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Official MMORPG.com Guild »  PvP »  World vs. World  » WvW requires an overhaul, not tweeks.

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67 posts found
  SethiusX

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/08
Posts: 171

9/06/12 8:42:03 AM#21
Originally posted by WoW_Refugee
Originally posted by SethiusX
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Sethius:
As a mesmer I can make my clones boon allies and condition enemies when they die.

So when people spam aoe, my weak clones die before any player, booning my allies so they take longer to for and applying all sorts if conditions on the attackers.

Other classes have anti-aoe too, e.g. necros.

Yet AoE spam kills the group 9 out of 10 times. I think it is better to use AoE spam when defending and destroy the group. If this changes as Mesmers get smarter, I'll retract that, but right now, AoE spam works.

AoE spam dominates, actually.

I concur with this statement.

  TheIronLegion

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/06/12
Posts: 270

Act with wisdom, but act.

9/06/12 8:42:40 AM#22
Originally posted by krakra70

The biggest problem with WvW is they copied too much stuff from DAoC but forgot the most important things: realm points, realm ranks, darkness falls, 8man groups(funny how they existed in GW1), long duration CC (so skill > number of people). DAoC RvR worked because the most rewarding thing was killing other players, taking keeps was secondary.

Playing in an underpopulated realm was a privilege, not a handicap. Most people who changed realms/servers went to the underpopulated one so they have more enemies (=rps) and less allies to compete with. Keep takes were also more fun because they had bigger consequences (relics, DF), and you didn't have to keep attack all day so you wouldn't get bored of them.

 

WvW can be saved. All it needs is a rank system(with a small power progression - yes your char should be getting stronger) for enemy kills and not for keep takes/objectives and better optimization in WvW areas and especially big fights. They need to take the focus from objectives to PvP. Then we might see something other than zergs running around.

I think it's all a matter of how you want to experience it. Some people don't want to just sit and mindlessly kill others. Some want objectives and want to own something and have stake in something. Not just go out and "Pwn Noobs", as the saying goes. WvW in GW2 isn't about you. It's not about your gearscore, or your ability to take on 5 players at once, or you being top ranked player on the server or whatever some people get a yiffy off of. It's about cooperation. Guild Wars 2 as a whole is about cooperating with others and teamwork.

Personal Opinion: Taking a keep and then holding it against wave after wave of crusaders is more enjoyable to me than killing some guy on the side of the road while he was getting a mining node or while he was typing a funny story to his guild mates.

I think certain people will enjoy it. Just because you don't like things about it doesn't necessarily mean that all its strengths are its weaknesses(Not that you said that explicitly).

Edit:

To the AOE and Ranged comments. If I'm not mistaken every class has some form of ranged abilities and just about all of them have AOEs. So I fail to see how anyone is at a serious disadvantage. Sure you may not be able to lay down the massive "Deeps" you want to and you might not be able to make it rain in this [insert fluffy word here], but you can certainly be of use to your team and help.

  krakra70

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/05/12
Posts: 127

9/06/12 8:47:56 AM#23
Originally posted by TheIronLegion
Originally posted by krakra70

The biggest problem with WvW is they copied too much stuff from DAoC but forgot the most important things: realm points, realm ranks, darkness falls, 8man groups(funny how they existed in GW1), long duration CC (so skill > number of people). DAoC RvR worked because the most rewarding thing was killing other players, taking keeps was secondary.

Playing in an underpopulated realm was a privilege, not a handicap. Most people who changed realms/servers went to the underpopulated one so they have more enemies (=rps) and less allies to compete with. Keep takes were also more fun because they had bigger consequences (relics, DF), and you didn't have to keep attack all day so you wouldn't get bored of them.

 

WvW can be saved. All it needs is a rank system(with a small power progression - yes your char should be getting stronger) for enemy kills and not for keep takes/objectives and better optimization in WvW areas and especially big fights. They need to take the focus from objectives to PvP. Then we might see something other than zergs running around.

I think it's all a matter of how you want to experience it. Some people don't want to just sit and mindlessly kill others. Some want objectives and want to own something and have stake in something. Not just go out and "Pwn Noobs", as the saying goes. WvW in GW2 isn't about you. It's not about your gearscore, or your ability to take on 5 players at once, or you being top ranked player on the server or whatever some people get a yiffy off of. It's about cooperation. Guild Wars 2 as a whole is about cooperating with others and teamwork.

