I'm having fun with GW2, great post.

Originally posted by FrodoFragins

Too many companies out there were simply cloning WOW.  That's a stupid, but simple approach.  And yet even Bioware couldn't even get their clone right.

<SNIP>

1) A custom designed engine, which any new MMO developer should do anyway.  SWTOR used an existing one that's still clunky.

<SNIP>

Bioware didn't get their clone right because they are no longer Bioware .. EA purchased Bioware some time ago, but still fool people into buying their games because EA continues to occasionally masquarade as "Bioware".

The SWTOR engine blows chunks because EA bought a beta from Hero a long time ago, thinking they could code the rest.  Maybe it was to customize the engine, maybe it was to save money - who knows.  But the engine source was mutilated and Hero will not support it.  The only way to get more than 10-20 fps when standing around other people is to buy a $5,000 computer, which is what EA shills on the SWTOR forums are telling customers to do.  For shame EA. "It's not the game, it's your computer!" .. lolzwut? 

GW2 plays at 60 fps on the same machine that used to get 10-20 fps on SWTOR (and also 1-2 fps or worse in SWTOR world PVP area Ilum) ... and GW2 has a helluva lot more real player interaction :-)

Originally posted by FrodoFragins

Originally posted by Arakazi
I don't see much of WoW in GW2 and to be honest GW2 reminds me more of games like Fable 2 or Rift. Plus I#m a little fed up with people always comparing everything to WoW and besides, you could say that ANet looked at what Turbine did and come up with pretty much the same conclusion.

You clearly didn't read the post.  The cliff notes version is that the WOW model was to improve on the genre by keeping the good things and disposing of the bad.  Games like SWTOR chose to clone WOW rather than use the model Blizzard used.

I did read the thread and cast my mind back to when WoW was first released and I didn't think WoW was groundbreaking or even an evolution of the genre, just the most polished and accessible of all of the MMOs that where then available and i don't think GW2 is either as polished or accessible as WoW was when it was first released. I have seen too many bugs and problems during my week and a half of playing to honestly call it polished and the twitch based combat and the need for a good computer makes it less acessible than wow. I'm not exactly a WoW and to be honest I'm begining to hate that fucking game but it what it had in it's favour was at the time it was the only MMO that where everything was done to a high standard, it just came out at the right time.

Originally posted by Jimmydean

Originally posted by FrodoFragins

 

5) Remove the gear grind.  Considering how few people are hardcore raiders in any given MMO, this was a no brainer.

 

I always find it interesting when people say this. The gear grind is there in GW2. Even more than it ever was in WoW or previous MMORPGs. Do you understand the amount of time it takes to get full exotic lvl 80 gear and legendary weapon? And how much content you will be repeating ad nauseum in the process?

Well some people will undoubtedly say, "You don't have to grind that though!"

Fact of the matter is, Exotic gear is better than Rare gear. If you think you are going to beat Arah Explorable with your lvl 70 rare gear, good luck! 

You didn't have to grind raid / dungeon gear in WoW or previous MMORPGs either. It's always been an option, GW2 doesn't do anything new in this respect. 

he should of said mandatory gear grind, that is ssomething they removed.

Dungeon gear was stronger from my understanding or it wasn't in previous MMOs?

This is a pretty good post Frodo.  I didn't see it after it got buried under all the emo dramallama.

I read an early beta blog review that drew the same conclusion about ANet and the design of the game.  His point was that GW2 was more of a "wow clone" not in execution, but in its design philosophy.  It has actually progressed some design aspects of the themepark.

I think TRION tried to do that with RIFT - improve on WoW, EQ2, etc - but didn't leave out enough of the cruft to really achieve that.  They kind of improved what WoW and EQ2 delivered but didn't really improve as much on the themepark and how it delivers content.

One area I didn't mention was the idea of lockout timers.  Subscription based MMOs let you complete a raid only once a week.  This is to slow down your progress and keep you subbing for longer.  It also artificially extends the longevity of the raid. 

As far as I know there is nothing like this in GW2.

WoW is widely regarded and criticized for  "Dumbing down of the MMO genre", "making MMO play childlike" and for "removing real game challenge to placate the Masses". 

LoL,  I couldn't agree more with the OP.   GW2 took things from the young adult / teen level and brought it down to the child / DayCare level. 

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Sorry but gw2 is nothing like the blizzard model.

The blizzard model is...
Skinner box loot systems, taking advantage of the same psychological flaws that Casinos use. (they started this gaming trend with diablo)
Raiders come first, everyone else second
Instanced (both pve and pvp) endgame, with cities as glorified lobbies.
An obsession with sticking timers on pvp.
Power coming from time played first, skill last.
Dead easy super casual leveling game that suddenly and jarringly jumps to a grind the cliff face endgame

Non of which applies to gw2

Someone didn't bother reading the OP

Originally posted by FrodoFragins

One area I didn't mention was the idea of lockout timers.  Subscription based MMOs let you complete a raid only once a week.  This is to slow down your progress and keep you subbing for longer.  It also artificially extends the longevity of the raid. 

As far as I know there is nothing like this in GW2.

