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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

Reviews & Impressions  » GW2 was my last hope for the genre....... so back to paper and pencil

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148 posts found
  Wraithone

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3563

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

9/04/12 8:20:54 AM#121
Originally posted by NBlitz
Originally posted by Wraithone

I wish you all the best.  I'm of two minds here. I quite agree, some of my best memories have been of interactions with other players, over the years. But also some of my worst memories. Its reached the point that I really have no interest in dealing with 95% plus of the gaming population, so being able to play solo has been a bonus.  

I'm very interested in seeing where MMO's go, as technology advances. Perhaps once VR manages to solve its various problems, and becomes wide spread, we will find more of the group interaction we are looking for.  Until that time, I'll play solo, and I wish you and your friends the very best of  luck and fun. 

Same as everything else in life, no? You take in the good with the bad. You can't have one without the other, imo. At least, not in this world.

At least not at this time period.  It didn't seem to be quite this bad, at the start, years and years ago, before gaming went main stream.  Sure, you still had the Goonie types, but not nearly as many entitlement, ignorant, out right barbarians as we see way too many of today.  As long as I find games entertaining, and I can play them solo (or with a few people I can stand to deal with), I'll stick around. 

  wowfan1996

Novice Member

Joined: 9/25/09
Posts: 741

9/04/12 8:27:19 AM#122
Originally posted by Wraithone
At least not at this time period.  It didn't seem to be quite this bad, at the start, years and years ago, before gaming went main stream.  Sure, you still had the Goonie types, but not nearly as many entitlement, ignorant, out right barbarians as we see way too many of today.  As long as I find games entertaining, and I can play them solo (or with a few people I can stand to deal with), I'll stick around. 

It's really funny how everyone who makes posts like that implies that he is an angel in the flesh and - most importantly - he has always been this way.

 

MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).

  Silentstorm

Elite Member

Joined: 9/29/06
Posts: 1118

9/04/12 8:33:16 AM#123
The problem with guys like the OP. Is they don't get the game is designed to be very optional.  You can solo and never say a word to anyone all the way to 80. Some people like that some people don't. But its nice to have the option there to not be bothered with fail trolls etc...You can also group and be very social that is up to you. No one is going to hold your hand and push you into the fray. My server people talk all the damn day so i don't know how you say no community is there. From the looks of it alot of people servers are the same. It sounds to me you want to have your hand held to make friends. Rather then getting off your backside and being a group leader or chat advocate. That's not a game flaw thats a flaw in you and many other guys who expect everyone to run to them and hold a convo.
  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4465

9/04/12 8:51:52 AM#124

Get some online buddies.

Trust me. Game's a #%*&#$ BLAST!

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  Wraithone

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3563

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

9/04/12 9:25:20 AM#125
Originally posted by wowfan1996
Originally posted by Wraithone
At least not at this time period.  It didn't seem to be quite this bad, at the start, years and years ago, before gaming went main stream.  Sure, you still had the Goonie types, but not nearly as many entitlement, ignorant, out right barbarians as we see way too many of today.  As long as I find games entertaining, and I can play them solo (or with a few people I can stand to deal with), I'll stick around. 

It's really funny how everyone who makes posts like that implies that he is an angel in the flesh and - most importantly - he has always been this way.

 

You do know that implications tend to be projections with many people?...  You might wish to examine your basic assumptions more carefully in the future. 

  lifeordinary

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/12
Posts: 691

9/04/12 9:27:44 AM#126
Originally posted by wowfan1996
Originally posted by Wraithone
At least not at this time period.  It didn't seem to be quite this bad, at the start, years and years ago, before gaming went main stream.  Sure, you still had the Goonie types, but not nearly as many entitlement, ignorant, out right barbarians as we see way too many of today.  As long as I find games entertaining, and I can play them solo (or with a few people I can stand to deal with), I'll stick around. 

It's really funny how everyone who makes posts like that implies that he is an angel in the flesh and - most importantly - he has always been this way.

