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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

Reviews & Impressions  » GW2 was my last hope for the genre....... so back to paper and pencil

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148 posts found
  teakinator

Novice Member

Joined: 11/30/07
Posts: 14

 
OP  9/03/12 10:07:26 PM#61
Originally posted by StanlyStanko

If you're going PnP, dig up some Shadowrun!

Break from the cartoony high fantasy for awhile.

I also DM Traveller Pencil and Paper too!

  HorrorScope

Novice Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 612

9/03/12 10:12:29 PM#62
Originally posted by Souldrainer
Originally posted by HorrorScope
Originally posted by Souldrainer
Gary Gygax once commented that he could never fully appreciate MMOs, because he said (paraphrasing) that the social interactions would be diminished when compared to actually being in a room with people. I agree with him, too. But also, pen and paper games allow you to literally do anything. You can throw sand in an enemy's eyes, forge a permanent alliance, start your own country, have children, change careers, lose a limb, become possessed, enter another plane of existence, go insane, etc etc etc. MMOs can never compete with that.

Silly. PnP could never have 10,000 people sit at a table. This isn't even apples and oranges. I could name things PnP could never do that a mmo could.

This could be looked at the same craving as "My first mmo", face it yesteryear is always better then the herenow, at least in our memories.

 

 

I disagree. You could have 10,000 people gaming in pen and paper... with the right tools. Why would you want to, though? With that many people, it becomes a mindless blob with very little social interaction . So, if you're going to name something that can't be done in PNP, name it.

Speed of action. Inventory. Auction House. Several quests in que. Gathering. Tons of stuff really.

One mentioned all these wodnerful things "you could do with PnP", but who ever did to those levels or levels mmo's allow for. I mention gathering/crafting. It's a very sound mechanic in a mmo. You visually see the resource you grab it. You put it in your inventory, later you work it or trade it for other needs. You end up with goods. To say that happens in a PnP? Ummm.... So how does that work, you are outside running quest, do you do a DM role on "Did I just see a Snozberry bush?". DM see's if he allows that, then roles. You many now have it. How often are you allowed to call for that role? When you get in dungeon are you rolling in there for mushrooms etc?

I did some DnD back in the late 70's. It was basically the modules which where dungeon runs. Are people today creating worlds they PnP through with all these MMO options? I simply am not aware of that to any type of degree.

 

  Ender4

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2050

9/03/12 10:18:28 PM#63

You do realize Gary Gygax made D&D while sitting in a strip joint with a bunch of other loser friends of his and they had made multiple other failed games before finally hitting it big by basically copying lord of the rings. It is one of the crappier RPG made even though it obviously is one of the most influential ones(and one i love but I can at least be realistic about here). Lets not pretend he was some huge visionary that we should look to for advice on gaming.

  Epicent

Novice Member

Joined: 9/16/10
Posts: 670

Die clickers Die!!!

9/03/12 10:18:29 PM#64
old school pencil and paper games...........you know something........why hasn't any one made a paper and pencil video game yet. What I mean is you could have a level editor and dungeon master editor. And you could upload levels onto the game and other people could play it. Im sure it could be done and I think it would be a blast. Id def buy it.
  Epicent

Novice Member

Joined: 9/16/10
Posts: 670

Die clickers Die!!!

9/03/12 10:20:39 PM#65
actually check this out.   http://www.fantasygrounds.com/   this seems cool. Im gonna read on it for a bit.
  avalon1000

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 720

9/03/12 10:23:13 PM#66
Originally posted by Nadia
personally, guilds go a long way to making a difference w community

This and map chat is quite active on the server I am on.

  wowfan1996

Novice Member

Joined: 9/25/09
Posts: 741

9/03/12 10:40:34 PM#67
Originally posted by teakinator
I will give GW2 great applause for a very polished gameplay experience but what is missing in mind (and RIFT had the same problem) is the community.  No one really chats and there is very little reason to group.

