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General Discussion  » Will GW2 avoid the same fate as SWTOR?

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  Tibernicus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/15/12
Posts: 437

9/05/12 8:10:30 PM#161
Originally posted by meari
Originally posted by Tibernicus
Originally posted by meari
Originally posted by Tibernicus
Originally posted by Gaborik
Originally posted by Tibernicus
Originally posted by Wickedjelly
Originally posted by Tibernicus

Haha are you joking?

The biggest IP in any media in THE WORLD, and despite that, they never broke 500k subs. They didn't crash and burn, they never left the runway. They've just coasted along for years. So much so that they had to go FTP just to get some extra cash flow going.

I don't consider it the largest ip out there you should, it is the best selling book in the world aside from the Bible, and pre release there were millions hammering the beta sign up page. That number barely even cracked a couple hundred thousand on release day, because by then everyone had seen how much of a WoW clone it was and lost interest.  nor did I see their turn to f2p as a failure. You should. DDO went FTP because it was a total failure and had nothing to lose. LotRO went the same route because it hadn't been growing for years. They did better than expected with DDO DDO was the laughing stock of the genre for close to 4 years so of course they reconsidered their venture in LotR. Was it a resounding success? No

Certainly isn't anything remotely like you claim either.

I was involved with LotRO from when it was called Middle Earth Online, until launch. I have never before seen a game that was better in alpha than when released, but Middle Earth Online was a far FAR superior game to LotRO. But, it wasn't mainstream enough, so they changed it to be just like WoW, and lost the vast majority of their fan base in the process. I lived 10 minutes away from Turbine's offices, I saw the radical shift in quality (for the worse) they company went through over the years. It was sad to witness and I'm still upset over what could have been.

 

You don't take an IP like LotR, hot off the release of 3 record breaking movies... and then not even beat the sub numbers of old dial up games...and then call it a great success.

 

First turbine never ever released its sub numbers so for you to state it never beat a dial up game just shows you are bias against lotro. Just so you know lotro has been around for over 5 yrs! A failed game would not have survived 5 yrs Many failed games have been around a lot longer. Anarchy Online? Vanguard?  would not be releasing another expansion NEXT MONTH!! See above, expansions mean very little. would not have the most preorders since moria would not be releasing the largest expansion since moria. That means almost nothing as a metric. LotRO has been limping along in semi obscurity since its launch. For the biggest IP in the MMO space, its sad. You can hate all you want. Just because it doesnt say it has 10 million players does not mean its a failed game.

All things considered for what it was SUPPOSED to be, its a pretty dismal failure. Now it didn't collapse in the same fashion as WAR or AOC or SWTOR, but it never did well as a game.

Since no game has done well in the west since WoW you mean no WoW clone has done well since WoW, to which I say... duh. Darkfall on the other hand, did quite well in the west. , I think it's a pretty hard call to make. Even GW2 (though I have every confidence GW2 will do extremely well) has yet to prove its mettle. From the list of MMOs, LoTRO is not a failure in any sense.

So from the list of failed MMOs LotRO isn't AS BIG a failure... which is what I have been saying. It still isn't a roaring success. Especially not compared to the amount of buzz it had in beta.

No, I mean no MMO period. Name a MMO that has done well in the West since WoW.

Already did. Darkfall.

Want another? Eve.

You saying "no MMO has done well since WoW" kind of backs up my argument that LotRO didn't do well, don't you think?

  Tibernicus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/15/12
Posts: 437

9/05/12 8:12:21 PM#162
Originally posted by Wickedjelly
Originally posted by Tibernicus

Since no game has done well in the west since WoW you mean no WoW clone has done well since WoW, to which I say... duh. Darkfall on the other hand, did quite well in the west. , I think it's a pretty hard call to make. Even GW2 (though I have every confidence GW2 will do extremely well) has yet to prove its mettle. From the list of MMOs, LoTRO is not a failure in any sense.

