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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

PvP  » PVP. whats the point?

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92 posts found
  Lyvean

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/30/12
Posts: 7

9/05/12 2:32:04 AM#41

I am not a hardcore PVP player but I like to play quite often. 

I don't have a major problem with equality in PVP, that GW2 offers. I like everyone starting at the same base. 

My main problems for me, which make me not to want to participate, are these:

a) It's not my character. It's some other character that I take control of, that has NOTHING to do with my main character. I find this something I can't get over. When I play an MMO I don't want to be taken out of my character. In a single player game that is not the problem, because the time you spend in the main story is the same with everyone else's, you are controlling the same character. But in an MMO every player has his or her own character, so using him or her for ALL aspects of the game is super important. 

b) Everyone is anonymous. I tried WvWvW and I really had no idea who was fighting me or who was killing me. It's impossible to create rivalries, to recognize other players by name or look, to remember and take revenge. All these things, in a game where there is PvP gear grind should be available in order for the players to feel part of the world, part of the conflict, part of the battle. The way it is now is really void from any feeling and if someone was watching this, it would seem like bots fighting it out. 

The game's mantra that "fun is all" is something I adhere to, sure. But there are sometimes when that is not enough by itself, especially in an MMO. Players need to feel a bit more attached to the things they do, they world they inhabit, via lore or via some of the above. GW2 is not a game created with RP in my mind (RP in the broader sense), like WoW was, hence why some basic features that can connect players to their characters are missing. 

That's my opinion on PvP. I love the game as a whole and I haven't stopped playing since launch. It's the most refreshing and ambitious MMO I have played for many years (EVE Online excluded). 

  Slythe

Novice Member

Joined: 6/21/04
Posts: 964

That's me inside your head.

9/05/12 2:38:55 AM#42

Anyone who has done any sort of WvW can tell you exactly what it is - it's a total zerg fest.

And of course it is. When everyone is equal, whoever has higher numbers will win. Sure, some people are more skilled than others but when it comes down to it, if everyone has the same gear, I don't care how good you are..three people will probably always kill you, no matter how ridiculous you are at the game.

Now, if you had been a no-lifer who had the +10 Sword of a Thousand Truths, you might be able to kill all 3 people before they even knew what hit them. But that's not how this game is, which is totally fine btw. The Pvp can be fun.

OP if you are looking to be an elite dude in his shiny looking armor, who can kill 5 other scrubs without breaking a sweat, this isn't the game for you.

  gessekai332

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/31/07
Posts: 876

9/05/12 3:04:02 AM#43

because its stupid fun and addicting? Each class is fun to play in pvp? and the more you play the cooler your character looks as you beat on other people?

 

also, there is something nice about putting time and effort into progressing your character in PvE and then using them to pwn face in PvP. thats whats different about mmo pvp and other online games.

Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)

  TyrianPrime

Novice Member

Joined: 7/12/11
Posts: 87

9/05/12 3:14:54 AM#44
Originally posted by Hrimnir

I play MMO's for character development, if im going to invest 100 hours of play into some piece of gear i want it to do something for me.  It doesnt have to be a HUGE advantage, but it should grant some sort of advantage.  I know people are going to disagree with me, and frankly i don't care.  Its my opinion and what i look for in an mmo.

I'm not saying the game is crap because of it, im just saying i dont quite understand the point of doing that in an RPG when things like RTS's and FPS's etc exist.

If one frankly doesn't care about different opinions why type his, in the first place, you could ask yoUrself, with all due respect.

But on the subject you did type about, gear grind in other MMOs, has turned ouright into a huge advantage, that takes out the fun factor, vanishing equal terms combat is based, not on  skill so much, but rather on burned out, gear heavy opponents, where newcomers have little or no chance, but to live a second life pvping, not even playing the rest of the game either.

So, yes, GW2, has given a punch in the face of a long established gear bred, group of players, that just seem to do better, only because they have invested more time=better gear for pvp.

Best players do it faster than others, less than good players achieve it later on, GW2 on the other hand, has given everyone the same gear, and may the very best, best them all....the B button of Guild Wars 2 pvp doesn't lie, about true performance in pvp.

 

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  gessekai332

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/31/07
Posts: 876

9/05/12 3:17:07 AM#45
Originally posted by Slythe

Anyone who has done any sort of WvW can tell you exactly what it is - it's a total zerg fest.

And of course it is. When everyone is equal, whoever has higher numbers will win. Sure, some people are more skilled than others but when it comes down to it, if everyone has the same gear, I don't care how good you are..three people will probably always kill you, no matter how ridiculous you are at the game.