GW2 has great community but you're doing it wrong. You're basically in a group with everyone who is close enough at the moment as you don't need to compete for mobs or loot. So /s is your party chat now. Switch to it and chat as much as you want.

PnP games will always be different from MMOs because you generally play PnP with your friends, not with random people you just met on the street. But you *can* play MMOs like you would play PnP games - this simply requires the same effort from you and your RL friends. You need to schedule your play time, set up some voice chat, log in together and group up. In fact GW2 does more than any other MMO to facilitate this playstyle. You can play outside the scheduled time and you won't outlevel content you'll be grouping for next time because your level in GW2 is dynamically adjusted and you still get XP from lower level zones. 

MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).

  teakinator

Novice Member

Joined: 11/30/07
Posts: 14

 
OP  9/03/12 10:47:17 PM#68
Originally posted by rathalas22
Ifeel for you OP. I went back to PnP about a year ago. I have much more fun with that than any of the recent MMORPGs, if you can even call them that anymore. The only issue with PnP is that you can't play whenever you want.  I hope it works out well for you.

I do play PnP via PbP, which is a good way to slowly enjoy the RPing that MMOs have lost in between actual in-person gaming sessions.  

The Obsidianportal is an excellent place to find a PbP campaign.

http://www.obsidianportal.com/

  wowfan1996

Novice Member

Joined: 9/25/09
Posts: 741

9/03/12 10:47:19 PM#69
Originally posted by RebelScum99

In before "It must be the server you're on, because on MY server everyone is very social and helpful!"  nonsense.  

It *must* be the server, dude, because on Far Shiverpeaks EU everyone is social enough (without them becoming annoying) and helpful enough (without forcing me to look for places where I can finally solo something).

MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).

  Gishgeron

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 1297

9/03/12 10:49:22 PM#70

I'm confused...everyone seems to say they WANT all the forced grouping of yesteryear.  Yet, when a game releases with such a design in mind, no one played it.  Vanguard was THAT game.  And it bombed.  The problem has less to do with what the genre provdes you guys, and more to do with you.  Do you know why we stopped enjoying forced grouping crap?  Because we got old.  We got responsibilities.  We got jobs, houses, kids, wives....and all of those things demanded our time in more important ways than gaming.

 

Now we dont have time for a hour spent just LOOKING for a group.  Sorry, but the genre still provides those games.  We just hate them now.  And thats okay, because its part of growing up.

  aznxdreadful

Novice Member

Joined: 8/07/07
Posts: 21

9/03/12 10:52:22 PM#71
its called getting a GUILD. lol... if community is your problem find a guild mainly in tarnished coast server which is the unofficial RP server of USA, forgot the EU one but google guildwars2roleplayer and u can get it.
  teakinator

Novice Member

Joined: 11/30/07
Posts: 14

 
OP  9/03/12 10:57:02 PM#72
Originally posted by Souldrainer
Gary Gygax once commented that he could never fully appreciate MMOs, because he said (paraphrasing) that the social interactions would be diminished when compared to actually being in a room with people. I agree with him, too. But also, pen and paper games allow you to literally do anything. You can throw sand in an enemy's eyes, forge a permanent alliance, start your own country, have children, change careers, lose a limb, become possessed, enter another plane of existence, go insane, etc etc etc. MMOs can never compete with that.

Amen! That is exactly my feeling.

I did use Vent in RIFT and WoW but just chatting without grouping is not the same thing.  Back in early WoW, when Crowd Control was critical to beating dungeons you HAD to chat before major fights.  Then Lich King came out and the dungeon and raid design eliminated the need for Crowd Control so nobody chatted or talked strategy in groups... the tank rushed in grabbed all the agro and we DPS it down.  The strategy and planning were gone.  It became a button smashing affair.  Perhaps my disillusion with MMOs is bath game mechancis and the lack of open-endness and the lack of grouping with the same players night after night (way before we became a guild) to tackle hard stuff that required planning, talking and then executing. For WoW Raids, this did happen for me and I was in a great guild but that guild was my Everquest guild that moved to Wow.  What I am talking about is not grouping for dungeons or raids (of course you need that) but REGULAR QUEST stuff.  EQ quests were freaking hard and you needed groups so EVERYONE needed groups and everyone was looking for form them.  Because of this, if you were a jerk on the server word would get around and you would be hard-pressed to find a group. In others the social dynamics of having to be somewhat normal in order to fit a role in that community was very important. Player reputations meant a lot and were probably the most valuable in-game "currency" you had.  In otherwords, it was a REAL community, not like this crap that exists in current MMOs.