So from the list of failed MMOs LotRO isn't AS BIG a failure... which is what I have been saying. It still isn't a roaring success. Especially not compared to the amount of buzz it had in beta.

Right...so LOTRO was a failure in your eyes but Darkfall did quite well. Yes...I mean what the fuck?

Not even worth going further...

Turbine - big company with lots of employees and 3 MMOs under their belt. What do they release with the biggest IP in the world? A WoW clone that limps along and never does anything exciting. Never really grows until it goes FTP years later.

Aventurine - 30 man company with no experience release a hardcore niche MMORPG with extremely innovative tech. They get enough subs to open a second server, hire 30 more devs, and move into a bigger office building, and produce a massive overhaul to their own game.

Which one seems like the bigger more impressive success story?

  Wickedjelly

Novice Member

Joined: 4/19/09
Posts: 5064

The Dude abides

9/05/12 8:13:08 PM#163
Originally posted by Tibernicus

When the biggest IP in the world cannot generate massive subs, coming off 3 blockbuster record shattering movies... that's a failure.

We don't need sub numbers to know that LotRO never broke 500k subs.

WoW was already out and had its roots in the ground. Not the least bit surprising. I'm not going to say I agree with everything Turbine did with LOTRO because god knows they made mistakes but anyone including them that thought they were going to make WoW numbers were sorely mistaken.

I said it then and I'm saying it now.

Not everyone that reads Tolkien or watches movies plays games. Everyone that played Warcraft's earlier efforts in their other venue does. Not in the least bit surprising.

1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  meari

Novice Member

Joined: 4/14/12
Posts: 104

9/05/12 8:14:14 PM#164
Originally posted by Tibernicus
Originally posted by meari
Originally posted by Tibernicus
Originally posted by meari
Originally posted by Tibernicus
Originally posted by Gaborik
Originally posted by Tibernicus
Originally posted by Wickedjelly
Originally posted by Tibernicus

Haha are you joking?

The biggest IP in any media in THE WORLD, and despite that, they never broke 500k subs. They didn't crash and burn, they never left the runway. They've just coasted along for years. So much so that they had to go FTP just to get some extra cash flow going.

I don't consider it the largest ip out there you should, it is the best selling book in the world aside from the Bible, and pre release there were millions hammering the beta sign up page. That number barely even cracked a couple hundred thousand on release day, because by then everyone had seen how much of a WoW clone it was and lost interest.  nor did I see their turn to f2p as a failure. You should. DDO went FTP because it was a total failure and had nothing to lose. LotRO went the same route because it hadn't been growing for years. They did better than expected with DDO DDO was the laughing stock of the genre for close to 4 years so of course they reconsidered their venture in LotR. Was it a resounding success? No

Certainly isn't anything remotely like you claim either.

I was involved with LotRO from when it was called Middle Earth Online, until launch. I have never before seen a game that was better in alpha than when released, but Middle Earth Online was a far FAR superior game to LotRO. But, it wasn't mainstream enough, so they changed it to be just like WoW, and lost the vast majority of their fan base in the process. I lived 10 minutes away from Turbine's offices, I saw the radical shift in quality (for the worse) they company went through over the years. It was sad to witness and I'm still upset over what could have been.

 

You don't take an IP like LotR, hot off the release of 3 record breaking movies... and then not even beat the sub numbers of old dial up games...and then call it a great success.

 

First turbine never ever released its sub numbers so for you to state it never beat a dial up game just shows you are bias against lotro. Just so you know lotro has been around for over 5 yrs! A failed game would not have survived 5 yrs Many failed games have been around a lot longer. Anarchy Online? Vanguard?  would not be releasing another expansion NEXT MONTH!! See above, expansions mean very little. would not have the most preorders since moria would not be releasing the largest expansion since moria. That means almost nothing as a metric. LotRO has been limping along in semi obscurity since its launch. For the biggest IP in the MMO space, its sad. You can hate all you want. Just because it doesnt say it has 10 million players does not mean its a failed game.

