Originally posted by Yamota
You mean in the sense that they cant hold aggro? In that sense yes but you have far more tougher classes like the Guardian and Warrior than say an Elementalist.

Uh, that's not a tank... I don't NEED to read the rest of the thread, you were wrong in the first post.

Originally posted by Stx11

 

Sorry but this really sounds like somebody who has never played the game.

In WoW it is nothing more than "learn the dance steps" gameplay. My Guild had a total of one wipe in our first ever trip into Naxx80 and we were in Blues.

Nobody is posting in here about face-rolling the GW2 dungeons and how they are one-shotting everything. Pretty much the opposite.

It never fails to crack me up when somebody thinks that DBM-style gaming is somehow "high-skill" or "high-challenge" - and I'm not saying that GW2 PvE is "Dark Souls/make you cry" challenging either. It's definitely tougher than WoW when it comes to dungeon content though, and the content won't ever get trivialized due to gear-stat inflation as well.

Soo you think its complex ? 

You die alot so therefor it must be complex.  lol

Originally posted by Atlan99

Originally posted by Kuppa

There is definately an aggro system, just not one that can be used to tank effectively.

That's interesting considering we use the same tank for 90% of the dungeons runs we do. This tank manages to hold aggro on every boss with the odd exception that has different mechanics.

How exactly is this not tanking?

 If your tank is holding aggro and therefore soaking all of the damage from the MOBs, then how the heck is he not dying?

Originally posted by stayontarget

Originally posted by Stx11

 

Sorry but this really sounds like somebody who has never played the game.

In WoW it is nothing more than "learn the dance steps" gameplay. My Guild had a total of one wipe in our first ever trip into Naxx80 and we were in Blues.

Nobody is posting in here about face-rolling the GW2 dungeons and how they are one-shotting everything. Pretty much the opposite.

It never fails to crack me up when somebody thinks that DBM-style gaming is somehow "high-skill" or "high-challenge" - and I'm not saying that GW2 PvE is "Dark Souls/make you cry" challenging either. It's definitely tougher than WoW when it comes to dungeon content though, and the content won't ever get trivialized due to gear-stat inflation as well.

Soo you think its complex ? 

You die alot so therefor it must be complex.  lol

Read the other posts in the thread, eh?

Teamwork. Combo Field synergies. Everyone mitigating, clensing, debuffing, and dodging, while at the same time being the primary person responsible for their own health and staying out of fire. No "afk auto-follow auto-attack" dungeon runners here.

The ones who are dying a lot are those who simply can't beat a boss without DBM telling them where to go and what to do.

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Atlan99

Originally posted by Kuppa

There is definately an aggro system, just not one that can be used to tank effectively.

That's interesting considering we use the same tank for 90% of the dungeons runs we do. This tank manages to hold aggro on every boss with the odd exception that has different mechanics.

How exactly is this not tanking?

 If your tank is holding aggro and therefore soaking all of the damage from the MOBs, then how the heck is he not dying?

they probalby also have a "healer"....

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Atlan99

Originally posted by Kuppa

There is definately an aggro system, just not one that can be used to tank effectively.

That's interesting considering we use the same tank for 90% of the dungeons runs we do. This tank manages to hold aggro on every boss with the odd exception that has different mechanics.

How exactly is this not tanking?

 If your tank is holding aggro and therefore soaking all of the damage from the MOBs, then how the heck is he not dying?

Well this tank has tanking abilities that absorb damage. Pretty innovative, don't you think?

Originally posted by Atlan99

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Atlan99

Originally posted by Kuppa

There is definately an aggro system, just not one that can be used to tank effectively.

That's interesting considering we use the same tank for 90% of the dungeons runs we do. This tank manages to hold aggro on every boss with the odd exception that has different mechanics.

How exactly is this not tanking?

 If your tank is holding aggro and therefore soaking all of the damage from the MOBs, then how the heck is he not dying?

Well this tank has tanking abilities that absorb damage. Pretty innovative, don't you think?