  teakinator

Novice Member

Joined: 11/30/07
Posts: 14

 
OP  9/03/12 11:04:34 PM#73
Originally posted by Gishgeron

I'm confused...everyone seems to say they WANT all the forced grouping of yesteryear.  Yet, when a game releases with such a design in mind, no one played it.  Vanguard was THAT game.  And it bombed.  The problem has less to do with what the genre provdes you guys, and more to do with you.  Do you know why we stopped enjoying forced grouping crap?  Because we got old.  We got responsibilities.  We got jobs, houses, kids, wives....and all of those things demanded our time in more important ways than gaming.

 

Now we dont have time for a hour spent just LOOKING for a group.  Sorry, but the genre still provides those games.  We just hate them now.  And thats okay, because its part of growing up.

I do play Vanguard and have since Beta.   Vanguard is the closest thing to EQ (that isn't EQ) but it has its problems. The world is huge but empty of mobs.  The grouping in Vanguard is great but it is a sub-fee (yes, I know it just went F2P but it is not realy playable as a F2P).  

  NorseGod

Novice Member

Joined: 2/28/12
Posts: 573

9/03/12 11:13:26 PM#74

The MMORPG community has changed for the worse ever since WoW. Too many kiddies. Too many FPS "leets". Too much OMGWTFBBQLOLZ noob l2p, internet jerk spam in chat (yes, it was funny back in 2004).

From SWG(pre-CU), I moved to EVE. This was also my first time using TS/Vent. As soon as I logged in, I get shouted at by some game general toughguy telling me what to do the second I logged in everyday.

I hated TS/Vent even more later playing other games and the sounds of some people's voices made me question why I bother playing games at all. They don't sound like anyone I would ever talk to IRL. Definately nobody I would take orders from. So, I avoid TS/Vent and anything that requires me to use it.

I miss the grouping in EQ, AO, and SWG. But, I can't do it again with this present community. I'd rather solo and do pugs. I see all of the same crap anyways. I still have fun. I still give a hand to someone near me (usually to help them kill quest mobs, so I can do mine without them KOSing). I collect the same amount of tokens (rolls eyes) to turn in for the same exact gear as the "leet plyrz".

Nope, I'm done with the 14yr olds that have to go eat or to bed mid-raid, the whiney-voiced nerds, and the sausage-fingered toughguys screaming in my headset. I don't allow that IRL, not going to in games either. I'm also tired of being told where to stand, what attack to spam, and that I should change some piece of gear for 0.3% extra dmg.

Yes, I know what tile on the floor to stand on and to keep pressing the "3" key over and over while I surf the web on my other monitor. Try not to have a stroke telling every single person in the raid where to stand and what button to spam for 15 minutes straight so you can get the epic loot because you're "the guild leader".

Btw, ever been in a guild where you thought your only purpose was to gear up the "leader" and nobody else? Is this why they create them in the first place? I bet this is the reason why half these guilds exist, not "community".

Sadly "MMORPGs" have become lobby-based (city hubs) co-Ops with a single-player option. There will never be a community again. Unless you enjoy filling raid spots so the leader and his friend or two can get epic loot. "What's that? You need to grind mobs to make some money, nah, come to the dungeon, I need gear."

That is why solo-friendly is good these days. At least in my view. Time isn't the issue for me like others. I just hate the players that WoW brought to the genre that it gets praised for.