All things considered for what it was SUPPOSED to be, its a pretty dismal failure. Now it didn't collapse in the same fashion as WAR or AOC or SWTOR, but it never did well as a game.

Since no game has done well in the west since WoW you mean no WoW clone has done well since WoW, to which I say... duh. Darkfall on the other hand, did quite well in the west. , I think it's a pretty hard call to make. Even GW2 (though I have every confidence GW2 will do extremely well) has yet to prove its mettle. From the list of MMOs, LoTRO is not a failure in any sense.

So from the list of failed MMOs LotRO isn't AS BIG a failure... which is what I have been saying. It still isn't a roaring success. Especially not compared to the amount of buzz it had in beta.

No, I mean no MMO period. Name a MMO that has done well in the West since WoW.

Already did. Darkfall.

Want another? Eve.

You saying "no MMO has done well since WoW" kind of backs up my argument that LotRO didn't do well, don't you think?

Darkfall did not do well, what's your criteria for well?

Eve came out before WoW. Like, wow.

  Tibernicus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/15/12
Posts: 437

9/05/12 8:14:42 PM#165
Originally posted by Wickedjelly
Originally posted by Tibernicus

When the biggest IP in the world cannot generate massive subs, coming off 3 blockbuster record shattering movies... that's a failure.

We don't need sub numbers to know that LotRO never broke 500k subs.

WoW was already out and had its roots in the ground. Not the least bit surprising. I'm not going to say I agree with everything Turbine did with LOTRO because god knows they made mistakes but anyone including them that thought they were going to make WoW numbers were sorely mistaken.

I said it then and I'm saying it now.

They didn't need to make WoW numbers. Like you said, WoW had its roots firmly in...so don't you think it was a bit moronic of them to rewrite their entire game, when it was already in open alpha testing... and turn it from a sandbox into a WOW clone over night?

Another game did the exact same thing once.. It was called SWG....wonder what ever happened to it...

  meari

Novice Member

Joined: 4/14/12
Posts: 104

9/05/12 8:16:46 PM#166
Originally posted by Tibernicus
Originally posted by Wickedjelly
Originally posted by Tibernicus

When the biggest IP in the world cannot generate massive subs, coming off 3 blockbuster record shattering movies... that's a failure.

We don't need sub numbers to know that LotRO never broke 500k subs.

WoW was already out and had its roots in the ground. Not the least bit surprising. I'm not going to say I agree with everything Turbine did with LOTRO because god knows they made mistakes but anyone including them that thought they were going to make WoW numbers were sorely mistaken.

I said it then and I'm saying it now.

They didn't need to make WoW numbers. Like you said, WoW had its roots firmly in...so don't you think it was a bit moronic of them to rewrite their entire game, when it was already in open alpha testing... and turn it from a sandbox into a WOW clone over night?

Another game did the exact same thing once.. It was called SWG....wonder what ever happened to it...

Don't think you've answered this but. Do you honestly think ME:O would have done better than LoTRO? With all its features that will put off huge number of players? (like permanent death)

  Gaborik

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/10/08
Posts: 313

9/05/12 8:20:48 PM#167
Originally posted by Tibernicus
Originally posted by Gaborik
Originally posted by Tibernicus
Originally posted by Wickedjelly
Originally posted by Tibernicus

Haha are you joking?

The biggest IP in any media in THE WORLD, and despite that, they never broke 500k subs. They didn't crash and burn, they never left the runway. They've just coasted along for years. So much so that they had to go FTP just to get some extra cash flow going.

I don't consider it the largest ip out there you should, it is the best selling book in the world aside from the Bible, and pre release there were millions hammering the beta sign up page. That number barely even cracked a couple hundred thousand on release day, because by then everyone had seen how much of a WoW clone it was and lost interest.  nor did I see their turn to f2p as a failure. You should. DDO went FTP because it was a total failure and had nothing to lose. LotRO went the same route because it hadn't been growing for years. They did better than expected with DDO DDO was the laughing stock of the genre for close to 4 years so of course they reconsidered their venture in LotR. Was it a resounding success? No

Certainly isn't anything remotely like you claim either.