Personal Opinion: Taking a keep and then holding it against wave after wave of crusaders is more enjoyable to me than killing some guy on the side of the road while he was getting a mining node or while he was typing a funny story to his guild mates.

I think certain people will enjoy it. Just because you don't like things about it doesn't necessarily mean that all its strengths are its weaknesses(Not that you said that explicitly).

You obviously haven't played DAoC. "mindlessly killing others" exists in games like WoW and GW2, but not in DAoC. Even zerging was tactical and most of all FUN since the game was designed for massive PvP unlike GW2. Flanking, overextending etc are foreign words in gw2 but I saw it in almost every fight in daoc.

 

BTW if taking a keep is more fun than killing a player for you then you obviously aren't a PvPer.

  WoW_Refugee

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/01/05
Posts: 81

 
OP  9/06/12 8:55:54 AM#24
Originally posted by TheIronLegion

Edit:

To the AOE and Ranged comments. If I'm not mistaken every class has some form of ranged abilities and just about all of them have AOEs. So I fail to see how anyone is at a serious disadvantage. Sure you may not be able to lay down the massive "Deeps" you want to and you might not be able to make it rain in this [insert fluffy word here], but you can certainly be of use to your team and help.

As a Guardian, I have ranged attacks, yes. I even have a ranged AoE. One. It has a tiny l'il footprint though. You can stumble out of it in no time.

Contrast that with the constant rain of Meteor Showers, arrows from Barrage (which cripple no less), and the regular auto-attacks from the ranged classes and well...tthe disparity just becomes more obvious. Plus, is that really the answer? That my meant-primarily-to-be-a-melee class has to resort to going ranged, as well, because everyone else and their uncle is too?

You know what the most common comments I hear are when our keep is being sieged?

"#$%!, how many elementalists do they have, anyways?"

"#$$@$ ranger spam, this is bull----"

You never hear anyone complaining about the warriors or the Guardians and thei l'il scepters...

 

 

  RizelStar

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/11
Posts: 2824

We all breathe and we all die.

9/06/12 8:58:08 AM#25
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Changes I would make to WvW
Open warband system from warhammer (also for pve)
Ability to flag your name on
Pvp ranking for more COSMETIC rewards e.g. trophies like in warhammer, special emotes you can do before charging in, titles, different skinned siege weapons.
Perhaps some way to lock down a map and open up a darkness falls type open pvp dungeon like daoc.(that other servers can lock after and cone clear you out of the dungeon)

Not just WvW, but number 1 problem with gw2, let me turn off bloody mouse smoothing.

I agree with these, what's highlighted in red, I bet this will happen, least from my understanding GW1 did it aswell. Though far as emotes it was dances and what not.

 Also am I the only one who notices how the OP complaints actually conflict with each other and are solutions to one another.

If correct he complained about how servers are imbalance there fore (More members higher chance of winning)

Then complained about server matching...

Rest of his points been touched, also i play a melee based guardian in WvWvW.

I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16835

9/06/12 9:01:35 AM#26

The server transfer thing cant really be solved any other way. Or would you only let people choose a single server once and make it so they never could change?

My guild got stuck on 3 different servers and have now moved to a smaller pop one so we can play together. Once the pairing becomes a bit fairer in a few months that will fix a lot.

As for melee, it actually is very powerful but harder to become good at, but in zergs any AoE will be rather powerful. They do need to change the reward somewhat so zerging will be less rewarding than small groups but I would still call that a tweak.

Reward players more who work in smaller groups and I think a lot of the problem will fix itself. But then, that is just a theory.

  WoW_Refugee

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/01/05
Posts: 81

 
OP  9/06/12 9:03:26 AM#27
Originally posted by RizelStar
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Changes I would make to WvW
Open warband system from warhammer (also for pve)
Ability to flag your name on
Pvp ranking for more COSMETIC rewards e.g. trophies like in warhammer, special emotes you can do before charging in, titles, different skinned siege weapons.
Perhaps some way to lock down a map and open up a darkness falls type open pvp dungeon like daoc.(that other servers can lock after and cone clear you out of the dungeon)

Not just WvW, but number 1 problem with gw2, let me turn off bloody mouse smoothing.

I agree with these, what's highlighted in red, I bet this will happen, least from my understanding GW1 did it aswell. Though far as emotes it was dances and what not.

 Also am I the only one who notices how the OP complaints actually conflict with each other and are solutions to one another.

If correct he complained about how servers are imbalance there fore (More members higher chance of winning)

Then complained about server matching...

