Originally posted by Drachasor

Originally posted by moosecatlol

There are ways to manipulate aggro, and they're not as simple as doing the most damage. Once you figure out the aggro system, you'll find that the game is extremely easy.

As a Guardian, you're expected to have

- condition removal

- area denial

- sustain

- burst dps

- massive aoe dps Anything less than 260 range is melee as far I'm concerned.

- cc

If you're a guardian who doesn't have these, then good luck on Lupicus . If you're building around only one of these areas, then you're hardly what one would call optimal.

I find it a bit hilarious that less than 2 weeks into release you are declaring what a particular class MUST have for a particular fight.  Because surely no other build or playstyle could work, right?  And it must not matter who else is in your party either.  Seems absurd to me to be certain of anything like this at this point.  The meta is still in its infancy.

I find it interesting that you think the meta is something that is still being explored.

Yep no tanks tho. Had a fun time as support the other night killing a giant attacking a town. People kept moving out of the healing fields i  was creating with my turret and my elixir gun. oh well guess they'll eventually get used to it.

the giant started coming after me so i had to slow him down, move away and hide behind a building. Thank goodness for 0 aggro buildup. :)

Originally posted by moosecatlol

Originally posted by Drachasor

Originally posted by moosecatlol

There are ways to manipulate aggro, and they're not as simple as doing the most damage. Once you figure out the aggro system, you'll find that the game is extremely easy.

As a Guardian, you're expected to have

- condition removal

- area denial

- sustain

- burst dps

- massive aoe dps Anything less than 260 range is melee as far I'm concerned.

- cc

If you're a guardian who doesn't have these, then good luck on Lupicus . If you're building around only one of these areas, then you're hardly what one would call optimal.

I find it a bit hilarious that less than 2 weeks into release you are declaring what a particular class MUST have for a particular fight.  Because surely no other build or playstyle could work, right?  And it must not matter who else is in your party either.  Seems absurd to me to be certain of anything like this at this point.  The meta is still in its infancy.

I find it interesting that you think the meta is something that is still being explored.

Exactly tho we predicted people would be doing that too once in game. There's always elitest jerk theory crafters who want to cookie cutter us all to death in every game. oh well.

Originally posted by Yamota
You mean in the sense that they cant hold aggro? In that sense yes but you have far more tougher classes like the Guardian and Warrior than say an Elementalist.

Interesting, I've acted as tank for both AC and CM exploration modes with my Necromancer.

I have an Elementalist friend who runs straight support and can tank in a pinch if needed.

I have a Guardian friend who runs strictly as support and healing.

You don't seem very well informed at all, it's the most flexible class system this genre has seen within the last decade.

Originally posted by Elikal
There is no aggro holding and no dedicated healer. The skills in theory could allow some cooperation, but it takes WAY more constant awareness than the Trinity. Atm in the open world it works, because the masses of players simply out-DMG larger groups of mobs. I doubt more than a small percentage of MMO players are actually able to manage the complexity of this class system. But that's just my opinion.

I aggree with the underlined and when you said " I doubt more than a small percentage of MMO players are actually able to manage the complexity"  with how Guild Wars 2 makes a party manage themselves individually and as a group I completely agree and have seen people fail horribly because they can't unlearn what has been brainwashed into their gaming.

The title of this thread = "Problem with not having the trinity"  I think the problem is not the fact Guild Wars 2 does not have a set trinity its the fact that people refuse to learn a new way, a new interactive mechanic.   I think it is possibly to complex for a lot of people for them to even bother trying to do it correctly.

I still see so many people not using Dodge correctly and spamming it hoping that it randomly works... People still don't use their utility skills correctly either. 

Personally I love the challange its like doing a difficult RAID with a small group.

Originally posted by Apropo

Originally posted by Elikal
There is no aggro holding and no dedicated healer. The skills in theory could allow some cooperation, but it takes WAY more constant awareness than the Trinity. Atm in the open world it works, because the masses of players simply out-DMG larger groups of mobs. I doubt more than a small percentage of MMO players are actually able to manage the complexity of this class system. But that's just my opinion.

 

I aggree with the underlined and when you said " I doubt more than a small percentage of MMO players are actually able to manage the complexity"  with how Guild Wars 2 makes a party manage themselves individually and as a group I completely agree and have seen people fail horribly because they can't unlearn what has been brainwashed into their gaming.