You do understand his reference to the dps, tank and HEALER trinity, right?

More and more I see people (like, one player) effectively tanking champion mobs. And it seems to be working. A lot of dodges, a lot of support thrown their way, heals / turrets / elixirs... I have no idea how this is happening, but it seems to be working.

I thought there was no way you could hold aggro and thus tank a mob in GW2. Are my eyes deceiving me?

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by Atlan99

Originally posted by Creslin321?

You do understand his reference to the dps, tank and HEALER trinity, right?

We usually run with 2 healers. I thought it was obvious he was getting healed.

Edit:

Just to avoid further confusion we also brought some DPS.

Originally posted by Atlan99

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by Atlan99

Originally posted by Creslin321?

You do understand his reference to the dps, tank and HEALER trinity, right?

We usually run with 2 healers. I thought it was obvious he was getting healed.

ohh now you also have healers. This is definately worst than politics...

Originally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by sonoggi

Originally posted by Drachasor

Originally posted by sonoggi

there is absolutely no problem in not having trinity. "tanks" arent really tanks as they crumple under conditions. everyone has CC. 

basically, you can break the specs down to support, burst dps and sustain. but often, a spec can do two of those. 

Eh, despite what Anet says you really can't break it down into just 3 rolls as best I see it.

You have damage, everyone does that to some degree. - DPS

You have condition application, which some people do. - DPS

You have condition removal, which some people do. - SUSTAIN

You have boon application, which some people do. - SUPPORT

You have boon removal, which some people do. - SUPPORT

You have healing, which some people do. - SUSTAIN

There's damage avoidance, which everyone has to do (though some conditions and boons assist here). - SUSTAIN

There's damage mitigation, which is much like avoidance, but still different. - SUSTAIN

 

there. i get what youre saying though. there are MANY builds within those 3 categories. 

What's interesting is that my mesmer is actually an "all of the above".

Funny thing is that my Scepter/Dagger Elementalist can do it all too and still be effective at all of them. 

I can deal some burst damage in lighting & fire. Apply conditions in earth. Remove conditions whenever I switch to Water. Apply boons whenever I swtich to any attunement. Provide some fairly strong group heals every couple seconds. Avoid damage with my blinds and mitigate it with Weakness. So I certainly don't fall into any category of the trinity, yet my spec has proven to be incredibly effective in dungeons.

Sure it seems like I'm trying to be the jack of all trades and the master of none, which is generally a big "no no" in MMORPGs. However there's really a good synergy with the choices I've made with my build and it shows that you don't have to truly focus on 1 thing (e.g. dealing tons of damage) to be effective.

Originally posted by Fendel84M
Hate to burst your bubble, but there arent any tanks in GW2 either.

you are becoming a profesional bubble burster!

Originally posted by solarine

More and more I see people (like, one player) effectively tanking champion mobs. And it seems to be working. A lot of dodges, a lot of support thrown their way, heals / turrets / elixirs... I have no idea how this is happening, but it seems to be working.

I thought there was no way you could hold aggro and thus tank a mob in GW2. Are my eyes deceiving me?

What your are likely seeing is Over-leveled people downscaled to the area. On my lvl 40 Warrior I can handle lvl 15-25 Champions pretty easily with Dodging and Cooldowns without much(if any) support.

This does NOT work in the Dungeons though.

Originally posted by Stx11

Originally posted by solarine

More and more I see people (like, one player) effectively tanking champion mobs. And it seems to be working. A lot of dodges, a lot of support thrown their way, heals / turrets / elixirs... I have no idea how this is happening, but it seems to be working.

I thought there was no way you could hold aggro and thus tank a mob in GW2. Are my eyes deceiving me?

What your are likely seeing is Over-leveled people downscaled to the area. On my Warrior lvl 40 Warrior I can handle lvl 15-25 Champions pretty easily with Dodging and Cooldowns without much(if any) support.

This does NOT work in the Dungeons though.

