 AM#54

Permadeath is a great concept that more accurately reflects the human condition. If people can lose everything, they will treat everything much more seriously than if they can lose it all.

This is why people have no problem jumping off cliffs in MMORPGS or dying, because most have either no death penalty, or only a minor one that can easily be overcome with time (like XP loss).

Losing everything makes you develop a stronger love for your success, and makes you far less reckless.

This is a really interesting concept, because in real life, people don't typically do high-risk things that can easily kill you, as there is permadeath. I guess if in real life, people simply respawned (except maybe dying of old age), there'd be much more of a reckless atittude to life and death.

It changes how people treat you, also. If you get a high level or good gear or lots of gold on a permadeath server, you are really seen as great. On a non-perma death server, these things mean nothing, as anyone can do them given sufficient time.

Here, there is always the risk of losing it all, and I think that is great.

I disagree with your concept, because I think that if you cannot just lose it all out-right, it loses its value.

 

 

  strangewizard

Novice Member

Joined: 9/16/12
Posts: 42

10/03/12 9:52:21 AM#55
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Kyleran

Just adding permadeath to a title such as WOW or EVE just makes no sense to  me.

The part that bugs me about perma-death is how many deaths you experience that are entirely beyond your control; internet interruptions, something that FPS games are not subject to.  I died twice yesterday--yes, in PVE--just due to freezing in front of an already-aggroed mob that ate my face before I could even sign back in.

That doesn't happen in single-player games.  It can't.  Your relatives never "drop in" for visits, phone never rings, sudden case of the trots, dinner's on fire, etc. etc.  I get no "quick save" button in the MMO world.

Deaths I earned? Sure, I did something dumb.

Deaths due to my ISP or other entirely random events?  Uh, no.  No, thank you. 

Keep the idea in lag-proof single-player games, where actually it works.

 

If your ISP or life is that unstable, then you simply wouldn't play on such a server.

Your argument can easily be avoided by having stable servers, a decent internet connection, and reducing chaos in your life.

 

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19928

10/03/12 11:31:56 AM#56
Originally posted by Zipp_23
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Zipp_23

There are games based on PD - like DayZ (not a game, just a mod.. I know) and it has its fans (I play it too, and I enjoy it)

Also optional PD in D2/3 is a cool thing for me. Its a bigger challenge, you must play a different style (you kinda have to balance all your stats, you cant play just a pure "glass cannon" with no HP). I like it. BUT there is one big issue in D3 - your char CAN and most likely WILL sooner or later die coz of a lag spike or something like that. So IMO optional PD is a good thing, but not when you need to be constantly connected to net.

Coz when you play HC char in D3, you kinda count with fact that your char will die. But loosing your char coz of a net connection can realy piss you off.

One more comment about D3 HC char (note that i do NOT play HC). While it sounds like it is easy to die, there are many people make it to high level.

I just check on diabloprogress.com. The highest person make it to paragon level 89. There seems to be a lot make it to at least L60.

I suppose you have to play very very carefully.

Yes, I agree that you have to play very carefully :) Also I think that it is possible to get your char to very high level. But you need a bit of luck too. I remember when there was a lag spike on US server (before patch with paragon levels) that actualy killed few thousands HC chars in a few seconds :D. I bet many keyboards were broken in the very same time :D

No doubt. I am just saying it is possible. In fact, most good HC players probably take lag spikes into account. (For example, over-gear to kill just easy mobs who can't kill you in a million years).

 

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19928

10/03/12 11:33:28 AM#57
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Kyleran

Just adding permadeath to a title such as WOW or EVE just makes no sense to  me.

The part that bugs me about perma-death is how many deaths you experience that are entirely beyond your control; internet interruptions, something that FPS games are not subject to.  I died twice yesterday--yes, in PVE--just due to freezing in front of an already-aggroed mob that ate my face before I could even sign back in.

That doesn't happen in single-player games.  It can't.  Your relatives never "drop in" for visits, phone never rings, sudden case of the trots, dinner's on fire, etc. etc.  I get no "quick save" button in the MMO world.

Deaths I earned? Sure, I did something dumb.

Deaths due to my ISP or other entirely random events?  Uh, no.  No, thank you. 

Keep the idea in lag-proof single-player games, where actually it works.

 

Sure, you won't play it. Sure i won't play it.

But PD option is there. HC mode in D3. It is online. There is ISP/lag death. People still play it. So there are people who don't mind the risks.

In fact, D3 is particularly unforgiving. You die, you can lose a LOT of time.

  Cephus404

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

10/03/12 11:45:41 AM#58

Sure, have your permadeath server, I won't play on it at all.

Simple solution.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  Cephus404

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

10/03/12 11:51:25 AM#59
Originally posted by exdeathbr

The lack of people on the permadeath server compared with the other one is not a problem. Also, in theory if this is a needed things to make the server exist (so, people not "ban" it), well thats the only thing that can be made.

Also, if most players that join the permadeath server think they can handle it, but see they can't and they leave, this is not a problem. I mean in theory this is a good thing, at least they tried the game.

In the real world, it is a problem.  Servers cost money.  A company is not going to keep a server running if hardly anyone uses it.  It will close the server and fold the characters into another, non-PD server.

Face facts, there just aren't enough people in most games that favor PD that would make it a viable option.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  darkhalf357x

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/25/12
Posts: 1109

I'm only playing the role chosen for me. Who you supposed to be?

10/03/12 11:52:20 AM#60

Its not so much against the perma-death feature.  Its the mechanics of it.  In many games I have died due to reason out of my control.  Game freeze, lag, control not responding.   Here I would be pissed if I perma-died because of that.

Fix that (giving people options/opportunities to come back in those situations) and could be a better option.

But overall someone is not going to want to play a game for six months and then have to start all over again (trudging the same content most likely) because their sprite died.  I understand you are going for realism but where is the fun in that?  

To me games are meant to be played for relaxation and escapism.  I dont see perma-death anywhere in there...

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