Now, if you had been a no-lifer who had the +10 Sword of a Thousand Truths, you might be able to kill all 3 people before they even knew what hit them. But that's not how this game is, which is totally fine btw. The Pvp can be fun.

OP if you are looking to be an elite dude in his shiny looking armor, who can kill 5 other scrubs without breaking a sweat, this isn't the game for you.

you can definitely kill 2 people, maybe even 3 at once if they are scrubby enough. this happens in sPvP all the time. i personally have done it before ony my warrior and on my engineer. you get people that have been playing the game since launch and they still dont know what other classes' skills do and they get destroyed. you still have thieves that will kill themselves from your retaliation buff and you still have bads that will stand in the full duration of a warrior's hundred blades and beat on you even though you are invulnerable for a few seconds.

Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)

  gessekai332

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/31/07
Posts: 876

9/05/12 3:25:13 AM#46
Originally posted by Hrimnir
 
 
x

I dont even know why i bother responding to these posts.  Reading comprehension has apparently gone completely out of the window.  Yes, i play chess, yes, i play RTS, i used to compete on the ladders in original starcraft.  I've been lanning FPS's since most of the people posting on this forum were able to not shit themselves.

Once again my point is WHY in THIS FORMAT OF GAME.  Its like having a race track designed for go carts and then trying to use regular cars on it.  Can you do it, yes, but its going to be clunky and weird and feel wrong.

 

i think you are getting the wrong idea here. the combat in this game is not clunky. i have been playing competitive video games since the dawn of time and fighting other players in gw2 is far from clunky. it obviously doesnt have a weird feel to it for the majority of the people, which is why they continue to play and enjoy it.

 

if i wanted pure pvp, 0 grind, i would NOT play counterstrike, i would play this game instead.

Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)

  Lyvean

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/30/12
Posts: 7

9/05/12 5:18:38 AM#47

Wouldn't it be more fun and immersive to actually let us use our characters in PvP, at least with our names and looks? And mayble, after a while, allow us to carry into the battlefield some items that we have earned from PvE, not really important items, just some that maybe give a slight advantage if used by smart players when the time is right, so we can feel like we are actually making progress -even for the sake of progress- with our characters on all aspects of the game? 

Nameless and mindless PvP will only end up being fun for people who are hardcore PvP players and don't care about other things.

For example, me as a player, I would never grind for PvP gear just to beat a nameless guy or group. But to actually "take revenge" from a player or group who constanly beat  me and my friends, yes, that is an incentive that can make me put more effort into improving my PvP skills and items, even when I know I will never spend every waking hour obsessing about PvP improvements. 

These are basic stuff that ArenaNet could implement without having to forego its PvP design of equality, always in my opinion.

  Meowhead

Tipster

Joined: 1/31/09
Posts: 3728

9/05/12 5:20:42 AM#48
Originally posted by Lyvean

These are basic stuff that ArenaNet could implement without having to forego its PvP design of equality, always in my opinion.

 You always have your name.

... and you can take your items into WvW.

So they read your mind and already added this.  Over two years ago, actually, when they explained it then.

The company is THAT GOOD.

  Lyvean

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/30/12
Posts: 7

9/05/12 5:43:02 AM#49
Νο need to be sarcastic my friend, my limited experience with PvP probably left me with some errors in judgement. :)
  GamerUntouch

Novice Member

Joined: 5/11/12
Posts: 491

9/05/12 6:04:40 AM#50

If i wanted pure, 0 gear grind PVP, i'm gonna go play counterstrike, or something like that.

 

There's a reason why people take the PvP of those games seriously and MMOs not so seriously and you just explained it.

  Meowhead

Tipster

Joined: 1/31/09
Posts: 3728

9/05/12 6:11:15 AM#51
Originally posted by Lyvean
Νο need to be sarcastic my friend, my limited experience with PvP probably left me with some errors in judgement. :)

 Hey, I wasn't being mean, I was being goodnatured!  :D

Seriously though, you always have your look no matter what sort of PvP you're doing, and you always still have your name (To your friends, if not your enemies), even in WvW.

You always, always have your guild tag.

You have your equipment in WvW, and your PvE build as well.  You can go and get better equipment or more skills and traits, come back to WvW, and do somewhat better.