The title of this thread = "Problem with not having the trinity"  I think the problem is not the fact Guild Wars 2 does not have a set trinity its the fact that people refuse to learn a new way, a new interactive mechanic.   I think it is possibly to complex for a lot of people for them to even bother trying to do it correctly.

 

I still see so many people not using Dodge correctly and spamming it hoping that it randomly works... People still don't use their utility skills correctly either. 

 

Personally I love the challange its like doing a difficult RAID with a small group.

I agree completely.  It seems some people who are stuck in the past and refuse to move forward, or at least try different methods or versions of the mmo.   You see this complaint with people talking about solo this,..grouping that..., trinity this.... , raid that.... I see a lot of people trying to bring old school mmos into the mix as if those are considered the benchmark of success or what an mmo is supposed to be and that all of us who played those older mmos all agree on these things.   We played those mmos back then and dealt with their mechanics because our choices were limited and we didn't know any better.   Now there is choice finally, and it's a good thing for all.

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Originally posted by Stx11

---

Originally posted by Yamota I have nothing against creating something else to replace the trinity system but however you cut it, you still need to either prevent or heal damage done and I cant see either of these roles being properly done by any class in this game. I mean which class can continously CC mobs to prevent damage? Or have bubbles which are up constantly? There is a sprinkle of these skills all over the place but not enough for properly managing the damage the party is being dealt and I am not sure how that is an improvment, it just makes you die more often because there is no consistent way of preventing or healing damage.

---

The word you are looking for is Teamwork.

Ranger drops a Healing Spring and Warrior steps in with Whirling Blades and you get a big AoE Combo Heal.

Mace & Shield Warrior uses his 3 second Block then rolls out of the way while it is on cooldown only for the Mesmer to step in with a Block or Bubble.

Top groups will have their players rotating Group Condition Clears (as they are the key Healing mechanic in the game) so somebody's is almost always off cooldown.

It is not "all DPS/all Zerg" in this game. They just went with a much more complicated model of coordination and control than "that guy gets beat on, this other guy heals everybody, and you pew pew."

Brand new game with a brand new system. Give it time for people to "L2P" just like it took months for all those people new to MMOs to learn how group play worked in WoW.

---

I am so glad that someone has managed to articulate this. I honestly think that most people overlook the importance of the teamwork aspect and understanding the correlation between the various class skills.

Practise is going to lead to better and better game play. If you play with one class using some different builds and weapons, some things are going to be different than in previous situations.

Playing solo or playing in an informal group is going to be very different from playing with a dedicated group or guild. Communicating with others will lead to far more success than the random pugs especially in a game where the classes are not limited by weapon, skill, and trait selection.

Perhaps in the future when and if a real build of the month arrives players might see more predictable outcome amongst the players but most people are still finding their own methods and ways to success.

Originally posted by Tafale

Originally posted by Fdzzaigl

I've tanked in tons of games, EQ2 (Shadowknight), WoW (Warrior), RIFT (Paladin), TOR (Vanguard), ... You can't tank like in those games here.

A tank who can't hold aggro solidly isn't a tank, the defining aspect of a tank is not that he can mitigate or avoid damage (that comes later), it is making sure the mob is hitting you and not anyone else first and foremost.

No matter what you say, I've seen bosses in explorable modes turn around and head off for a far away group-member randomly. The aggro list resets or updates in a different way in this game, which has good and bad aspects.

Most traditional trinity tanks are useless in holding aggro against a skilled DD (not holding back much, otherwise even a bad tank is "good" since the DD don't get aggro) so they're not actually tanks then?

 

I agree about trinity games having aggro tools to make it work a lot easier but just thought it was a bit funny as a traditional trinity DD player.

In what game? You ain't pulling aggro from a half-decent tank in WoW or Rift, for sure, TOR has also made it much more difficult to do so recently.

You know what I'm saying, tanks in those games have aggro-building tools that can make the mob focus them rock-solid as long as the DPS doesn't overdo it (and in some games, that isn't even possible).

Mobs in GW2 can be compared to the mobs that "switch" or "reset" aggro tables in instances in other games. Especially TOR has a lot of these (for example, trash in Kaon and in Karagga's). In those other games the tank would taunt to put himself back on top of the list until the next switch / reset. In GW2 the mob runs off and you have to kite.

There are disadvantages as well: sometimes the fights turn into annoying zergs, but in each case, it can't be compared to traditional tanking.