 

Don't know about others, but i am indeed angel in flesh..well as long as you don't ruffle my feathers (literally).

  rutaq

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/08/06
Posts: 413

9/04/12 9:50:11 AM#127
Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by BadSpock

Forced grouping does not work.

The sooner ya'll accept that, the better you'll feel.

Find people who LIKE to play together, who LIKE to play 100% grouped 100% of the time, and roll with them.

Any game that makes you sit in town spamming LFG will fail in 2012 - accept that and move on.

Actually, forced grouping do work but only in stanced CORPGs like DDO and GW1. A specific small party game with instances still work (as long as you dont overcharge it).

But CORPGs are a very specific type of games and even in them you can usually replace a player by a bot if needed.

Everquest and FF XI are in the past and would never become hits today, but a P&P styled CORPG could still work fine.

 

 I agree that an MMO designed around forced grouping wouldn't be a Mainstream success.  But it could be successful given the number of people out there that keep asking for a return to an EQ like playstyle.

 

Success for an MMO seems to be as simple as 20,000 - 30,000 subscribing customers.   Look at the number of MMOs that are still around today after 5+ years of supposed failure.  

 

Back in the day an active healthly server only needed about 10000 total players /  1500 - 2000  concurrent players.   I am not sure if the technology has evolved enough for that to provide enough money to be sustainable but the "old school" niche market is at least that large.

 

 

  Drachasor

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 2693

9/04/12 9:51:19 AM#128
Originally posted by Wraithone
Originally posted by wowfan1996
Originally posted by Wraithone
At least not at this time period.  It didn't seem to be quite this bad, at the start, years and years ago, before gaming went main stream.  Sure, you still had the Goonie types, but not nearly as many entitlement, ignorant, out right barbarians as we see way too many of today.  As long as I find games entertaining, and I can play them solo (or with a few people I can stand to deal with), I'll stick around. 

It's really funny how everyone who makes posts like that implies that he is an angel in the flesh and - most importantly - he has always been this way.

 

You do know that implications tend to be projections with many people?...  You might wish to examine your basic assumptions more carefully in the future. 

Eh, what the heck is this guys, grade school?  I'll counter with the fact that I'm made out of long chained polymers whereas you're an adhesive.

Anyhow, the old school MMOs are not coming back.  Companies have figured out a lot more people want games that don't have to fill up their lives and don't force you to wait until you find a group before you can do anything.  Forced grouping does more to affect how people interact than anything else, honestly, because people that are jerks don't get groups (without modifying their behavior).  Well, unless they are leading them.  People forget how often this can hurt perfectly good people.  It also hurts a lot of people that aren't great at the game.  So you have to tell your friends to cheese it if they don't measure up to snuff.    If you go the WoW route to make grouping easier, then that also makes it so that the game isn't as brutal towards others and behavior doesn't change much -- heck, WoW's method makes behavior worse, but I don't think they consider how their mechanics affect their community.

So then you go with forced grouping and people have to either schedule their time for the game or wait for tens of minutes or hours to try to find a group.  The vast majority of gamers don't like that.  I'm with them.  I don't want to schedule my fun or waste time waiting for it.

So far in GW2 I've been pleased with the community personally.  People are friendly even if being friendly doesn't require words.  Sometimes there is talking sometimes there isn't.  I'm looking forward to trying some explorable dungeons when I get into my 30s.  I think the system does a lot to encourage people to be friendly and helpful.  It rewards helping others you come across.

Like I've said before.  I don't know what the OP is thinking.  No MMO has ever been like a PnP game.  Sandboxes, themeparks, whatever...they rather pale in comparison if you are looking for a tight-knit group working together in a world that is limited by one's imagination.

On the other hand, if you are looking to make friends in an MMO, then it isn't hard.  Just talk to people and do some things with them.  Just because the game doesn't force you to do so doesn't mean you can't speak up yourself.  I made two friends and got a guild invite without even trying by the time I was level 10.  I will say you should probably give it more than a week, especially in a game where it can be easy to get lost in the experience.  Declaring a game like GW2 a failure in the so quickly seems a bit silly to me.  There's certainly content out there for organized groups.