  KaosProphet

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 384

9/05/12 6:59:49 AM#52

 


Originally posted by coretex666 A very significant element of RPG and MMORPG games for many people have always been character progression / development. I do not claim that it holds for everyone. Obviously, there are people who do not need it in RPGs and are happy to play them as FPS for the frags and the fun as you say. For me, it takes depth out of an MMORPG.

I do not think you understand this or maybe you just do not want to understand it. It is much easier to say it is problem of the youth, so that you basically imply that those who prefer something else than you are kids. Then finish it with "no itam", "epix", etc. Well...


I'll admit, I don't fully understand it. And perhaps, at some level, I am worried that understanding it will sully my RP image or something - it seems, to me, a distraction from the "RP" element of the RPG, in favor of the "G" aspect. Plus, I just don't like what it turns the endgame into. Others do, and I can respect that (even if I don't understand it) - up to the point where they start disrespecting me for wanting something different.

OP didn't do that directly, but indirectly... there's definately hints of it.

You did not; you, at least, understand that it doesn't hold for everyone. That's something of a step up from the average proponent of perpetual gear progression IME, and for that you deserve at least some respect.

  kostoslav

Novice Member

Joined: 5/27/09
Posts: 467

9/05/12 7:35:29 AM#53
Once I manage to enter wvw I'll let u know :)
  MNZeba

Novice Member

Joined: 9/10/08
Posts: 255

9/05/12 7:40:00 AM#54
This is like asking what's the point in playing CoD....
  Scalpless

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/22/07
Posts: 1333

9/05/12 7:53:17 AM#55
Originally posted by Hrimnir
 
 
Once again my point is WHY in THIS FORMAT OF GAME.  Its like having a race track designed for go carts and then trying to use regular cars on it.  Can you do it, yes, but its going to be clunky and weird and feel wrong.
 

Why should every MMO be the same? Yes, GW2 is different. Maybe it's not for you, but I refuse to play any PvP game with items that give advantage to other players. That's like playing chess against a chess master and only getting soldiers and a king, because he's more experienced than you. So, the GW series is the only RPG series with PvP I can be bothered to participate in.

Besides, character customisation is still there. Bigger numbers don't make a game deeper.

  lilHeala

Novice Member

Joined: 8/30/11
Posts: 528

9/05/12 8:08:21 AM#56

The point for me is fun.

And there's really a lot of different specs possible and viable as well, much more than in those gear grind games where there's just a few armor sets per class available, ususally focusing on 1 role each that the class can take on with the next tier just having a slightly increase in the same stats but is actually more of the same (you also don't become more powerful with it because the enemy also has the same stat increase so it's just in the mind).

The different ways to spec viably in those games are also virtually non-existent, everything is cookie cutter and for the role you take on there's more often than not the one spec to rule them all. GW2 luckily doesn't work that way, gives a lot of flexibility in build and puts everybody on an equal playing field as much as possible. Of course some class/specs are more difficult to beat but there's counters for all of them.

  Macecard

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/03/10
Posts: 146

9/05/12 8:13:09 AM#57

You have a point I guess and your entitled to your opinion but in my opinion;

I don't see the point in a pvp where you get better gear. Whats the point in playing it killing people to get better gear to go at it again and get even better gear and then go at it again....you get the point.

What Arenanet have done it removed the pvp to become better at pvp mentality and now you have the pvp to pvp mentality which is more in sync with that games should be like. You game to game, not to 'pwn' other ppl and feel superior (which is what I see what ppl talk about the gear grind and liking it, your just people who enjoy being superior and its easier with a gear grind than a skill based game)

 

If you continue to make sweeping statements like you know what everyone everywhere thinks about a certain topic then I am going to shout at you.
It easy to type 'I think this is the worst game ever'
Rather than the 'This is the worst game ever'

  User Deleted
9/05/12 8:16:03 AM#58

I think the pvp is fun and I hate pvp where gear is the determining factor. If -- and only if -- gear is more or less equal, then skill is a factor in most mmorpgs like WoW, Rift, SWTOR, etc. 

 

It's obviously valid to enjoy that type of game design. Those games exist and if that's what you want, go for it. I'm glad there is an alternative for people who don't like gear grinding. I have a lot more fun with pvp now knowing that it is up to me to get better by figuring out how to play my class rather than thinking (as I did when I played WoW) "Okay, I just have to steele myself to being fodder for a while, so the people who put in more time can enjoy their *victory*...Eventually, I farm enough honor to get the next level of gear to get the next level of gear so that I can start getting these kinds of marks to the get next level of gear, etc."