Holy crap, I found the Trinity in GW2.

Fort Trinity to be exact. Anyone else get a lol out of that and wonder if there's a little dig in the naming of that?

Originally posted by Stx11

Originally posted by Eluldor

I normally avoid "tank" classes, but I am going vitality/toughness guardian and it is pretty much a tank :) Other than shouting at npcs to hold aggro, I'm pretty sure it is all there. In a group, I pull large groups of mobs, initiate the combat, take the hits (and self heals), and give some boosts to everyone (shouts). Plus being melee and up front you aggro pretty much everything.

Going healing spec, you can get some decent healing, but seem to need another healing spec character to do well - for what I have seen.

Have you tried that in a Dungeon yet? Just a warning it might not work so well there...

Yes, I have. I jump out and let someone else take a few hits when need be, then I go back.

There is most defenatly 'tanks' and 'dps' in this game. Anyone saying differently obviously hasent rolled an elementalist and then rolled a warrior/guardian to see the difference. My guardian can sit on mobs like no bodys business. I can also keep aggro fairly well with a scepter/shield combo. Granted, some people can pull aggro if they kick it into gear, but how is that any different than a traditional trinity setup? You kick it into gear in those games and you can pull aggro as well.

I agree 100% with the poster. In a game where there wasn't suppose to be any 'role' setup for classes, there is most defenatly a hierarchy in this game. You notice this right away in the first dungeon of AC on Explorer mode. Have you tried doing burrow challenges with a pure melee group? It's litterally impossible. Suddenly you are forced into 'defined' group setup's. While a tank wasn't necessary, it certainly helped to have a 'tank like' class with you in the instance for a more structured combat. Otherwise, you just have people running in every direction, ressurecting when they can and kiting.

This is one of the things that I was very dissapointed with when I noticed it. I was really excited to see how they would balance the instances to provide 'any' possibilities with group make-up. However, this is a half-lie. There are most defenatly classes in this game that can take more hits than another class. There are 'glass cannons' and there are meat shields. This game is a far cry from what I imagined it to be.

Its a dumbed down version of the trinity system and thats it.

Originally posted by Coated

There is most defenatly 'tanks' and 'dps' in this game. Anyone saying differently obviously hasent rolled an elementalist and then rolled a warrior/guardian to see the difference. My guardian can sit on mobs like no bodys business. I can also keep aggro fairly well with a scepter/shield combo. Granted, some people can pull aggro if they kick it into gear, but how is that any different than a traditional trinity setup? You kick it into gear in those games and you can pull aggro as well.

I agree 100% with the poster. In a game where there wasn't suppose to be any 'role' setup for classes, there is most defenatly a hierarchy in this game. You notice this right away in the first dungeon of AC on Explorer mode. Have you tried doing burrow challenges with a pure melee group? It's litterally impossible. Suddenly you are forced into 'defined' group setup's. While a tank wasn't necessary, it certainly helped to have a 'tank like' class with you in the instance for a more structured combat. Otherwise, you just have people running in every direction, ressurecting when they can and kiting.

This is one of the things that I was very dissapointed with when I noticed it. I was really excited to see how they would balance the instances to provide 'any' possibilities with group make-up. However, this is a half-lie. There are most defenatly classes in this game that can take more hits than another class. There are 'glass cannons' and there are meat shields. This game is a far cry from what I imagined it to be.

Its a dumbed down version of the trinity system and thats it.

No.

i have a warrior.  If I try to go toe to toe with any dungeon mob and just exchange blows, I will be down in about 5 seconds.

Originally posted by Coated

There is most defenatly 'tanks' and 'dps' in this game. Anyone saying differently obviously hasent rolled an elementalist and then rolled a warrior/guardian to see the difference. My guardian can sit on mobs like no bodys business. I can also keep aggro fairly well with a scepter/shield combo. Granted, some people can pull aggro if they kick it into gear, but how is that any different than a traditional trinity setup? You kick it into gear in those games and you can pull aggro as well.

I agree 100% with the poster. In a game where there wasn't suppose to be any 'role' setup for classes, there is most defenatly a hierarchy in this game. You notice this right away in the first dungeon of AC on Explorer mode. Have you tried doing burrow challenges with a pure melee group? It's litterally impossible. Suddenly you are forced into 'defined' group setup's. While a tank wasn't necessary, it certainly helped to have a 'tank like' class with you in the instance for a more structured combat. Otherwise, you just have people running in every direction, ressurecting when they can and kiting.

