Originally posted by Foomerang

Op, your first mistake was putting all your mmo hopes into an esport action mmo. Gotta diversify your funds, yo. Wildstar, world of darkness, planetside 2, pso2, repopulation, archeage. Theres always something to look forward to. Gw2 didnt do it for ya? Thats fine theres plenty more on the way.

I am stoked for The Repopulation and Archeage. Really can't wait!

Originally posted by Souldrainer
Gary Gygax once commented that he could never fully appreciate MMOs, because he said (paraphrasing) that the social interactions would be diminished when compared to actually being in a room with people. I agree with him, too. But also, pen and paper games allow you to literally do anything. You can throw sand in an enemy's eyes, forge a permanent alliance, start your own country, have children, change careers, lose a limb, become possessed, enter another plane of existence, go insane, etc etc etc. MMOs can never compete with that.

i am not an old school mmo player. i did not play UO or EQ, my first mmo was WoW in '05. however i have played PnP D&D and i can understand your craving.

sadly it is much like looking for that same enjoyment you get from reading a good book from your tv. it's just not the same, one stimulates your immagination and the other captures your attention. it's just 2 different things.

there is a reason GW2 is F2P and that is it's not a world you live in, it's a theme park you visit when you have some time to kill. it was always going to be that and nothing more.

don't be too hard on the game, it was never ment for immersion and depth, that's what games like EvE are for.  

Originally posted by Souldrainer
Gary Gygax once commented that he could never fully appreciate MMOs, because he said (paraphrasing) that the social interactions would be diminished when compared to actually being in a room with people. I agree with him, too. But also, pen and paper games allow you to literally do anything. You can throw sand in an enemy's eyes, forge a permanent alliance, start your own country, have children, change careers, lose a limb, become possessed, enter another plane of existence, go insane, etc etc etc. MMOs can never compete with that.

Silly. PnP could never have 10,000 people sit at a table. This isn't even apples and oranges. I could name things PnP could never do that a mmo could.

This could be looked at the same craving as "My first mmo", face it yesteryear is always better then the herenow, at least in our memories.

Originally posted by Beacker

Originally posted by Foomerang

Op, your first mistake was putting all your mmo hopes into an esport action mmo. Gotta diversify your funds, yo. Wildstar, world of darkness, planetside 2, pso2, repopulation, archeage. Theres always something to look forward to. Gw2 didnt do it for ya? Thats fine theres plenty more on the way.

I am stoked for The Repopulation and Archeage. Really can't wait!

Here we go again. Play it cool and be pleasantly surprised. It will suit you better.

I really enjoy the game but it for some reason is the least social MMO's I've played (and I've played SWTOR and TSW).  Sure you all fight together but the actual communication is almost zero.  Maybe it's the chat colors being a bit different or the NPCs clogging up the chat window...not sure.

Really my only gripe with the game other than the cartoon fantasy setting is the odd lack of communication.  I guess at least in other MMO's they will design areas that are group only or solo crazy challenges.  Oh and the developer lack of communication seems like they are above posting info to the playerbase.  Maybe it's the lack of a sub the devs don't feel like they need to have patch notes.

Overall, though this doesn't bother me as much as it would others as I typically play solo if possible.

Originally posted by Jakdstripper

i am not an old school mmo player. i did not play UO or EQ, my first mmo was WoW in '05. however i have played PnP D&D and i can understand your craving.

sadly it is much like looking for that same enjoyment you get from reading a good book from your tv. it's just not the same, one stimulates your immagination and the other captures your attention. it's just 2 different things.

there is a reason GW2 is F2P and that is it's not a world you live in, it's a theme park you visit when you have some time to kill. it was always going to be that and nothing more.

don't be too hard on the game, it was never ment for immersion and depth, that's what games like EvE are for.  

Agreed . Best post I've seen in a while . You've hit the nail on the head .

Originally posted by roo67

Originally posted by Jakdstripper

i am not an old school mmo player. i did not play UO or EQ, my first mmo was WoW in '05. however i have played PnP D&D and i can understand your craving.

sadly it is much like looking for that same enjoyment you get from reading a good book from your tv. it's just not the same, one stimulates your immagination and the other captures your attention. it's just 2 different things.

there is a reason GW2 is F2P and that is it's not a world you live in, it's a theme park you visit when you have some time to kill. it was always going to be that and nothing more.

don't be too hard on the game, it was never ment for immersion and depth, that's what games like EvE are for.  

Agreed . Best post I've seen in a while . You've hit the nail on the head .

I also agree 100%.  This type of MMO's is just not going to have immersion or depth and they are really aren't designed for that.   