  TeknoBug

Novice Member

Joined: 10/13/07
Posts: 2166

9/04/12 10:08:38 AM#129


Originally posted by hardicon
op, the problem is mmo games now are being made to satisfy the solo gamer, the single player game type of player.

^ that's one of the biggest problems in the MMO industry, of course you dn't want to be FORCED to group but grouping should be encouraged for better xp, better game experience, etc.


The guild I've been with since 2003-04 is a sandbox centric guild, we're based around helping each other out and games like WoW and SWTOR doesn't work for us because they're too solo centric so we've been playing SWG and GW2 seems to fit our guild's focus and we've been rolling along in it. We've had a few members join our guild and want things done for them and they don't last long with our guild and either leave or get kicked out (for eg in SWTOR one guy had trouble getting Columi/Rakata gear so we invited him to the guild and got him some in operations then he went off PUG'ing operations and leaving the guild without any thanks), we're not an anti-social guild full of teenaged nerds that want things for themselves and there's way too many of those types of guilds around.


  Naevius

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/26/12
Posts: 317

9/04/12 10:12:41 AM#130
No computer RPG is or was  like the pen and paper experience, and forced grouping with strangers is not the answer. The whole point of P&P RPGs was shared storytelling with friends. Hard to do online.
  TeknoBug

Novice Member

Joined: 10/13/07
Posts: 2166

9/04/12 10:14:27 AM#131


Originally posted by Silentstorm
The problem with guys like the OP. Is they don't get the game is designed to be very optional.  You can solo and never say a word to anyone all the way to 80. Some people like that some people don't. But its nice to have the option there to not be bothered with fail trolls etc...You can also group and be very social that is up to you. No one is going to hold your hand and push you into the fray. My server people talk all the damn day so i don't know how you say no community is there. From the looks of it alot of people servers are the same. It sounds to me you want to have your hand held to make friends. Rather then getting off your backside and being a group leader or chat advocate. That's not a game flaw thats a flaw in you and many other guys who expect everyone to run to them and hold a convo.

Oh yeah on Yak's Bend, the /map chat is hopping, I've had funny conversations in Lion's Arch. Leveling to 80 all the way by yourself is going to get really slow as you get higher, when you're grouped you get bonus xp and that makes a massive difference, I dinged 3 levels yesterday being grouped with 5 of my other guildies whereas I would've only gotten 1 level without. And going around healing/rezzing/buffing people in zone events gets you brownie points with other players.


  HorrorScope

Novice Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 612

9/04/12 10:19:20 AM#132
Originally posted by Gishgeron

I'm confused...everyone seems to say they WANT all the forced grouping of yesteryear.  Yet, when a game releases with such a design in mind, no one played it.  Vanguard was THAT game.  And it bombed.  The problem has less to do with what the genre provdes you guys, and more to do with you.  Do you know why we stopped enjoying forced grouping crap?  Because we got old.  We got responsibilities.  We got jobs, houses, kids, wives....and all of those things demanded our time in more important ways than gaming.

 

Now we dont have time for a hour spent just LOOKING for a group.  Sorry, but the genre still provides those games.  We just hate them now.  And thats okay, because its part of growing up.

Truth. We all say we want this perfect mmo, but if it ever came out the way we describe it, I bet it would suck and bomb.

  S1LentKiller

Novice Member

Joined: 9/09/04
Posts: 72

9/04/12 10:28:51 AM#133
Originally posted by Legere
not that I have much hope for it, but give eq3 a try when that comes out

I loved EQ1 but after EQ1 SoE been screwing up everything. PS2 looks good right now because its in beta and the cash shop isn't open yet. But once its open its a P2W game. Yes i called it out. SoE's greed makes every great game turn to Sh*t.