I was involved with LotRO from when it was called Middle Earth Online, until launch. I have never before seen a game that was better in alpha than when released, but Middle Earth Online was a far FAR superior game to LotRO. But, it wasn't mainstream enough, so they changed it to be just like WoW, and lost the vast majority of their fan base in the process. I lived 10 minutes away from Turbine's offices, I saw the radical shift in quality (for the worse) they company went through over the years. It was sad to witness and I'm still upset over what could have been.

 

You don't take an IP like LotR, hot off the release of 3 record breaking movies... and then not even beat the sub numbers of old dial up games...and then call it a great success.

 

First turbine never ever released its sub numbers so for you to state it never beat a dial up game just shows you are bias against lotro. Just so you know lotro has been around for over 5 yrs! A failed game would not have survived 5 yrs Many failed games have been around a lot longer. Anarchy Online? Vanguard?  would not be releasing another expansion NEXT MONTH!! See above, expansions mean very little. would not have the most preorders since moria would not be releasing the largest expansion since moria. That means almost nothing as a metric. LotRO has been limping along in semi obscurity since its launch. For the biggest IP in the MMO space, its sad. You can hate all you want. Just because it doesnt say it has 10 million players does not mean its a failed game.

All things considered for what it was SUPPOSED to be, its a pretty dismal failure. Now it didn't collapse in the same fashion as WAR or AOC or SWTOR, but it never did well as a game.

Its clear you are confused and lost.   First LOTRO was released before Vanguard second Vanguard has 2 servers and LOTRO has over 20 live servers.  Having "monthly expansions" is not the same as adding large part of a world with new elements to the game.  Limpling along haha too funny, how about having the best community of any MMO also a very healthy community.   Its clear turbiine hurt you somewhere, but trying to say the game is a failure is inaccurate and silly and think its time for you to move on.  Is LOTRO the most successful MMO ever? Not even close.  Is LOTRO one of the top MMO out right now (TOP 5, closer to 5 then 1 for sure) I would say most definetly!!

  meari

Novice Member

Joined: 4/14/12
Posts: 104

9/05/12 8:24:44 PM#168

Btw I'll throw this out there.

CCP began with 21 staff only, now Eve has close to half a mil subs and 600 staff. By comparison (using Tiberninus logic, I don't care about Darkfall eitherway) Darkfall is an abysmal failure.

  Tibernicus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/15/12
Posts: 437

9/05/12 8:25:59 PM#169
Originally posted by meari
Originally posted by Tibernicus
Originally posted by Wickedjelly
Originally posted by Tibernicus

When the biggest IP in the world cannot generate massive subs, coming off 3 blockbuster record shattering movies... that's a failure.

We don't need sub numbers to know that LotRO never broke 500k subs.

WoW was already out and had its roots in the ground. Not the least bit surprising. I'm not going to say I agree with everything Turbine did with LOTRO because god knows they made mistakes but anyone including them that thought they were going to make WoW numbers were sorely mistaken.

I said it then and I'm saying it now.

They didn't need to make WoW numbers. Like you said, WoW had its roots firmly in...so don't you think it was a bit moronic of them to rewrite their entire game, when it was already in open alpha testing... and turn it from a sandbox into a WOW clone over night?

Another game did the exact same thing once.. It was called SWG....wonder what ever happened to it...

Don't think you've answered this but. Do you honestly think ME:O would have done better than LoTRO? With all its features that will put off huge number of players? (like permanent death)

I've played both versions of LotRO, and yes, Middle Earth Online would have done far FAR better.

You seem to be confused. There were two MEO projects. One by Sierra and one by Turbine. Sierra's from the 90s had permadeath. Turbine's did not.

 

Turbine spent a good 3-4 years cultivating a massive following for Middle Earth Online. It was to be the next big sandbox game. "Live in Middle Earth". Turbine held Luncheon's in Providence, RI to talk with the devs and show off the game. The community was amazing, the devs were amazing, it was a great time.