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4935

9/05/12 8:24:28 AM#59

Wow! 6 pages of replies and only one person got the OP's point. Almost everyone in this thread ignored the OP's part of the question around the point that  THERE ARE BETTER GAMES OUT THERE IF ALL YOU WANT IS EQUALLIZED PVP.

But it doesn't address the fact that GW2 is a complete package. (Just looking at both sides of the coin)

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  vort3x

Novice Member

Joined: 2/05/06
Posts: 126

9/05/12 8:25:29 AM#60
Originally posted by Hrimnir
 
 
Originally posted by vort3x
Originally posted by Hrimnir
Originally posted by vort3x
Originally posted by Magnetia

*clipped* 

I don't understand how so many of MMO community seems to be doing stuff just to achieve something, rather than to simply have FUN. Sometimes I get the feeling you're all like "No, this is acutaly not fun, but I'm doing it, because i want that armor!"

Ok, im going to explain this simply for you.  ITS FUN!  *gasp* wait a minute, grinding for gear is fun? how is this possible?  this is madness, this is blasphemy?!!?!

Do you think the guy that spend 200 hours carefully putting together a ship in a bottle is enjoying the hand cramps, and the constant starting over because you make a tiny mistake and screw the whole thing up?  No. Of course its not FUN, but it gives a sense of satisfaction, and that is fun.  Same thing for the guy who spends 50 hours putting a 4000 piece puzzle together.

Just like making love to a woman you are in love with and care for is going to be far more enjoyable than just banging some drunk chick you took home from the bar.

The difference comes from being invested into something, it creates a different type of enjoyment.

I swear the modern generation doesn't get this.  They're so used to having everything at their fingertips that they've never learned the sense of enjoyment and satisfaction that comes from pursuing and completing a long term project.

Your argument would actually be pretty good... if you hadn't missed the point of my post and the point of this thread entirely...

 

See what i was talking about is FUN IN PVP. Not the fun of equipment grinding and puting your character together. But ok, we can have it your way... The way you put it, people are having fun in PvP because they are gear grinding and thus improving their character.. which kindof seems wrong to me in the first place. In your words that's like saying you enjoy making love to a woman, because you know you're gonna have a child in the end that you're goning to raise into a nice magnificent human being... 

Well I like making love with a woman just for the sake of making love. It feels good. Same thing goes for PvP.

Also... Just because you're given lvl 80 and equal gear to everyone doesn't mean "everything is at your fingertips". No, not at all. The long term project that you're talking about here is honing your own skills, instead of gear. Defeat players because you play the game better, not because you played more and have better gear.

I swear the modern generation doesn't get this. When they can improve something thatt they can see or hold it's fine. But honing your own skills (be it mental or physical) is just not tangible enough for them to be interesting...

Dude, im 28 years old, i got what you were saying;  What only maybe 4 people in this thread have understood is the point i am trying to make is not whether or not competitive PVP is fun, but should competitive PVP be placed in the confines of an MMORPG.

And as for your honing your skills argument.  It gernally takes about 2 million iteratons of doing something before you're a master at it.  So, while become a master of say performing an entire 20 minute pas de deux will take a lifetime to perfect, a game like this is going to take a few months AT MOST.  Now, if the whole stick was to try to learn every weapon combo for every class in the game and be top tier at all of it.  yes i could see someone doing that for years.  But, the reality is if you stick with the same character and same weapons, after a couple of weeks of playing you will have reached 99% of your skill capability.  Adding another 1000 hours isnt going to make you any significant amount better.

To respond to the people who are talking about grinds for gear in pvp.  My point is i would like to see a MINOR difference between sets.  Im talking like 5% at most.  So at least it feels like there is SOME point in it.  Otherwise i have no reason to play PVP in a game like GW2 for pure competitive "FUN" because playing something like CS:GO is far FAR more rewarding because its a far more pure skill based system than PVP in MMO's are.

 

You can always keep pushing the limits. When you think you have stopped improving in something, it's time for you to sit down and think what else you could improve, or WHY others can do it better than you.

Guild Wars 1 GvG was a perfect example. Everyone in top guilds had 1000s of hours invested in the game, and a couple of 1000 GvG battles. They could all run the same build, but the same guild kept wining the monthly tournaments. They just did something better...

Or take a FPS game for example, Quake. So much skill is needed to master that game, all the champs there have invested enormous amounts of time, yet there is always one that prevails... Even if it's just that 1 single % that keeps you from wining it, it makes the difference in the end. Besides, there is no reason sticking with 1 single class and specific set of weapons for years, no one will do that in GW2 in my opinion...

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