  MindTrigger

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/19/07
Posts: 2628

9/04/12 10:35:00 AM#134
Originally posted by Nadia
personally, guilds go a long way to making a difference w community

This is standard for modern themepark games.  When you play a sandbox, and players have to band together not only to survive, but to accomplish both large and medium goals, then things get very social.

I still say Star Wars Galaxies had the best social interaction I've seen in an MMO, and that was because of features people would now angrily call "forced interaction".   I prefer to call it player interdependency, but to each their own.

For themeparks, guilds have replaced most other types of social interaction, and this has been true for the last several years.  Also, most guilds are using voice chat now, and if you opt out of that you may not be involved in the core group of your guild.

 

A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  teakinator

Novice Member

Joined: 11/30/07
Posts: 14

 
OP  9/04/12 10:51:09 AM#135
Originally posted by Hokie
Originally posted by teakinator
Originally posted by StanlyStanko

If you're going PnP, dig up some Shadowrun!

Break from the cartoony high fantasy for awhile.

I also DM Traveller Pencil and Paper too!

Wasnt Traveller the predecessor to Star Frontiers?

Ive always heard about Traveller but could never find the sourcebooks for it.

Marc Miller (the inventor of Traveller) still sells the old books on his website farfuture.net.  He is also working on Traveller 5 as a kickstart project (www.kickstarter/projects/traveller5/Traveller-5th-edition).

 

I like the Mongoose Traveller (www.mongoosepublishing.com/RPGs/Traveller.html.

 

For those that have asked, I am forming the PnP campaign in the Boston area.

 

To the guy who is writing a research paper on the body size of old-school gamers, I am 41 years old, 5'11", 180lbs.  I do watch what I eat and workout 4 days a week.

 

To the poster  who provided the information on a Pathfinder MMO -- thanks, I diidn't know that --- I will check that out.

  teakinator

Novice Member

Joined: 11/30/07
Posts: 14

 
OP  9/04/12 11:02:03 AM#136
Originally posted by MindTrigger
Originally posted by Nadia
personally, guilds go a long way to making a difference w community

This is standard for modern themepark games.  When you play a sandbox, and players have to band together not only to survive, but to accomplish both large and medium goals, then things get very social.

I still say Star Wars Galaxies had the best social interaction I've seen in an MMO, and that was because of features people would now angrily call "forced interaction".   I prefer to call it player interdependency, but to each their own.

For themeparks, guilds have replaced most other types of social interaction, and this has been true for the last several years.  Also, most guilds are using voice chat now, and if you opt out of that you may not be involved in the core group of your guild.

 

That it is exactly my point in the original post.  I too played SWG and interaction came naturally because of the design of the came. The starports were really hoping places -- the interaction, the vendors, doctors, entertainers --- everyone had a role and contributed and you had to to interact to survive.

  heavy3p0

Novice Member

Joined: 2/28/06
Posts: 16

9/04/12 11:09:45 AM#137
Personally i disagree with the OP's premise on the grounds that the people i group with in MMO's are the same people i played P&P with. From a social stand point, for me the only difference is being virtually present instead of physically present with my group.
  JoeyMMO

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/09/11
Posts: 1319

To busy playing GW2 to post much around here... *shrug*

9/04/12 11:34:52 AM#138
Originally posted by teakinator

*snip*

So my departure from GW2 (and retirement from MMOs) should not be taken as a reflection on the gameplay, but instead a fundamental flaw in the MMO market--- the lost art of meaningful and longer term interaction with other players.  Prior to my retirement, I choose to play MMOs over Single-player RPG because I desired the company of other individuals to create shared memories, experiences, and friendships.  I have been playing GW2 since beta and found that there is very minimal chatting…. People are just too busy smashing buttons.  Quests are short and travel distances are short… it seems that others who are playing this game just don’t have the same need that I do for the connection with other players.  So farewell MMOs….. I will be slaying my dragons with 4 friends in the same room, a number of cold beers, plastic dice, metal miniatures and graph paper.