This. Also, in low level areas, Champions are intentionally weaker than normal.

Originally posted by Fion

Yes GW2 has a 'lose trinity' of damage/support/control. Each profession can perform each roll quite well, and all three are needed to successfully complete the dungeons. As Fendel said, there are no tanks. You can certainly build up a very defensive characters but with no way to taunt or control agro, it is impossible to tank.

I notice a lot of folks having trouble with the dungeons, but more and more seem to be 'getting it', that the dungeons in GW2 are not faceroll easy instances where everyone just blasts through them without batting an eye like WoW. They take some skill, knowledge of your profession, complitent builds and above all, working together for the best results.

This ^

The problem w/ GW2 isn't that it doesn't have a trinity. It's that players are still trying to play it like it does. Hell, just yesterday I was playing on an alt, and /map chat was filled with people who honestly believed that the only viable role in GW2 is a glass cannon / damage build.

Rewind that to when I was running dungeons on my main, and I've seen countless numbers of people doing this, only to get 1 shotted when they go to the dungeons. Why? Because they have no health, they never bother to bring any sort of CC, and they are only focused on a 1-dimensional way of playing the game. The more challenging content of GW2 is VERY difficult for these types of people, if not impossible in certain cases.

This game actually demands that you re-evaluate your build at times. Someone posted a video of Kripporian trying to play through CM explorable (and getting his arse kicked). While it was cleverly edited, what it didn't show is how they beat most of the encounters. For example, the hallway full of traps & snipers / bombers at the end cannot be done by glass cannons. It's impossible. You need at least 1 person w/ strong gap closers and survivability. You also need some CC or else you get AoEd by the bomber at the end of the tunnel. Most groups I've been in still don't coordinate their skills, they never bother to change up their build for certain encounters, and they just try and zerg-fest everything.

Some fights that works, others it doesn't. The reason GW2 has a soft trinity, is that it has 3 very important roles, that everyone can fulfill at different times throughout the fight. Having the biggest numbers is often the easiest way to get killed in GW2.

Originally posted by Stx11

Originally posted by Drachasor

At random.  Really, really at random.

But it is certainly an interesting class.  Hmm, didn't think the Mesmer had a much going regarding condition removal or healing though, but I haven't played it extensively.

Not only does it have a great healing build (which was covered in a Thread that I can't find due to MMORPG's Search... not searching) but one of the core strengths of the Profession is swapping Boons and Conditions (stealing enemy Boons and transferring ally Conditions to enemies).

It definitely has a "random" element to it but I've found it plays pretty "smart" and fun - for example the Signet of Inspiration often gives you a speed boost out of combat making me think the randomness is weighted.

Swapping Boons and Conditions is a great way to remove conditions.  And I don't mean to imply the level of randomness is bad, not fun, or in any way results in a subpar character.

I guess I'm just trying to say that, based on what I know about the game, the D/CR/CA/BA/BR/H/DA/DR is something no one can do all the components of in every situation.  For instance, turning Conditions into Boons can be good at providing Boons, as like as the conditions are there.  Of course, it might not provide the Boons you really need.

I did leave out issues regarding Combos as well, which adds depth to the matter on a lot of levels -- I think it will be a month or two before I get fluent with how all the Combos work.

Let's see.  I think my initial characterization was not the best.

Let's specify a bit more:

(note: things that stack in intensity can have up to 25 stacks at once, but each element of that stack uses its own duration for determining when it goes away)