I don't know why anyone would expect a PnP experience from a computer game.  None of them ever deliver that.  None.

Doesn't matter whether the MMO or non-MMO is a sandbox or a themepark or something else.  They don't give you the quality, depth, choice, etc of a good PnP game.  That's always been how it was.  Anyone expecting any MMO or computer game it change that is quite frankly being silly.

Why you'd give up PnP and go with just video games...sounds like madness to me.

I do both.

Anyhow, GW2 does have some problems with the grouping mechanics at the moment.  I'm quite happy with the community however.  It's no different than any other MMO that doesn't force you to potentially wait hours to form a group.

Originally posted by HorrorScope

Originally posted by Souldrainer
Gary Gygax once commented that he could never fully appreciate MMOs, because he said (paraphrasing) that the social interactions would be diminished when compared to actually being in a room with people. I agree with him, too. But also, pen and paper games allow you to literally do anything. You can throw sand in an enemy's eyes, forge a permanent alliance, start your own country, have children, change careers, lose a limb, become possessed, enter another plane of existence, go insane, etc etc etc. MMOs can never compete with that.

Silly. PnP could never have 10,000 people sit at a table. This isn't even apples and oranges. I could name things PnP could never do that a mmo could.

This could be looked at the same craving as "My first mmo", face it yesteryear is always better then the herenow, at least in our memories.

 

Originally posted by Souldrainer
I disagree. You could have 10,000 people gaming in pen and paper... with the right tools. Why would you want to, though? With that many people, it becomes a mindless blob with very little social interaction . So, if you're going to name something that can't be done in PNP, name it.

Maybe it's just me, but interaction and socialization only ever seems to be at it's most effective in small groups.

Originally posted by Enigmatus

Originally posted by Souldrainer
I disagree. You could have 10,000 people gaming in pen and paper... with the right tools. Why would you want to, though? With that many people, it becomes a mindless blob with very little social interaction . So, if you're going to name something that can't be done in PNP, name it.

Maybe it's just me, but interaction and socialization only ever seems to be at it's most effective in small groups.

No crap.  That's because you can't listen to 10 people talk and respond to them all.  Smaller groups mean you can give each person more attention.  Heck, movies with 10 main characters are always worse than ones with just a handful and some side characters here and there for flavor.  It's a similar principle.  There are limits to our ability to give things proper attention.

It's part of why it is crazy to expect a PnP experience from an MMO.  They have fundamentally different approaches.

Very interesting thread.  I am to from that age of pen and paper where myself and friends would spend hours/days creating or walking through adventures.

I feel its not so clear cut as you have stated though.  Modern living has made it exceptionally hard to get together physically and MMO's has plugged a gap that was left when we couldn't meet regularly for pen and paper games.

MMO's IMO are not there to force people to group but to facilitate an environment to group.  GW2 like a lot of MMO's does this.  If you have close friends and you get on vent etc. You can still use the gaming world to have that interaction.  A few friends will go into Role playing mode on vent but always tongue in cheek which is fun.

Interestingly some games like EVE have a great dynamic for grouping especially when mining.  Two MMO's that I will always feel fondly about are Vanguard and EVE.  There has been some weekends where all of us sat on vent and talked shite for hours whilst mining and crafting.  Good way to catch up.

On a personal note, MMO's have been the inspiration I have needed to put pen to paper again. 

I seriously here you though and I hope you have some fun with old school gaming :)  Once my life slowls down I will jump back in.

(Why did you delete the game though? Its free, didn't feel like jumping in once in a while?)

I don't know about the "no one chats." Just last night I had a very interesting conversation with a bunch of people. It started with falafels and gravited, like any conversation about falfel tends to, towards politics and how 'murica is the best. Sadly I missed the ending of the conversation because I started doing a particularly challenging jumping puzzle which required my undivided attention.

The community is there. People chat in almost every zone. But the game is barely a week old and a community takes time to build itself. Out of all recent themeparks, GW2 provides the best tools for community building. I mean the whole PvE aspects is centered around community cooperation. However, no modern game will bring back the sense of community we had in the older games.

The simple fact is that there are a whole lot more people playing these games now then there were during the late 90's early 00's, when UO and EQ were in their prime. Back then you had a few hundred thousand people playing MMOs, now WoW alone has 9 million accounts. Back then, it was a tightly knit group, now it's an unruly mob. Find a good guild and the sense of community will return. That's the only advice I can offer.

I too am really looking forward to ArcheAge, as I hope that it will facilitate player interaction on a much grander scale. Not a big fan of anime-ish artstyle but if the game is good, I can look past the art.