The closest thing I've encountered to a "lockout timer" is Shadow Behemoth only spawns once every 3 hours... so there is a "timer" for it in-between which you are "locked out" :)

Mostly I kid - it is one of the things I've enjoyed most about the game. I did some epic events. My friends logged on later in the night. We did more epic events together, and some of them were the same events. For people who enjoy the fights more than the loot this game is absolutely fantastic in that respect!...

Although related to that, you didn't include how the level-scaling lets you play with your friends doing these epic events when you are level 31 and they are levels 21, 13, 12, and 16!

Originally posted by Amana
Please don't bump your own threads. Yes, this forum is super active right now, but it's a bit spammy to do so.

Well, in all fairness he did wait a day and it is hard finding a thread with actual substance to it.  Not meaning to argue, but I would rather see some sort of discussion in the midst of all the angst.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
I did read frodo. But I don't believe the wow took the best bits from prior mmos line. I kinda see that with gw2, but not wow, wow basicly took the grind to win system of their own game diablo and made it into a mmo format. (you could say they took this from EQ, but EQ got the idea from diablo in the first place.

For a start if they had taken the best bits from existing mmos.
Wow pvp would be like daoc.
Wow crafting would be like uo.
Wow grouping would be like coh.

They did steal the UI from ac though.

Interestingly gw2 does borrow from daoc and coh.
 

CoH came after WoW.

WoW did improve upon certain things.  

1) Not having to camp a mob spawn for 24 hours by implementing instances

2) Grind was reduced (Vanilla WoW greatly reduced typical MMO grind)  By today's standards, Vanilla WoW would be a real grind but back then it was casual friendly.

3) Death penalty was minimal (don't lose all of your stuff to corpse)

4) World Chat

5) Maps

6) Quest markers/quest hubs.

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by Amana
Please don't bump your own threads. Yes, this forum is super active right now, but it's a bit spammy to do so.

Well, in all fairness he did wait a day and it is hard finding a thread with actual substance to it.  Not meaning to argue, but I would rather see some sort of discussion in the midst of all the angst.

I responded to Amana in a PM but thanks for the words. 

I clearly posted at the wrong time yesterday.  I felt the post was worthy of one bump at a slower time due to the time I spent on it.  I don't feel I was spamming at all, just giving one last chance for discussion on the topic.  Clearly waiting a day to bump was correct.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
I did read frodo. But I don't believe the wow took the best bits from prior mmos line. I kinda see that with gw2, but not wow, wow basicly took the grind to win system of their own game diablo and made it into a mmo format. (you could say they took this from EQ, but EQ got the idea from diablo in the first place.

For a start if they had taken the best bits from existing mmos.
Wow pvp would be like daoc.
Wow crafting would be like uo.
Wow grouping would be like coh.

They did steal the UI from ac though.

Interestingly gw2 does borrow from daoc and coh.
 

ive always believed wow was a mmo version of diablo - but w warcraft lore

Originally posted by Badaboom

Originally posted by ShakyMo
I did read frodo. But I don't believe the wow took the best bits from prior mmos line. I kinda see that with gw2, but not wow, wow basicly took the grind to win system of their own game diablo and made it into a mmo format. (you could say they took this from EQ, but EQ got the idea from diablo in the first place.

For a start if they had taken the best bits from existing mmos.
Wow pvp would be like daoc.
Wow crafting would be like uo.
Wow grouping would be like coh.

They did steal the UI from ac though.

Interestingly gw2 does borrow from daoc and coh.
 

CoH came after WoW.

WoW did improve upon certain things.  

1) Not having to camp a mob spawn for 24 hours by implementing instances

2) Grind was reduced (Vanilla WoW greatly reduced typical MMO grind)  By today's standards, Vanilla WoW would be a real grind but back then it was casual friendly.

3) Death penalty was minimal (don't lose all of your stuff to corpse)

4) World Chat

5) Maps

6) Quest markers/quest hubs.

CoH was released before WoW.  April 2004.  WoW was released November 2004 in NA, and February 2005 in the EU.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Sorry but gw2 is nothing like the blizzard model.

The blizzard model is...
Skinner box loot systems, taking advantage of the same psychological flaws that Casinos use. (they started this gaming trend with diablo)
Raiders come first, everyone else second
Instanced (both pve and pvp) endgame, with cities as glorified lobbies.
An obsession with sticking timers on pvp.
Power coming from time played first, skill last.
Dead easy super casual leveling game that suddenly and jarringly jumps to a grind the cliff face endgame

Non of which applies to gw2

Sucks that you never played vanilla WoW

One major thing that Anet did right that bioware and trion (among others) failed miserably was focus very, very heavily on the world and its inhabitants.  The amount of love thatr went into creating the zones and cities in GW2 is apparent and astounding.  Tyria is ALIVE, moreso than any game released this milennium.

WoW understood how important a great game world was too.  Anet just out executed them on it.

Originally posted by Amana
Please don't bump your own threads. Yes, this forum is super active right now, but it's a bit spammy to do so.

I find it pretty ridiculous that this gets called out while the same dozen people are allowed to post nonsense in thread after thread after thread.  That is FAR FAR FAR more spammy than bumping a post that obvious some thought was put into.