Then they announced LotRO and let people try it. The vast majority of the fans left within the month. Turbine never had another Luncheon so the fans organized one. All the old devs had been shuffled off to another department or fired. The new devs that ate lunch with us were young, fresh out of college, and all they could talk about was the combat, and how you could quest through instances.

It was a totally different game from the one they'd built up for years. They lost a huge chunk of their players before they even really released, and they never recovered.

People don't leave WoW to play WoW. Having a more unique game that actually allowed you to explore Middle Earth would have been worlds more successful than just another linear WOW clone that punishes going off the trail.

  Tibernicus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/15/12
Posts: 437

9/05/12 8:26:34 PM#170
Originally posted by meari
Originally posted by Tibernicus
Originally posted by meari
Originally posted by Tibernicus
Originally posted by meari
Originally posted by Tibernicus
Originally posted by Gaborik
Originally posted by Tibernicus
Originally posted by Wickedjelly
Originally posted by Tibernicus

Haha are you joking?

The biggest IP in any media in THE WORLD, and despite that, they never broke 500k subs. They didn't crash and burn, they never left the runway. They've just coasted along for years. So much so that they had to go FTP just to get some extra cash flow going.

I don't consider it the largest ip out there you should, it is the best selling book in the world aside from the Bible, and pre release there were millions hammering the beta sign up page. That number barely even cracked a couple hundred thousand on release day, because by then everyone had seen how much of a WoW clone it was and lost interest.  nor did I see their turn to f2p as a failure. You should. DDO went FTP because it was a total failure and had nothing to lose. LotRO went the same route because it hadn't been growing for years. They did better than expected with DDO DDO was the laughing stock of the genre for close to 4 years so of course they reconsidered their venture in LotR. Was it a resounding success? No

Certainly isn't anything remotely like you claim either.

I was involved with LotRO from when it was called Middle Earth Online, until launch. I have never before seen a game that was better in alpha than when released, but Middle Earth Online was a far FAR superior game to LotRO. But, it wasn't mainstream enough, so they changed it to be just like WoW, and lost the vast majority of their fan base in the process. I lived 10 minutes away from Turbine's offices, I saw the radical shift in quality (for the worse) they company went through over the years. It was sad to witness and I'm still upset over what could have been.

 

You don't take an IP like LotR, hot off the release of 3 record breaking movies... and then not even beat the sub numbers of old dial up games...and then call it a great success.

 

First turbine never ever released its sub numbers so for you to state it never beat a dial up game just shows you are bias against lotro. Just so you know lotro has been around for over 5 yrs! A failed game would not have survived 5 yrs Many failed games have been around a lot longer. Anarchy Online? Vanguard?  would not be releasing another expansion NEXT MONTH!! See above, expansions mean very little. would not have the most preorders since moria would not be releasing the largest expansion since moria. That means almost nothing as a metric. LotRO has been limping along in semi obscurity since its launch. For the biggest IP in the MMO space, its sad. You can hate all you want. Just because it doesnt say it has 10 million players does not mean its a failed game.

All things considered for what it was SUPPOSED to be, its a pretty dismal failure. Now it didn't collapse in the same fashion as WAR or AOC or SWTOR, but it never did well as a game.

Since no game has done well in the west since WoW you mean no WoW clone has done well since WoW, to which I say... duh. Darkfall on the other hand, did quite well in the west. , I think it's a pretty hard call to make. Even GW2 (though I have every confidence GW2 will do extremely well) has yet to prove its mettle. From the list of MMOs, LoTRO is not a failure in any sense.

So from the list of failed MMOs LotRO isn't AS BIG a failure... which is what I have been saying. It still isn't a roaring success. Especially not compared to the amount of buzz it had in beta.

No, I mean no MMO period. Name a MMO that has done well in the West since WoW.

Already did. Darkfall.

Want another? Eve.

