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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » Is the Trinity system really Gone?

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67 posts found
  EllieAnne

Novice Member

Joined: 11/07/10
Posts: 21

8/30/12 11:37:04 AM#41
Originally posted by Wickedjelly
Originally posted by Atlan99

I think rumors of the trinity's demise have been greatly exaggerated.

 Yeah

It isn't as prevalent as in other games but it is still present in this game. Hell, I had to switch to water for healing purposes in AC last night for the group I was in.

And this was exactly my point.  I think it's great that everyone can be multipurpose but I would still like to have the option of a build of a Guardian that is "Beat on me while my party crushes you." or a Water Elementist that stands back and spams heals during dungeons or bosses.

  Volkon

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3813

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

8/30/12 11:47:00 AM#42
Originally posted by stratasaurus

Your post makes no sense, bascially you are saying that even if your build is built around one thing as long as you have another skill, even if not very useful, you are not part of the trinity setup.  For example if I am an ele in water I tend to have more healing support stuff but since I also have a damage ability I'm not "tied in" to the healer roll.  Well if you are a protection paladin in Wow you have heals but that hardly means you are not a tank but instead a healer.  All healers in wow have skills that cause damage that doesn't mean they are not healers.

Elementalists, even when specced into water, have only 30 of 70 trait points there, the rest are... well, somewhere else. While in water attunement you have skills that snare enemies, damage them and support allies. You also have three other attunements at your disposal a fingertip away. You're not specced as a healer, period, although you can be more invested in support than the others.

It's the good elementalists that will stand out... the ones dancing through their attunements as the situation demands. Flip from fire for the burn to water to support allies to earth to help control the foes (although, as mentioned, each attribute has damage, control and support...).

Oderint, dum metuant.

  xDayx

Novice Member

Joined: 9/08/11
Posts: 713

8/30/12 11:50:08 AM#43

I never personally had a problem with 'a trinity'.

That being said I think GW2 is in the top 3 themeparks out there.

  Purgatus

Novice Member

Joined: 4/22/12
Posts: 347

8/30/12 11:52:32 AM#44
A trinity is there, just not the Holy Trinity.
  Drakynn

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/08
Posts: 2051

8/30/12 11:55:16 AM#45

Trinity will never really be gone because it's basic combat strategey youh ave offence,defence and support/supply.These are the basics of any combat situation.Now the traditional Holy Trinity system is a simplified and rigid applicaiton fo these principles and served it's purpose for the time.

The challenge today is giving a player the option to do all 2 or 3 of these roles effectively and in a way that gels with multiplayer gameplay and is fun.Most modern military units specialize in one role but can do a second effectively and the 3rd if they have to.

  botrytis

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2527

8/30/12 11:56:24 AM#46
Nope - there have been groups doing dungeons that were all Rangers - warriors, etc. Where is your trinity?

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  Wolvards

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/27/12
Posts: 674

8/30/12 12:10:33 PM#47
Originally posted by Atlan99
Whenever I come across something even remotely challenging in the game. I can cast a spell that summons a monster that tanks for me. I can heal this monster when needed. I also damage the mobs while my pet tanks them.

Really? Wow I want to know your class, build and level and what pet.

I'm level 32 necro, pet built, and I can't do this. I have 6 pets out at once, and a veteran mob kills over half of them, if not all.

I have:

 Life transfer pet

Bone minions (2)

Spider thingy that immobilizes

Shadow Fiend

Lvl 30 elite big bad ass that charges.

Even my level 30 can only survive upwards of 6 hits from a larger mob. They are weak. So even if i add the 50% health trait, that only adds at most of 3-4 hits. 10 hits from a big mob? That's not tanking.

Also I can permanetly stack regeneration with my staff on all my pets, becuase when I dodge roll, it also grants a mark of blood, so if i dodge every 5 seconds, and cast #2 every 6 seconds, i get over 12 seconds of regen every 6 seconds.

That's the most healing I can do.

Please, enlighten me.

The "Youtube Pro": Someone who watches video's on said subject, and obviously has a full understanding of what is being said about such subject.

  Drachasor

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 2693

8/30/12 12:32:31 PM#48
Originally posted by Drakynn

Trinity will never really be gone because it's basic combat strategey youh ave offence,defence and support/supply.These are the basics of any combat situation.Now the traditional Holy Trinity system is a simplified and rigid applicaiton fo these principles and served it's purpose for the time.

The challenge today is giving a player the option to do all 2 or 3 of these roles effectively and in a way that gels with multiplayer gameplay and is fun.Most modern military units specialize in one role but can do a second effectively and the 3rd if they have to.


The OP is talking about the Holy Trinity, however, and that certainly IS gone.

 

Stating that the trinity is just people having defense, offense, and support/supply is moving goalposts, because that's not what the Trinity has ever been.  Might as well say that Starcraft has the Trinity in it or any other game that has combat.  "Trinity" then is a worthless term, since you're just saying rudimentary combat.

That said, the Trinity grouping of roles most certainly does NOT apply to the modern military.  You don't have HT-style "tanking units" or people whose job it is to sit there and get shot at.  Nor do you have doctors tossing bandages at the people getting hit.  Nor do you have glass canons.  In terms of a combat setting, there's not that much on-field healing that results in someone going back into the fight.  Temporary measures and getting moved off the front is how any remotely serious injury is handled ASAP.  I could go on, but the point is that were looking at any real world combat scenerio in an era, the Trinity as specialized roles just falls apart quite rapidly.