This is one of the things that I was very dissapointed with when I noticed it. I was really excited to see how they would balance the instances to provide 'any' possibilities with group make-up. However, this is a half-lie. There are most defenatly classes in this game that can take more hits than another class. There are 'glass cannons' and there are meat shields. This game is a far cry from what I imagined it to be.

Its a dumbed down version of the trinity system and thats it.

So your telling me, that because some fights are not melee friendly, that auto makes it trinity based. Or that because one class can build tanky and tank more damage, it is a tank. I rolled a warrior, my warrior is level 80, bosses and mobs love to target me whether I go tanky or not. Does that mean my class is forced to tank no matter what... No, I just have to make sure I'm on my game avoiding as much damage as possible.

Now if you went into other instances, you can see the boss targets the NPCs far more often then the players, but still puts out things for the players to do as well. Some instances are tank and spank, most are finding the right spots to dps, mitigate damage and do objectives while fighting. Something that the trinity can't touch base as well because it is a system that requires the team to be more single skill oriented than group oriented. Tank soaks damage, healer heals tank/dps, dps damages. There is no variety in that.

And if you havent noticed, every class can be a glass cannon or a meat shield or anything in between, so I'm missing your point on how "this game requires a trinity." Trinity requires that each person only fulfill the roll given to them, but I can go out and change my playstyle on each and every fight depending on what the team is doing. If I want to get the bosses attention, I'll do that. If someone else wants to get the bosses attention I'll kill adds or dps boss. Saying that this game plays out like tank and dps with no middle ground is BS and you probably haven't played all of the instances to know that. I have played almost every one on story mode, mind you its story mode and thats not even a third of what dungeons have to offer, and I can say that they did a decent job with how they implemented bosses and the style at which you take them down.

Originally posted by Coated

There is most defenatly 'tanks' and 'dps' in this game. Anyone saying differently obviously hasent rolled an elementalist and then rolled a warrior/guardian to see the difference. My guardian can sit on mobs like no bodys business. I can also keep aggro fairly well with a scepter/shield combo. Granted, some people can pull aggro if they kick it into gear, but how is that any different than a traditional trinity setup? You kick it into gear in those games and you can pull aggro as well.

I agree 100% with the poster. In a game where there wasn't suppose to be any 'role' setup for classes, there is most defenatly a hierarchy in this game. You notice this right away in the first dungeon of AC on Explorer mode. Have you tried doing burrow challenges with a pure melee group? It's litterally impossible. Suddenly you are forced into 'defined' group setup's. While a tank wasn't necessary, it certainly helped to have a 'tank like' class with you in the instance for a more structured combat. Otherwise, you just have people running in every direction, ressurecting when they can and kiting.

This is one of the things that I was very dissapointed with when I noticed it. I was really excited to see how they would balance the instances to provide 'any' possibilities with group make-up. However, this is a half-lie. There are most defenatly classes in this game that can take more hits than another class. There are 'glass cannons' and there are meat shields. This game is a far cry from what I imagined it to be.

Its a dumbed down version of the trinity system and thats it.

Actually, the trinity system is more "dumbed down" than this. Having a character with ranged meleee in a group is practical for certain things that is true but with the right speccs and right weapons anyone 5 person group should be able to take a dungeon fine.

It is still not perfect, but it sure demands more thinking than the skill rotation and always knowing your place that most MMO have.

Warriors and guardians are the only classes I personally have seen specifically called for...

Make of that what you will.

What I will say though is now people know how to play more a dungeon like AC is not the carnage of multiple deaths it was at the start.

You can also make of that what you will.

To the person saying their warrior cant tank, you just suck.

To the person saying he's played every instance on 'story mode' you opinion is nothing without haveing experienced EM. Seriously, any odd variety of morons can do story mode and I wouldn't dare refer to 'lower' crap when i'm making my arugment.

To the last person. Go make an elementalist that is more 'tanky' than my guardian. If you do, You will be sacrificing all your damage, or something else. Where as my guardian still dishes out damage and doesn't sacrifice much. Actually, I'd still bet you couldn't get even close to the tanky ness of my guardian with even sacrificing everything of yours and putting it into tanking skills.

This game is very much a trinity-esk. However, as I said, you can still flail around randomly, everyone just randomly running around kiting and ressing people. How is this skillful? I find at times I don't even co-ordinate with people at all. Just as long as I'm kiting mobs and ressing when I need too, I can complete almost any instance.