• Damage (D)
  • Everyone Does it to Varying Degrees
  • Some Skill Combos Apply here
  • Retaliation (Boon, stacks in duration)
    • When struck foe takes damage
  • Many Conditions
    • Burning (DOT, Stacks in duration)
      • Applies most damage with just one application
    • Bleeding (DOT, stacks in intensity)
      • Can do more than burning with many applications
    • Poison (DOT, stacks in duration)
      • Also reduces outgoing heals
      • Least damage (About 2 stacks of Bleeding)
    • Confusion (stacks in intensity)
      • Inflicts damage when enemy uses a skill
• Damage Amplification (DAm)
  • Not everyone does this, and some just provide it to themselves
  • Two Boons
    • Might (Stacks in Intensity, so the more you can get faster the better)
      • Increases Power and Condition Damage
    • Fury (Stacks in Duration)
      • +20% Crit Chance
  • Some Conditions
    • Crippled (stacks in duration)
      • Reduces movement speed by 50%.  Only if enemy is moving around a lot
    • Immobilized (stacks in duration)
      • Prevents enemy dodging and they can't move.
    • Vulnerability (stacks in intensity)
      • Each Stack increaes damage taken by 1%
    • Weakness (stacks in duration)
      • Half of non-crits are glancing blows (not applicable here)
      • Reduces Endurance Regeneration by 50%, lessens dodging
• Damage Avoidance (DAv) (e.g. not using on-hit resources and not being hit)
  • Dodging
  • Some Abilities like the Elementalist Swirling Winds (destroys all Projectiles in a wide area)
  • Two Boons
    • Swiftness (stacks in duration)
      • +33% movement
    • Vigor (stacks in duration)
      • +100% Endurance Regen for more dodging
  • Some Conditions
    • Chilled (stacks in duration)
      • Movement Speed and Skill Recharge Rate Reduced by 66%
    • Crippled (stacks in duration)
      • Reduces movement speed by 50%.  When Kiting.
    • Fear (Not Stacking)
      • Target Runs Direction Away from Caster
• Damage Reduction (DR)
  • Some Boons
    • Aegis (Not Stacking)
      • Blocks Next Attack
    • Protection (Stacks in Duration)
      • Incoming Damage reduced by 33%
  • Some Conditions
    • Blindness (no stacking)
      • Next attack misses
    • Weakness (stacks in duration)
      • Half of non-crits are glancing blows
      • Reduces Endurance Regeneration by 50%
• Healing (H)
  • Personal Healing (everyone has this)
  • Direct Heals (some can have this)
    • Abilities that heal others, duh.
  • Regeneration (Boon, stacks in duration)
    • Heal over Time
• Enemy Boon Removal (ABR)
  • Remove Boons
    • Primarily Necromancer and the Mesmer
    • Guardian has a traits that allow them to do this
  • Turn Boons to Conditions
    • Necromancer only, really
  • Steal Boons
    • Mesmer with a utility
    • Thief with a trait
• Ally Condition Removal (ACF)
  • Remove Conditions
    • Every class can POTENTIALLY get an ability that does this for themselves
    • Elementalist and Guardian have a lot for this
  • Turn Conditions into Boons
    • Primarily the Necromancer for affecting others
  • Move Conditions from Allies to Enemies
    • Mostly Necromancer stuff

Of course, even D/DAm/DAv/DR/H/EBR/ACF perspective has a lot of a complexities.  How much and what kind of each will depend on the group, dungeon, etc.  But I think the fundamental point is that I don't see how any ONE class and build could provide everything that is needed here.  Mesmers can cover a fair bit in various ways and be very useful, but they can't bring everything.  That's what I meant to get at.

This is especially true when one considers the duration of a lot of boons and how often some conditions can be applied by enemies.

Originally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by Drachasor

At random.  Really, really at random.

But it is certainly an interesting class.  Hmm, didn't think the Mesmer had a much going regarding condition removal or healing though, but I haven't played it extensively.

 

Not completely at random, but some things to add random elements. For condition removal I keep Null Field as a utility. It removes all conditions on allies and all boons on enemies in its area of effect. Having phantasms traited to provide regeneration on allies near them gives bonus healing, and the beauty of that is that you don't even have to change how you were playing... add the trait and you have added healing. (Caveat, I always have at least one phantasm up, usually more when I'm scepter/pistol.)

 

Cripples on the enemies can easily be planned (greatsword skill 4) or quasi-random (traited clones to cripple on shatter) plus clones can be traited to remove a boon from the enemy on shatter as well.

