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Originally posted by En1Gma

Drayven

We make it a point to place all games in our site and as many as possible that our forum can hold. Believe me, we did not remove this game because of "minor" differences or our "perspective" with the game. All of us MODs have our individual opinions on individual games but we have never ever removed a game from our forum simply because we did not like the game.

It is actually more of a serious series of PMs that we received from the Developers of Mourning. It has nothing to do whatsoever with personal opinion on how we do or don't like the game

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This is rather interesting. You're saying that PM's where the reason, but not of such a nature that personal oppinions where of an issue (or atleast did not rule the decision), right? So what ever could it be then? Did they treathen you all on your life or something?

You too seem sympathetic En1gma, but don't you see that when you're in your kind of buisniss you'll have to make a better case than making a pretty face and saying "you must belive us"..? I feel very strongly that I'm being the Devils lawyer here simply reading your post and responding in this fashion, but someone needs to.
Why don't we make a deal? I'll belive your claim of complete innocence, and then you belive me when I say that nothing good comes from pushing the boundaries of press ethics. Nothing good at all. I've explained why before. If you belive me then you'll take action and undo the damage, because anything less than physical threaths are as nothing compared to the damage done by the possability (or hint) of abusive media. Whether in fact you are innocent or guilty is irrelevant to the fact that such actions as this puts your credibility to the question. You need to show your policy through action, not words mate ;)

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Originally posted by FrozenPheonix
This board moves too fast for me too keep up, but I wanted to reply before I went to bed, so oh well.
My first thoughts were to applaud MMORPG.com's actions against the mourning staff. As I thought more about it though, my opinion changed slightly. It is true that they were gaining a large amount of free press of which they were undeserving, but that does not mean they should be removed completely. I could see perhaps removing their forums, maybe don't update them, but certainly not taking them off the list.
See, when you start removing people from your listings, for any reason other than death of the project, you lose a bit of professionalism. Now, I'm not going to start ranting about how mmorpg.com is evil and all that garbage, its just that as a site whose purpose was to provide a compehensive list of mmos to the fans, it seems like, it isn't their place to step in to protect the gamer from meanies. Now, don't get mad at me for this. This is simply my attempt to look at it from a completely detatched point of view.
Now, you throw in my biases and personal emotion and I'd be greatly cheering this step they have taken against people who just tried to push too far. But, I don't want to go there. Anyway, my rambling is done now, I am tired and I am off to bed. I apologise if my incoherent late-night ramblings have annoyed anyone. Good night.

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I for one think you're making a very good point.

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Originally posted by happydan20
This is worse then a political debate.  it's like no one cares about the issue its just about the side you're on and how much damage can you do to the other side.
About MMORPG.COM being something of a shrine to gaming, more about the spirit of them than anything else VS. A business site oriented around games.
It is a good question...  One that I've asked myself in some rather passionate debates about their relationship with IGE.  But Then I cooled off, because this site is not a shrine, it is a business site.  They provide me with a service I VERY much enjoy for free and all they ask is that I endure some ads... One of which I find very offensive.
The whole issue became clear when I looked at the site more objectively as a business.  That is not to say that the site's owner and all who are involved do not care about the games, but it is first and foremost a business venture.  I hope it is successful in that they generate income and profit as I feel they all deserve it.  This site is what turned me on to MMORPGS in the very first place (although sometimes I wonder if that is a blessing or a curse:).
They made a business decision not to support (at no cost to mourning) a game that slandered the site providing this free advertisement. They have also alluded discomfort in helping gamers find their way to this game based on how they treat their own pre customers.
Should they list games they feel are harmful?  I know if it was me when I HAD NO CLUE about mmorpgs, I would be glad for the warning.
The consensus on this seems to be that mourning players want this site to give them advertisement (for free) with traffic from linking, but remain totally behind the removal of the forums (that provide negative opinions.  All I can say is that this is typical of the mourning community and particularly typical of its leaders.
I do hope that more info comes to light about the EXACT reasons as to how this all came about...  But at the same time i respect them for not airing dirty laundry that took place in private communications.  MMORPG is showing a lot more professionalism and courtesy then the mourning team has shown... Anyone.
However if you (MMORPG) go back on this decision based on community desires, that brings forth the question of shrine versus business... If you heed the wants of a portion of the community I will renew my feelings on the IGE situation as you will have moved from business to an idealism, I hope that makes sense.