Originally posted by Coated

To the person saying their warrior cant tank, you just suck.

To the person saying he's played every instance on 'story mode' you opinion is nothing without haveing experienced EM. Seriously, any odd variety of morons can do story mode and I wouldn't dare refer to 'lower' crap when i'm making my arugment.

To the last person. Go make an elementalist that is more 'tanky' than my guardian. If you do, You will be sacrificing all your damage, or something else. Where as my guardian still dishes out damage and doesn't sacrifice much. Actually, I'd still bet you couldn't get even close to the tanky ness of my guardian with even sacrificing everything of yours and putting it into tanking skills.

This game is very much a trinity-esk. However, as I said, you can still flail around randomly, everyone just randomly running around kiting and ressing people. How is this skillful? I find at times I don't even co-ordinate with people at all. Just as long as I'm kiting mobs and ressing when I need too, I can complete almost any instance.

When I play with guildies we coordinate very well, thankyou. Maybe you and your friends need a bit of training to cooperate?

Pugs is a different thing though but frankly have they always been somewhat random.

Originally posted by Coated

To the person saying their warrior cant tank, you just suck.

To the person saying he's played every instance on 'story mode' you opinion is nothing without haveing experienced EM. Seriously, any odd variety of morons can do story mode and I wouldn't dare refer to 'lower' crap when i'm making my arugment.

To the last person. Go make an elementalist that is more 'tanky' than my guardian. If you do, You will be sacrificing all your damage, or something else. Where as my guardian still dishes out damage and doesn't sacrifice much. Actually, I'd still bet you couldn't get even close to the tanky ness of my guardian with even sacrificing everything of yours and putting it into tanking skills.

 

This game is very much a trinity-esk. However, as I said, you can still flail around randomly, everyone just randomly running around kiting and ressing people. How is this skillful? I find at times I don't even co-ordinate with people at all. Just as long as I'm kiting mobs and ressing when I need too, I can complete almost any instance.

I'm sorry, I clearly misheard you. Didn't you say that every instance requires the trinity, and thus examples would suffice with proving my point? Oh, and I've done a few explorable modes. It's not any different.

I'm sure you can make a char as tanky as your guardian... but do I care to since I'm not supposed to tank damage in this game anyway? No.

Oh and as far as being bad for not being able to stand up in instances as a warrior while tanking trash... Sure if I went full tank build, full tank stats, full tank gear (probly tossing 2 variation of weapons with a shield so I have pure uptime on my defensive moves) I could tank better than any class and plop my ass in melee range for a long period of time.. But, that sounds boring to me, and is completely unnecessary for any fight I've actually seen. So building my class tanky so I can survive fights was only because I knew I would be honorary tank because I'm a warrior? Lol, or maybe because I like melee weapons like GS and 2 h hammer and it fits my playstyle.

Go find me a game where coordination is needed for easier instances and ones you can pug and I might give you a cookie.

Then go into explorable mode once and get your ass handed to you when you think that standing in front of a boss tanking aoe and falling to the ground to later get rezzed is a legit strat while I laugh at you while dancing around keeping my char alive actually performing what is necessary in a fight. Pretty sure your mentality will take you a long way in most cases. And I've had experience with people who build glass cannon because they are not a "tanky class" and expect someone like me to be their shield while I laugh at them as they wonder why they fall over dead so often.

Just because you play your guardian to fit the "trinity" system you describe, doesn't mean that the system is necessary to complete the instance or is more practical than anyone elses way.

Originally posted by Eir_S
People who say GW2 follows the typical Trinity apparently suffer from Stockholme Syndrome.  Stop trying to mash square peg into a round hole, it's not working, it's just messy.

Not sure who you are referring to but I did not say this game is a typical Trinity. What I said, or meant to say, is that the game has most roles in the trinity system, such as tanks, CC, melee/ranged DPS but they just removed the healer.

That and the fact that everyone is primary DPS are the main differences to the trinity system and I am not sure how this is better. For me who like to play non DPS classes it is definetely not better because I am forced into a DPS role.

And yes you can tank in this game, you can't use a taunt skill, but you can get a guardian or warriors geared and trained to take alot of damage.

PS  I am not sure you understand the Stockholm syndrome or I dont understand how you can associate this discussion with identifying and sympatizing with your kidnapper.