 

Other utilities I'm using and enjoying atm are the reflective bubble (cast around foe, reflects all projectiles back to the foe: Mitigation + damage) and... crap, hang on let me think... ah yes, right now the utility that produces two clones for more added shatter benefits at will. Nothing like a Mind Wrack, hit "8" (where I have it at) then an interrupt, or even distortion at need.

I probably overemphasized the randomness a tad.  My mistake.  The Mesmer definitely seems like a very interesting class to play and I look forward to playing mind.  A lot of classes have some pretty potent combinations.

An Elementalist at 80, for instance, can be made to constantly keep Fury (+20% crit) and Swiftness up on a group -- as well as frequently given allies Fire Shield (or potentially other auras).  The same build can also heal, put regen, and cure a condition on all nearby allies when attuning to water (as well as might went attuning to fire and protection when attuning to earth).  That's not really even touching on what weapon they'd use and they'd have a fair degree of freedom with skills (they'd just need a couple signets).

So I think everyone has some very potent builds.  But you still can't do all of the support yourself.  I think one person might be able to handle all or most of the healing, depending on how good the group is at avoiding/reducing damage (which can also be increased).

Originally posted by Master10K

Funny thing is that my Scepter/Dagger Elementalist can do it all too and still be effective at all of them. 

 

I can deal some burst damage in lighting & fire. Apply conditions in earth. Remove conditions whenever I switch to Water. Apply boons whenever I swtich to any attunement. Provide some fairly strong group heals every couple seconds. Avoid damage with my blinds and mitigate it with Weakness. So I certainly don't fall into any category of the trinity, yet my spec has proven to be incredibly effective in dungeons.

Sure it seems like I'm trying to be the jack of all trades and the master of none, which is generally a big "no no" in MMORPGs. However there's really a good synergy with the choices I've made with my build and it shows that you don't have to truly focus on 1 thing (e.g. dealing tons of damage) to be effective.

Right, I've modified it a bit.  But my main point is that no one can do it all sufficiently by themselves.  And I agree everyone needs to be a hybrid of some sort.

Well, I guess I have a few main points.

I don't think you can specialize to handle all of any job by yourself.  Heck, you can't even really specialize in just one thing, even damage.  You'll always have other abilities which will have their uses.

Trying to specify a "Trinity" in GW2, even with Control, Support, Damage is not a helpful way to look at the game and group dynamics.  It seems clear to me that different sorts of groups will emerge that lean on some boons/conditions/etc more than others and find some boons and conditions of minimum help/harm.  In other words, getting a group to work will be more about finding synergy in abilities and strategy and adapting your build to the group.  Some of this will be in making sure enough "support" and "control" are brought, but what precisely that means depends on the group to an extent.  Some of it will also be in ensuring the group can handle conditions and enemies with boons.

In a game like WoW, you can clearly say it has a Trinity.  Healing classes ALL bring certain elements to the table.  Certain buffs can easily be found from multiple sources.  All Tanks have the same set of abilities as well.  The combat, class system, etc are all designed so you have little more to do then get sufficient tanks, sufficient healers, and the rest DPS.  At most you might need to ensure one of many options to get an assumed buff, but this almost always takes care of itself.  That sort of thing is now what is going on in GW2 as I see it.  Group builds and group dynamics are more complex as are their interactions.  There's a great deal of depth here due to the design.

And I just realized in my above long thing I left out combos again.  But Setups and Finishers are a somewhat complicated subject, I believe.