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I see many of the points you have made. But have you considered that MMORPG.com isn't just a buisniss, but a media buisniss..? When a media buisniss lose their ehics we get a media who gives the "news" who pay the most or who the person in power feels most serves him or his cause. That sort of news is called propaganda. Do you really want such "news" all because you belive that "it's their buisniss so they can do what they please"?
Do you see why MMORPG.com are in danger of becoming such an institusion by removing Mourning, regardless how you may feel about the game in question..?

It really surprise me to see people argueing that mmorpg should keep an obviously abusive and dare i say it bad game in their list. Likes its a crime not too. There are plenty of sub-standard games that have not made that list. It is a list created by them and in no way is complete. If you think it is then you havent looked up mmorpg. If you want a full list look elsewhere but highly doubt you will find one.

MMORPG obviously picks what they consider to be the most viable and noteworthy of this list. They do a really good job at it too as I cant find a better site for it myself. So if one of these gaming companies decides to throw a fit about a little bad press and this changes the opinions of mmorpg that this game is worthy of being put on this prestigous list..whos fault is that? I think its an immature and false argument to act like people are taking this list as all the mmorpgs out there. Where they draw the line is their business.

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Originally posted by Signe
I seem to have read this entire thread, Lord help me. I wanted to contribute by making a clear, concise, informative post but , somewhere, I seem to have lost that all important last brain cell. I've spent the entire night trying to find it, but to no avail. I think it's gone forever. I've become confused and seem to have suffered many , tiny, little strokes. I've had to equip a drool bucket and my husband has tied me to my chair to keep me from sliding to the floor, which is littered with the remants of my sanity. Where I once happily searched for that elusive perfect alogrithim, I now search for anything crunchy which may have fallen into my lap. In the time it has taken me to poke out this post with the stick taped to my forehead, I'm sure, at least four more pages have appeared.

Maybe I'll read more later, after my morning staring off into space exercise routine. I would sleep but my nurse seems to have forgotten to unstaple my eyelids.

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This Egomancer guy isn't the same guy that was trying to do Dawn was he?

Here is something to read over and laugh your ass off.

Link

Apparently MMORPG.com is not alone.

Again, I wish to extend thanks to the community for your continued support and raise a beer to Richard Kyanka "Kyanka"

 - Malkavian

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Originally posted by Rudnoc
(...) Maybe MMORPG should look into the Vault Networks (IGN) and adopt a lot of their forum rules. It gives a lot of room for free speech, but yet keeps a good rule on how members conduct themselves. I think no matter where you are, it is good way to keep a socially healthy environment. I see too much personal attacks on this forum as it is, well and even a few from myself. But if it allows it, it will happen.

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I just wanted to state that I belive MMORPG.com should continue their forum policy. I think it makes for a great principle, and we all do have the option to ignore flames (however painful that may seem). It does make for a lot of noise of course.

At the same time I belive the Mourning official forum have great forum rules when conserning their site. It suits a site dedicated to the wellbeing of one game to moderate their forum heavily.

It is too bad of course if they thought they could impose such moderation rules upon other sites. Rather shameful really..

Sry about this out of topic rant.

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Originally posted by Fadeus

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Originally posted by Herithius
The game has close to 40,000 registered users.
26 have said they came to the game from mmorpg.com.
That hardly says anything.

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NO, the Mourning official forum has 40,000 users maybe. There has to be a PLAYABLE product before there can be users on it. And what hardly says anything is all the registered users on the Mourning forum, I think there are under 100 that actually post there.