 

 

  elm33

Novice Member

Joined: 7/14/10
Posts: 16

9/03/12 11:19:35 PM#75
OP, you speak the truth. I could not agree more. 

  ChromeBallz

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/31/04
Posts: 273

9/03/12 11:44:12 PM#76


Originally posted by teakinator
Original Post

I would agree on the incessant persistence to focus on solo play. Rather than including a good amount of group-only content for all content types (not just dungeons), companies insist that you have to be able to do almost everything solo.

While there is some merit to this kind of thinking, it has gone a bit too far.

One does have to remember though that p&p rpgs can't be played 'on the fly'. there's a serious commitment to a session in time and date, whereas MMO's should have some solo content to keep you going when your friends aren't there.

Playing: EVE
Played (more than 1 month): WoW, Tera, GW2, L2, WAR, AoC, DnL, GW, LotRO, EQ2, TOR, CoH, STO, TSW
Tried (trial, up to 1 month): EQ, UO, AO, EnB, TCoS, Fury, Ryzom, EU, DDO, TR, RF, CO, Aion, VG

  Arakazi

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/23/09
Posts: 834

9/04/12 12:10:19 AM#77

I'm sympathetic to the OP but understand why games like Rift and GW2 have been designed like that.  GW2 is fast action game and when a event happens you have to act quickly and not have to  hunt around for groups. It's part of it's appeal in a certain way. However, Gw2 Iin my experience on silverpeak server has been the least socially interactive MMO I have played. However, this is partly the fault of players and not just game design. If you do not make a real effort and expect people just to come up to you and start chatting away, your in for a shock because that doesn't happen. You have to join a guild and talk to your gang.

However, for an MMO to have a long term future and a loyal following a vibrant and friendly community is a must. Some MMO's like Vanguard survive because of it's strong community rather than the merits of the game. I always worry about the long term impact of making grouping too easy and games too solo friendly although I admit I am one of these people that solo often and use dungeon finders and group finders, however if most people are like me, then they will have no real long term commitment other than logging on for a few moments to PvP with a few RL friends before logging out. 

 

BTW the flashing ads on this site make me want to puch the screen.

  rutaq

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/08/06
Posts: 414

9/04/12 12:48:03 AM#78
Originally posted by Gishgeron

I'm confused...everyone seems to say they WANT all the forced grouping of yesteryear.  Yet, when a game releases with such a design in mind, no one played it.  Vanguard was THAT game.  And it bombed.  The problem has less to do with what the genre provdes you guys, and more to do with you.  Do you know why we stopped enjoying forced grouping crap?  Because we got old.  We got responsibilities.  We got jobs, houses, kids, wives....and all of those things demanded our time in more important ways than gaming.

 

Now we dont have time for a hour spent just LOOKING for a group.  Sorry, but the genre still provides those games.  We just hate them now.  And thats okay, because its part of growing up.

 

Hmmm,  I am not sure if you simple weren't around for the launch of Vanguard or you are one of the ADHD players that can't handle the challenge of a real game and are desperate to paint old school MMOs in a bad light.   EIther way your portrayal of the failure of Vanguard isn't accurate and your assumption that getting old prohibits you from playing something more involved than the vapid arcade game called GW2 is a problem most "older" gamers like myself don't share.

 

Quick recap of what went down....  Vanguard was on track to bring the MMO genre back towards it's roots of EQ.  The game had a HUGE fan base since it was being developed by one of the founders of the entire MMO genre but sadly it struggled with it's original producer ( Microsoft ) who forced many WoWish changes to the old school ideals.

Sadly as Closed Beta progressed and more  Wow'ishness was added to the game and the forums overflowed with complaints from the old school players that were hoping to find a new MMO home.   The Devs stopped trying to defend the changes and simply went quiet,  in retrospect we found out after launch that Microsoft pulled out and left Sigil with a half completed game and little resources left to continue.

 

Sigil was between a rock and hardplace and was forced to find another Producer who turned out to have little patience and after some delays force Sigil to launch the game in it's current unstable Beta state.  