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by waynejr2

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by pags411

I don't think that's the intent.  The idea is that you don't have players who are dedicated to roles in a way that mandates specific compositions of groups and specific specializations of each class.  In other words, a "healing class" would be considered worthless if they wanted to spec for damage in the old model using a trinity.  This game precludes this by saying there is no damage/healing dynamic.  It's reworked to by focused on ideas of damage, control and support which are executed by all players in varying capacities.  It's not that they've removed the need for healing and damage mitigation, but they've redefined and redistributed these responsibilities amongst the entire group and instituting a more democratic approach to group play.  You can't just worry about topping off health bars or holding aggro or maintaing your dps rotation.  You have to pay attention to you, your allies, your enemies, what's happening, what's about to happen, etc.  It feels much more engaged.  It reminds me a lot of playing Halo with friends online. 

 

I don't think this is an innovation that should be widely adopted by every game going forward.  However, I'm very pleased with the step in a distinctly new direction with respect to class roles.  I am interested to see how dungeons feel to me.  Some people love it and others hate it.  I'm inclined to think I'll prefer it simply because I'm so exhausted with the tank and spank approach to PvE.  I think the old paradigm of MMOs will be around for a long, long time, but I'm hopeful that we'll see more companies trying to do things differently.  It's how games have progressed since the beginning of games.  How could Pong turn into Resident Evil if developers never challenge conventions and imagine bold, new things?

I have nothing against creating something else to replace the trinity system but however you cut it, you still need to either prevent or heal damage done and I cant see either of these roles being properly done by any class in this game. I mean which class can continously CC mobs to prevent damage? Or have bubbles which are up constantly?

There is a sprinkle of these skills all over the place but not enough for properly managing the damage the party is being dealt and I am not sure how that is an improvment, it just makes you die more often because there is no consistent way of preventing or healing damage.

Did you ever play city of heroes?  You could run instances without tanks and healers.

I played CoH extensively and the reason you could survive without a healer, on tougher instances, was if you had a really good CC. On easier instances it was possible because mobs are so weak that you can spread the damage.

However, for the record, CoH had dedicated healer and tanks and they were quite effective.

Sorry to say but that one is false i have seen my friend do the hardest instance in Coh with only blasters ei glass canons

Originally posted by Yamota

One of GW 2 "features" is that it does not have any trinity system of tanks, healers etc but the problem, from what I have experienced so far, is that it has replaced it with tank, damage, CC but just removed the healer and allowing everyone to have self heals, with long cool down and some classes to have some limited healing.

Not sure I see the improvment here. I heard that this is supposedly be replaced by classes which can prevent damage but which class is so good at preventing damage so to not need healing? 

i will answer from the above link

Dungeon Defending

<<

Some of the key elements people need to learn are:

1. Knowing complimentary builds/skills based on the other professions with you.
2. Knowing your own profession, its limitations and strengths.
3. Knowing when to dodge (absolutely paramount).
4. Knowing when to attack and retreat.
5. Knowing when to revive a fallen party member.
6. Knowing when to use your heal and not waste it.

Guild Wars 2 differs in that a group’s success or failure can no longer be attributed to the individual (tank or healer) and instead is a collective effort by all.  Accepting responsibility for your own healing, your own avoidance of damage through dodging and your own reactions to revive downed party members quickly is what Guild Wars 2’s dungeons are all about.  Failing to do just one of the six above will, like other factors mentioned, see you fail repeatedly.  I think that to many players can be hard to stomach, especially when the blame might lye at your own feet rather than at someone else’s.

>>

Originally posted by Stx11

Originally posted by solarine

More and more I see people (like, one player) effectively tanking champion mobs. And it seems to be working. A lot of dodges, a lot of support thrown their way, heals / turrets / elixirs... I have no idea how this is happening, but it seems to be working.

I thought there was no way you could hold aggro and thus tank a mob in GW2. Are my eyes deceiving me?

What your are likely seeing is Over-leveled people downscaled to the area. On my Warrior lvl 40 Warrior I can handle lvl 15-25 Champions pretty easily with Dodging and Cooldowns without much(if any) support.

This does NOT work in the Dungeons though.

Yeah, that's probably it. I'll admit I didn't check their levels.

Though I know there's this part of me that'll be glad to learn *any* sort of applicable tanking mechanics exist in this game. I guess I just like concept. :)