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This is an interesting part of the discussion.
Now, assuming there are 100 active people on the mourning forum and 28 of them has taken the time to announce they came from MMORPG.com.. That would mean that there are a huge number of people who have shown an interest in the Mourning product (as opposed to their forum), but who roam this forum instead of the Mourning forum. more than 28% by Fadeus estimate. That's about 11200 MMORPG.com subscribers. That would mean that MMORPG.com is removing media-access for over 10000 subscribers who have/had an interest in mourning while harming the Mourning product in the process, doesen't it..?
Now, Admin said you removed Mourning from your lists so as not to harm them, but by your rough estimate Fadeus MMORPG.com have the potential to remove one forth of Mournings current customer base. This makes for some rather interesting implications me thinks.. So tell me Fadeus, do you still think the poll in question is relevant for our discussion?

I would be interested in hearing how MMORPG.com claim they are serving these 10000-15000 subscribers, when they remove these people's media access to this game..? Care to comment, Admin? Do you really belive saying "we had good reasons" is enough? Do you belive all these people care about the scuabble between MMORPG.com moderators and Mourning forum moderators, however bad? My bet is they care about the final Moruning product and about getting fast and easy news from MMORPG.com about it. I know I do. Do you still think removing Mourning was the least harmful way (for the Mourning product) of dealing with this situation seing as how Fadeus has pointed out what enourmus power your site have over this product.

Lastly, doesen't it ring a bell Fadeus, that maybe MMORPG.com are abusing their position a bit in regard to Mourning when that poll on their site clearly shows what large a portion of Mournings customer base is really MMORPG.com subscribers?

EDIT: Changed a you and yours to MMORPG.com and their. A bit of bad wording snuck into this post..

Eh, forget it. To summarize: (Trust me it was a lot longer. :) )

Forums for community, not devs and shouldn't be based on MMORPGs thoughts on them but their dedication to the players regardless. Official forums for devs, community forums for players. This once friendly, helpful site is slowly sliding into a pool of mediocrity. So while we're on the judgement train lets turn the mirror back on us.

I've been prowling this site for a few years and have seen goods and bads.

Malkavian, though I think you're THE best and most deserving staff member on this site I find your post a bit harsh and its really knocked you, and the 'professionalism' (which was a big topic with Mourning's devs) of MMORPG.com down a notch in my book. While you're only one person, apparently that now affects everyone associated with you and your employer (assuming you're not a volunteer, like those evil Mods at Mourning's boards). Still love you though.

Give the devs a break, 90% of the flame wars on this site are started between someone responding to someone else with a sarcastic or hateful response. Combine 8000 of those and toss em at a dev and you've got a disgruntled and unprofessional representative that may lose his cool or do something not so nice. (As Malkavian has demonstrated.) While their sometimes IDIOTIC and downright OFFENSIVE responses are by no means justified, they happen, with everyone, including the ones here. So why, I ask, is it such a big difference between a game developer's sarcastic or short fused response, and a community site staff member's?

Didn't read the whole post, don't care to. I'm sure there will be a new QQ thread up soon enough.

Edit: And yeah, I was one of the folks to support Mourning. If that somehow is relevant to this. Though, I don't really see how. I can agree they're a screwed up bunch but this isn't so much about that...right?

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Originally posted by draxshared

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Originally posted by En1Gma

Drayven

We make it a point to place all games in our site and as many as possible that our forum can hold. Believe me, we did not remove this game because of "minor" differences or our "perspective" with the game. All of us MODs have our individual opinions on individual games but we have never ever removed a game from our forum simply because we did not like the game.

It is actually more of a serious series of PMs that we received from the Developers of Mourning. It has nothing to do whatsoever with personal opinion on how we do or don't like the game

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This is rather interesting. You're saying that PM's where the reason, but not of such a nature that personal oppinions where of an issue (or atleast did not rule the decision), right? So what ever could it be then? Did they treathen you all on your life or something?