 

That is what killed Vanguard not the old school mechanics like forced grouping,  non instanced open world Dungeons,  camping rare spawn mobs or XP loss.

 

Many of us diehard player stuck with the game as well as we could for 4 months until Sony bought it and basically layed off the entire staff.   Then with almost no support staff left, I think it dwindle to actually 3 people and the HUGE amount of bugs my entire guild stepped away. 

 

Then over the next couple of years the handful of  Sony staff  tried to WoW'ify things even more,  they added fast travel teleports , removed any appreciable risk/penalty for death, nerfed monster damage and eventually removed PvP.

 

 

 

  Parameter

Novice Member

Joined: 11/03/03
Posts: 59

9/04/12 1:13:30 AM#79
Originally posted by NorseGod

The MMORPG community has changed for the worse ever since WoW. Too many kiddies. Too many FPS "leets". Too much OMGWTFBBQLOLZ noob l2p, internet jerk spam in chat (yes, it was funny back in 2004).

From SWG(pre-CU), I moved to EVE. This was also my first time using TS/Vent. As soon as I logged in, I get shouted at by some game general toughguy telling me what to do the second I logged in everyday.

I hated TS/Vent even more later playing other games and the sounds of some people's voices made me question why I bother playing games at all. They don't sound like anyone I would ever talk to IRL. Definately nobody I would take orders from. So, I avoid TS/Vent and anything that requires me to use it.

I miss the grouping in EQ, AO, and SWG. But, I can't do it again with this present community. I'd rather solo and do pugs. I see all of the same crap anyways. I still have fun. I still give a hand to someone near me (usually to help them kill quest mobs, so I can do mine without them KOSing). I collect the same amount of tokens (rolls eyes) to turn in for the same exact gear as the "leet plyrz".

Nope, I'm done with the 14yr olds that have to go eat or to bed mid-raid, the whiney-voiced nerds, and the sausage-fingered toughguys screaming in my headset. I don't allow that IRL, not going to in games either. I'm also tired of being told where to stand, what attack to spam, and that I should change some piece of gear for 0.3% extra dmg.

Yes, I know what tile on the floor to stand on and to keep pressing the "3" key over and over while I surf the web on my other monitor. Try not to have a stroke telling every single person in the raid where to stand and what button to spam for 15 minutes straight so you can get the epic loot because you're "the guild leader".

Btw, ever been in a guild where you thought your only purpose was to gear up the "leader" and nobody else? Is this why they create them in the first place? I bet this is the reason why half these guilds exist, not "community".

Sadly "MMORPGs" have become lobby-based (city hubs) co-Ops with a single-player option. There will never be a community again. Unless you enjoy filling raid spots so the leader and his friend or two can get epic loot. "What's that? You need to grind mobs to make some money, nah, come to the dungeon, I need gear."

That is why solo-friendly is good these days. At least in my view. Time isn't the issue for me like others. I just hate the players that WoW brought to the genre that it gets praised for.

 

 

lol.  This man is angry.  And unfortunately, this man doesn't have a grasp on the current state of MMO gaming because he chooses to surround himself with people as he described them.  I have no doubt, sir, you ran into piss-poor members of a community - the fact that you allowed yourself to be put into those situations, though, is what made me laugh.  For a grown man, you should be ashamed of yourself to have tolerated something like that.

 

I can tell you, from my personal experiences, I have never found myself in a situation like that more than once.  I have been playing MMOs for almost 20 years, and I am just as much in love with the genre today as I was when I first started.  Im sorry that you chose to allow situations like the one you described to continue and that you have an innate ability to find scrubs in an online community.

  pacov

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/26/10
Posts: 317

9/04/12 1:26:38 AM#80

once you do this and still say your opinion I will applaud you...

1) Get to level 70+

2) Go to Orr

3) Try to do stuff on your own...

4) Realize how essential grouping up with people is

5) Apologize

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