Rest of his points been touched, also i play a melee based guardian in WvWvW.

How do they conflict with one another? If a) one serrver dominates, causing b) players to leave the losing server and go to the dominant server...how does this balance things out?

If a weak server loses most of its dedicated PvPers because said PvPers are sick and tired of getting rolled by stronger guilds on stronger servers, how do things balance out?

I'm not sure how the problems I listed countradict one another...maybe you could explain?

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16835

9/06/12 9:04:45 AM#28
Originally posted by RizelStar

I agree with these, what's highlighted in red, I bet this will happen, least from my understanding GW1 did it aswell. Though far as emotes it was dances and what not.

 Also am I the only one who notices how the OP complaints actually conflict with each other and are solutions to one another.

If correct he complained about how servers are imbalance there fore (More members higher chance of winning)

Then complained about server matching...

Rest of his points been touched, also i play a melee based guardian in WvWvW.

Titles, armors and weapons do exist, you create them (except the titles) at the mystic forge with stuff you get in game.

But more stuff will surely be added with time and siege weapon skins is a cool idea.

  WoW_Refugee

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/01/05
Posts: 81

 
OP  9/06/12 9:05:31 AM#29
Originally posted by Loke666

The server transfer thing cant really be solved any other way. Or would you only let people choose a single server once and make it so they never could change?

I'd make it so said transfers weren't free and available during the launch phase of the game...only later, when populations had settled down some.

As it is right now, people are just hopping form one server to the next everytime they see that one's stronger than the others. Result; strong servers get more PvPers, weaker servers get weaker.

EDIT: For context; my server, Dragonbrand, has seen a great many people migrate to other servers just because of how often we got crushed by servers with dedicated, large scale PvP guilds. As a result, we now routinely get camped into our spawn point and "farmed" a great deal. Just 5 days ago, we were able to field enough players to match a "hardcore" PvP server blow-for-blow; now we're lucky to see 20 people at once. Repeated boot stompings led most of our good PvPers (but not all) to leave for other servers.

  Tawn47

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/27/07
Posts: 515

9/06/12 9:11:33 AM#30
Originally posted by WoW_Refugee

It's beautiful in concept, and lots of fun some of the time. However...

1- As expected, the side with the bigger zerg usually wins.

2- As expected, combat is dominated by ranged AoE attackers (elementalists and rangers mainly). Melee are at a severe, crippling disadvantage.

3-  As expected, the age old problem of AoE attacks hitting defenders thru solid objects remains (try repairing a keep door).

4- Most egregiously, and again as expected, free server transfers have weakened already weaker worlds by allowing players to transfer onto the very worlds previosuly dominating them.

And please, don't try to impress me with the tales of how your small valiant band broke up a larger group this one time. Yes, it happens. More often than not, though, you end up dead when their 20 meet up with your 8.

3 is just a bug and 4 will be lessened when there are no free transfers..  but in any case the server matchups are based on performance, so it doesn;t matter.

1 & 2.  Well I think your problem is that you hang around with the zergs too much.  Frankly I love my greatsword guardian, yes in WvW too..  melee strugles in a zerg-on-zerg battle.. but not in smaller skirmishes.  The zerg is mindless, that is it's weakness.. you cant just fight toe to toe with it, you gotta go around it or do something clever...  what have you tried so far?

  BigCountry

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/31/05
Posts: 481

9/06/12 9:13:45 AM#31
Originally posted by ellobo29

Yes WvW requires an overhaul but not for any of the reasons you stated......

right now on my server its an 8hour que wait to get into wvw and that is just unacceptable.... at least thats how long its been taking me to get in.

Dont ever worry about getting in with your guild mates seeing how queing is so long. So what you get is a big zerg that floats around aimlessly with little to no dirrection. And then ppl start complaining about direction and bickering.

Last night it took me 6hours to get in.... once i got in wvw i seen people do nothing but argue the whole time about what to do next, where to go, why we are losing/winning i got demotivated and just logged off after waiting all that time to get in.

Yes it took me 6hours to just be givin the chance to do the very thing i bought the game for. if i had it my way i would be spending 70% of my time in wvw and 30% of my time doing pve. unfortunatly thats not possible.

 

/this

 

It fuking sucks. Noone bought this game to PvE, yet that's what we are all stuck doing atm......and it's boring.

 

"Queue Wars 2"

BigCountry | Head Hunters | www.wefarmpeople.com

  User Deleted
9/06/12 9:20:29 AM#32
Originally posted by Sentime
WvW is in paid alpha state.  Enjoy your time.