Originally posted by Syno23
Did you forget Dungeons, WvW, Dynamic Events, and what not. They all REQUIRE a group. So I dont know what you're talking about buddy.

Only dungeons require a group, the rest no one even cares if you re there.

Originally posted by Emeraq

Originally posted by Tawn47

Originally posted by teakinator

I will give GW2 great applause for a very polished gameplay experience but what is missing in mind (and RIFT had the same problem) is the community.  No one really chats and there is very little reason to group.  As an old paper and pencil fuddy-duddy from the 1970s what is missing from GW2 (and it is missing from RIFT, WOW, SWTOR, LOTRO and others) is the need to group for more than just raids or dungeons.  Grouping for regular grinding or epic quests creates lots of opportunities for meaningful and prolonged interaction, banter,  which lead to meaningful in-game friendships.With the elimination of a standalone healer class this downward slide away from grouping was the last straw for me. 

Its all because of teamspeak / mumble / ventrillo etc....    if you want to socialise in an MMO, you gotta join a guild with a chat system.  This is not a problem with the design of MMO's.

Yeah I have to agree, it's not a design flaw, developers can design a game that forces grouping all the time and you'll still not have the long lasting relationships because there will still be many players out there that form pick up groups to just get shit done, not to develop friendships.

So, in my view the flaw is the player(s) either not joining a guild, or not getting to know others in their guild... Maybe OP should have had those four buddies he's going to PnP with play this game as well, the dungeons are, afterall, 5 man. 

We always hates on the game, when plenty a time we should be hating on the players..

Thanks for the comments (even the rude ones) and yes I understand the guild thing.  I was the guild master of a large EQ guild that was so close we traveller around the world once a year for in-person get-togethers.  The difference is that in EQ, I was forced to group to any content and it was through forced grouping that I met a ton of people and from that group, a core of close friendships developed AND THEN we formed the guild. 

Yes I know that you need groups for dungeons but like another responder put on this thread you don't even remember their names.  WoW made it worse with the instant group thing so you didn't even have to say "hello". 

So if the guild thing is the solution to my problem I would have to join a guild of strangers and hope that there are peope in the guild that are similar bent as me.  That is the difference... make friends via grouping, find the players that worked well with you both through conversation, time available for playing and play style and THEN FORM THE GUILD. 

Anyway, like I said, I am not blasting GW2 but all post-EQ MMOs  and yes I believe it is a design flaw.

Originally posted by heartless

I don't know about the "no one chats." Just last night I had a very interesting conversation with a bunch of people. It started with falafels and gravited, like any conversation about falfel tends to, towards politics and how 'murica is the best. Sadly I missed the ending of the conversation because I started doing a particularly challenging jumping puzzle which required my undivided attention.

The community is there. People chat in almost every zone. But the game is barely a week old and a community takes time to build itself. Out of all recent themeparks, GW2 provides the best tools for community building. I mean the whole PvE aspects is centered around community cooperation. However, no modern game will bring back the sense of community we had in the older games.

The simple fact is that there are a whole lot more people playing these games now then there were during the late 90's early 00's, when UO and EQ were in their prime. Back then you had a few hundred thousand people playing MMOs, now WoW alone has 9 million accounts. Back then, it was a tightly knit group, now it's an unruly mob. Find a good guild and the sense of community will return. That's the only advice I can offer.

I too am really looking forward to ArcheAge, as I hope that it will facilitate player interaction on a much grander scale. Not a big fan of anime-ish artstyle but if the game is good, I can look past the art.

It's rare to find that in today's MMO's because of the way they're designed. They design them in a way that promotes this fly by attitude in players, there's no need of actual social skills, or even basic communication skills at the base level. IN SWG you got no where playing this way, nor EQ, UO so on and so forth. Removing this is what allowed for mass appeal. ANy game based on mass appeal is going to feel generic on the social front IMO.

(not directed at heartless's post) I've seen quite a few people suggest guild play for that old school feel, I have to disagree, for Guilds oriented toward those old games it's not at all the same. It feels like we're missing what made our cordination worth it, IE: The rest of the community. Our guild has basically given up at this point, we tried with TOR, we're not trying to move it to GW2 as in the end we forsee the same result.

Until there's a good sandbox that takes a full on community approach, we'll be sitting it out as an official guild.

Yeah, these games are not going that way. Though you have to give it to GW2 in that at least it goes to some lengths to bring people together (WvW and dynamic events, for example). Only the random cooperations don't last and are largely silent.

I'll agree that socializing in MMOS are becoming more and more a guild affair. Forced *is* bad, but it turns out players won't deal with each other at length when they don't have to. :)