Teak Dharan

 If you're lookinf for meaningful and long term interaction with other players then P&P is the way to go. You just can't touch that with online contacts.

  waynejr2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3714

RIP City of Heroes!

9/04/12 11:45:14 AM#139
Originally posted by heavy3p0
Personally i disagree with the OP's premise on the grounds that the people i group with in MMO's are the same people i played P&P with. From a social stand point, for me the only difference is being virtually present instead of physically present with my group.

So you are say that is true for everyone else or that your case is a great exception to the rule.

  DrunkWolf

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/07/09
Posts: 1059

9/04/12 11:59:47 AM#140
Originally posted by teakinator

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I have been playing MMOs since Everquest and I have noticed a disturbing trend.  Prior to EQ, those of us that loved the fantasy genre played roleplaying games with dice, paper, pencil and a group of friends.  The game was best enjoyed with a group, all contributing both through their charaacters skills but probably even more importantly through their wit and roleplaying.  The memories of those years of paper and pencil gaming will last me a lifetime and I think of them fondly.

Of course, as technology allowed our paper and pencil games to move to computer (i.e., Bards Tale, Ultima and Wizardry) and ultimately the internet (Everquest) the games at the beginning of the computer version of the fantasy genre were very similar to paper and pencil gaming as they placed a huge emphasis on grouping for EVERYTHING.  I have played every major MMO since EQ1 and while the game play and graphics are always improving, the PvE part of the games is not in my opinion.  Quests in EQ were hard and long.  EQOA had questlines that took weeks to complete and you needed a group for basically every part of the quest.  EQ2 came out and added a solo-element to the game.  While for me at first this was a welcomed change and allowed me to enjoy the genre without the time sink necessary to have a regular group, I didn’t realize until Guild Wars 2 how much I have missed grouping as a requirement and how much MMOs have changed, negatively in my opinion, since EQ1.

I will give GW2 great applause for a very polished gameplay experience but what is missing in mind (and RIFT had the same problem) is the community.  No one really chats and there is very little reason to group.  As an old paper and pencil fuddy-duddy from the 1970s what is missing from GW2 (and it is missing from RIFT, WOW, SWTOR, LOTRO and others) is the need to group for more than just raids or dungeons.  Grouping for regular grinding or epic quests creates lots of opportunities for meaningful and prolonged interaction, banter,  which lead to meaningful in-game friendships.With the elimination of a standalone healer class this downward slide away from grouping was the last straw for me. 

So, to those that I have played with online (Dairith, Qen, Nicci, Windbear, Xerios, Windbear, and Maxpain) thank you for the memories from the EQ and WoW franchise.  As of an hour ago, I have decided that GW2 was the last MMO I will ever play.  I have deleted the game from the computer and actually pulled out my paper and pencil PATHFINDER books and am forming a local group of adults (have 4 so far) and we are going to have the interaction that we hoped could have been achieved from videogames.   So my departure from GW2 (and retirement from MMOs) should not be taken as a reflection on the gameplay, but instead a fundamental flaw in the MMO market--- the lost art of meaningful and longer term interaction with other players.  Prior to my retirement, I choose to play MMOs over Single-player RPG because I desired the company of other individuals to create shared memories, experiences, and friendships.  I have been playing GW2 since beta and found that there is very minimal chatting…. People are just too busy smashing buttons.  Quests are short and travel distances are short… it seems that others who are playing this game just don’t have the same need that I do for the connection with other players.  So farewell MMOs….. I will be slaying my dragons with 4 friends in the same room, a number of cold beers, plastic dice, metal miniatures and graph paper.

Teak Dharan

 im with you man, GW2 has also retired me from MMOs. it was my last hope but just didnt do it for me. and for those who say maybe im burnt out on MMOs or what ever thats a load of BS. for myself its either back to Asherons Call were i can explore a real open world or just sticking with fps and all the aimbotters that go with it =/

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