I know I should not answer such an obvious bait, and I honestly don't expect sentime to even answer my question, but if WvW in GW2 is in "alpha state", how do you rate Ilum in SW:TOR?

  SethiusX

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/08
Posts: 171

9/06/12 9:29:54 AM#33
Originally posted by The_Korrigan
Originally posted by Sentime
WvW is in paid alpha state.  Enjoy your time.

I know I should not answer such an obvious bait, and I honestly don't expect sentime to even answer my question, but if WvW in GW2 is in "alpha state", how do you rate Ilum in SW:TOR?

I think you're right that you shouldn't answer an obvious bait.

Anyway, WvW might not be perfect, but it's pretty good and it just came out, so I think there will probably be changes as time goes on.

I'm not knocking TOR, cause for what it's worth the game is not that bad and has some fun to be had, but they tried the world pvp thing, they then kept trying and kept trying, and kept failing and kept failing. Ilum was terrible. Do not want.

Ilum was ok in theory, but it never even worked at all ever. Even when a few people used to play at release in Ilum, most people couldn't get performance enough to move let alone pvp.

  Worstluck

Novice Member

Joined: 1/29/11
Posts: 1280

No man controls my destiny... especially not one who attacks downwind and stinks of garlic.

9/06/12 9:42:58 AM#34
I've only seen WvWvW twice in my playing time of 100 hours.  The queues are ridiculous.  After being queued for six hours at one point over last weeekend I have given up.  I am glad some of you get to experience it...I can't even complain about it or suggest fixes to any of it's issues because I can't experience it.  Maybe someday I guess!

  st4t1ck

Novice Member

Joined: 7/24/10
Posts: 585

9/06/12 9:43:53 AM#35

i dont get why everyone hates the zerg but continuosly follows it around.  my guild gets so much done in small groups of people that helps the zerg take keeps.  by placing seige weapons in the right place, keeping supply depots, scouting out enemy zergs and so on.

when a zerg is figting at a door i usually strategically place a catapult in a corner of the other side and break the wall down, on bigger keeps it almost always works.

if you hate the zerg stop following it and actually have some fun

 

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

9/06/12 9:44:05 AM#36
Wow refuge:

Surely you dedicated pvpers would stay and fight it out, its your part time or wanting an I win button "pvpers" who will bugger off to other servers.

"dedicated pvpers moving because they loose to a larger server" is an oxymoron.
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

9/06/12 9:48:47 AM#37
To some up the last 3 mmos pvp
Gw2 pvp needs some tweaks, and with expansion I would like to see arenanets take on darkness falls and an aquatic map with ships instead of keeps.

Tsw pvp needs an overhaul

Swtor pvp needs taking out into a field to be shot.
  SethiusX

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/08
Posts: 171

9/06/12 9:50:41 AM#38
Originally posted by Worstluck
I've only seen WvWvW twice in my playing time of 100 hours.  The queues are ridiculous.  After being queued for six hours at one point over last weeekend I have given up.  I am glad some of you get to experience it...I can't even complain about it or suggest fixes to any of it's issues because I can't experience it.  Maybe someday I guess!

Move servers. On my server we have a queue of about 1 hour for eternal battlegrounds and 5 minutes for the borderlands. Don't play on the top pvp servers (Jade Quarry, Stormbluff, etc... I'm looking at you) as the queues are crazy there. Besides, no matter your server whether they are winning or losing, server matching will make sure it is fun in the long run.

  fatboy21007

Novice Member

Joined: 3/24/10
Posts: 419

9/06/12 9:56:46 AM#39
last night my server was outnumbers, sorrows furnace, on are home server, the enemy was wining, did we give up   NO. managed to keep garrison repaired and safe, after a few hour we retook all camps/keeps  back and we gained the 3rd orb, which was against the odds. Id say with alot of persitance, anything is possible. Though dmg through the door bites, that is 1 thing i hope gets fixed.
  Entris38

Tipster

Joined: 6/14/12
Posts: 271

9/06/12 9:58:46 AM#40
Just getting into WvW is ridiculous,not to mention they pretty much rehashed Daoc "New Frontiers" RVR system......"New Frontiers" ruined RvR in Daoc for me, it was pure zerg, same as GW2. Sure you can run off in your own little group and get run over by the Zerg........I do think WvW needs to have more meaning to the overall game, and i'm not a huge pvp'er, but love good old 8v8 rvr
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