You saying "no MMO has done well since WoW" kind of backs up my argument that LotRO didn't do well, don't you think?

Darkfall did not do well, what's your criteria for well?

Eve came out before WoW. Like, wow.

Darkfall did incredibly well.

  Tibernicus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/15/12
Posts: 437

9/05/12 8:27:48 PM#171
Originally posted by meari

Btw I'll throw this out there.

CCP began with 21 staff only, now Eve has close to half a mil subs and 600 staff. By comparison (using Tiberninus logic, I don't care about Darkfall eitherway) Darkfall is an abysmal failure.

Eve has been around a lot longer than Darkfall, but it is repeating the same type of success that Eve had. But its clear you don't understand how logic or percentages work.

  User Deleted
9/05/12 8:30:18 PM#172
Originally posted by lifeordinary
No...... after a month, people will quit paying sub and in second month servers will begin to be merged. Third month Anet will announce that GW2 is going F2P.

  meari

Novice Member

Joined: 4/14/12
Posts: 104

9/05/12 8:42:44 PM#173
Originally posted by Tibernicus
Originally posted by meari

Btw I'll throw this out there.

CCP began with 21 staff only, now Eve has close to half a mil subs and 600 staff. By comparison (using Tiberninus logic, I don't care about Darkfall eitherway) Darkfall is an abysmal failure.

Eve has been around a lot longer than Darkfall, but it is repeating the same type of success that Eve had. But its clear you don't understand how logic or percentages work.

Fine let's play. In 2006 after 3 years, EVE already broke the 100k sub mark. What's Darkfall's sub after 3 years now?

  Tibernicus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/15/12
Posts: 437

9/05/12 8:51:23 PM#174
Originally posted by meari
Originally posted by Tibernicus
Originally posted by meari

Btw I'll throw this out there.

CCP began with 21 staff only, now Eve has close to half a mil subs and 600 staff. By comparison (using Tiberninus logic, I don't care about Darkfall eitherway) Darkfall is an abysmal failure.

Eve has been around a lot longer than Darkfall, but it is repeating the same type of success that Eve had. But its clear you don't understand how logic or percentages work.

Fine let's play. In 2006 after 3 years, EVE already broke the 100k sub mark. What's Darkfall's sub after 3 years now?

Darkfall started smaller than Eve did, and has a much harder game to play. After 3 years, last I checked DF was sitting at about 1 full server, and one half full server, which is about 15-20k. It's about to launch 2.0, which SHOULD catapult the game. The growth of the company cannot be denied.

  Vaross

MMORPG.COM Staff

Joined: 6/21/12
Posts: 409

9/05/12 8:51:34 PM#175

Keep it on topic people.

 

Guild Wars 2.

  Gaborik

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/10/08
Posts: 313

9/05/12 8:56:15 PM#176

Nothing Bad about GW2 either or V will punish you...

 

Please keep it on topic.  Would have been nice geez...

 

No GW2 will not suffer the same fate as SWTOR one was p2p one is b2p.

  NomadMorlock

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/09/07
Posts: 455

9/05/12 9:15:09 PM#177
Originally posted by hikaru77
Originally posted by Tibernicus

SWTOR failed because it was an instanced singleplayer game and people just ran out of content and stopped playing, like they do with singleplayer games. And because it did nothing new.

 

GW2 emphasizes community, long term RvR, and has a few nice innovations to keep people going.

LoL, you dont even need a grp in GW2, not even talk. Is even more intanced and it feel more singleplayer than swtor. GW2 doesnt have long term RvR, endgame is all about grind karma and do dungeons like any other MMO before, and do thing that you can do at level 1, Also, gw2 have nothing new or innovative, DE  are a quest with a timer, nothing dynamic on them. And you dont have NPC with quest, you have NPC with a heart and guess what, A QUEST. Fanboys are amazing, at the end only them will be playing the game. 

This is nothing like the game I'm playing. Ooh. You must be talking about the "other" Guild Wars 2.......

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