You too seem sympathetic En1gma, but don't you see that when you're in your kind of buisniss you'll have to make a better case than making a pretty face and saying "you must belive us"..? I feel very strongly that I'm being the Devils lawyer here simply reading your post and responding in this fashion, but someone needs to.
Why don't we make a deal? I'll belive your claim of complete innocence, and then you belive me when I say that nothing good comes from pushing the boundaries of press ethics. Nothing good at all. I've explained why before. If you belive me then you'll take action and undo the damage, because anything less than physical threaths are as nothing compared to the damage done by the possability (or hint) of abusive media. Whether in fact you are innocent or guilty is irrelevant to the fact that such actions as this puts your credibility to the question. You need to show your policy through action, not words mate ;)

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I understand your points, but we really are not a liberty to discuss "behind the scenes" of what went on. If you do not beleive me when I say "we let go of mourning due to PMs from their development team" then that is fine. I'll still respect you and y our opinions. However, as I said in the past I am not liberty or privy to explain what had happened.

But rest assured, it wasn't because we "didn't like the game"

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Originally posted by Fadeus
exactly, so why has most the vocal members of the Mourning forum come here griping over the fact that it was removed from here?

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Did they? Where? I've been following this thread from the beginning but can remember below half a dozen ppl strongly indicating they are Mourning fans, only.. Have I missed something?

I really don't see the problem. Mmorpg.com took down mourning for reasons they feel are right. Do they really need to give us a reason why? No they don't, this is there site and it is put here to entertain us that come to it and enjoy it. As for myself I told ROT (yes way back when mourning use to be called ROT the game was bad and needed a lot of work. They never listened. In fact I was removed from beta for no reason at all other than I told them what needed to be fixed. I for one fully support Mmorpg.com in this and hope they know there are many of us that agree with exactly what you did and need no explanations.

If you really want to get technical about it, why should Mourning have to explain their reasons for removing you from beta? Apparently they felt it was the right decision, provided you with an invite at their expense and, I'm guessing, no extra cost to you. So, why all the anger directed at them? There must be something else to it?

Ah right, we're consumers who feel we deserve something for our time. Sure, MMORPG.com can nuke a forum without giving us a reason other than they felt it was right til they're blue in the face. Hopefully they won't expect us to stick around.

Suppose this was oh...MU Online simply because I have no idea about it and can't use info based off of it to support the point. If you and I were to play it and suddenly MMORPG.com nuked it simply because the development team made a few staff members cry, or even worse, didn't tell us at all, I'm sure we'd, or at least I, would be up in arms wondering what the bajeebus just happened.

Solution, ban the freakin mods. They don't need to be here. Give me my forum back, give me news on the game.

To remove a splinter you don't cut off the foot.

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Originally posted by Malkavian
Here is something to read over and laugh your ass off.
Link
Apparently MMORPG.com is not alone.
Again, I wish to extend thanks to the community for your continued support and raise a beer to Richard Kyanka "Kyanka"
- Malkavian

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lmao. Guess what guys- go to mourning boards and try to type in that link- the site is banned from being shown on the mourning board! It shows up as ***********. So much for free speech.

 i had the idea to try to picture it happening to a game i like which i found through this site:

I decided i would start harrasing that game's leaders as to what transpired that caused them to have gotten a bad rep to be wary of a product i havent bought yet or really dealing w/those accused as being jerks, unless both stories matched up but w/different opinions i wouldn't trust anyone but myself and would continue to be registered at both places, HOWEVER i would be wary of the product and/or its makers seeing as MMORPG.com has nothing to gain BUSINESS WISE by banning it(the game's press) and if you think they(mmorpg.com) wouldn't stuff their own personal feelings to make a buck you probably need to seek medical attention.

Both the words: Scam and SomethingAwful.com have been blocked from the site! Nice.....................