 

Now, in GW2 are you still going to have people taking damage?  Sure, there's combat.  Are you going to have people dealing damage?  Sure, there's combat.  Are you going to have buffs/debuffs/healing/etc?  Sure, again, there's combat (and it is more than rudimentary).  Just because these are elements of combat doesn't mean that people can or will specialize in any one of them.  Given the lack of appropriate aggro mechanics, particularly in large groups, it is no surprise that trying to adhere to HT mechanics will be exceedingly difficult and likely involve taking a lot of unncessary damage.

  Drachasor

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 2693

8/30/12 12:42:51 PM#49
Originally posted by EllieAnne
Originally posted by Wickedjelly
Originally posted by Atlan99

I think rumors of the trinity's demise have been greatly exaggerated.

 Yeah

It isn't as prevalent as in other games but it is still present in this game. Hell, I had to switch to water for healing purposes in AC last night for the group I was in.

And this was exactly my point.  I think it's great that everyone can be multipurpose but I would still like to have the option of a build of a Guardian that is "Beat on me while my party crushes you." or a Water Elementist that stands back and spams heals during dungeons or bosses.

I wouldn't.  Because that requires all enemies be complete morons.  The Holy Trinity completely breaks my immersion in the game because of this.  Even average players can figure out you kill the healer first in PvP games with trinity mechanics, so even supremely intelligent bad guys have to be pretty stupid not to figure that out.

It also robs depth and interest from the combat itself.  A huge problem for Holy Trinity games is that the basic combat is boring as hell.  It's managed to turn group gameplay into something inherently tedious and mindnumbing as opposed to something full of interesting interactions.  Everyone just does their one, highly artificial, job all the time and that's it.  Frankly, if that's what you want, there are plenty of games that deliver.  We certainly don't need another snorefest MMO combat system that must rely on gimmicks in each fight to be remotely interesting.

I'd rather have people who, surprise, surprise, did NOT want to get hit, because getting hit is bad.  People who can deal decent damage, buff decently, perform spot heals, and provide for a lot of depth and ways to interact together.  Having to use multiple abilities of different types makes the combat interesting and it makes group combat even more interesting than solo, and that's before you add in GW2's combo system.

I'm all for a more reasonable take on combat mechanics that delivers a system that's actually interesting and deep at its base.

  Fadedbomb

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/19/06
Posts: 2149

8/30/12 12:53:44 PM#50
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by Castillle
Originally posted by Volkon

Yes, the trinity is gone in GW2, whether people are willing to accept that fact or not. Players are no longer tied to roles. Your skills are where the damage, control and support aspects reside, and your weapons have a blend of all three. You need to instead focus on using the right skills at the right time for the effect you need at that time.

 

It's really that simple.

Thief + Pistol Offhand + Press 5 every 4 seconds = trolololol u cant touch me

Grats?

 

I run a mesmer. I can make you touch yourself.

Can I watch?

The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

  fundayz

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/14/10
Posts: 471

8/30/12 12:54:27 PM#51
Originally posted by EllieAnne
Originally posted by Wickedjelly
Originally posted by Atlan99

I think rumors of the trinity's demise have been greatly exaggerated.

 Yeah

It isn't as prevalent as in other games but it is still present in this game. Hell, I had to switch to water for healing purposes in AC last night for the group I was in.

And this was exactly my point.  I think it's great that everyone can be multipurpose but I would still like to have the option of a build of a Guardian that is "Beat on me while my party crushes you." or a Water Elementist that stands back and spams heals during dungeons or bosses.

The thing is that is not the visio ArenaNet has for the game. They have been adamant about not having dedicated roles from the very beginning. 

There are lots of other games out there that provide that experience.

  rt40

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/05
Posts: 35

lol

8/30/12 1:01:43 PM#52
Originally posted by Castillle
Originally posted by Volkon

Yes, the trinity is gone in GW2, whether people are willing to accept that fact or not. Players are no longer tied to roles. Your skills are where the damage, control and support aspects reside, and your weapons have a blend of all three. You need to instead focus on using the right skills at the right time for the effect you need at that time.

 

It's really that simple.

Thief + Pistol Offhand + Press 5 every 4 seconds = trolololol u cant touch me

this is actually true. if the mob is blindable you cant die. and if u put point in initiative regen stuff u can spam it.. (Doesnt work on bosses tho)

  gessekai332

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/31/07
Posts: 865

8/30/12 1:03:15 PM#53
people are still trying to run trinity right now because thats the only thing they know how to do and without it they will fail repeatedly. lolz at the nubs.

Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)

  Wickedjelly

Novice Member

Joined: 4/19/09
Posts: 5064

The Dude abides

8/30/12 1:06:39 PM#54
Originally posted by gessekai332
people are still trying to run trinity right now because thats the only thing they know how to do and without it they will fail repeatedly. lolz at the nubs.

 Didn't you make a post not long ago pretty offbase on DEs and questing in this game and had to be informed by other posters here? Got a lot of balls calling other nubs. They'll learn from others or experience how this game play out.

1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  Drakynn

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/08
Posts: 2051

8/30/12 1:21:07 PM#55
Originally posted by Drachasor
Originally posted by Drakynn

Trinity will never really be gone because it's basic combat strategey youh ave offence,defence and support/supply.These are the basics of any combat situation.Now the traditional Holy Trinity sy stem is a simplified and rigid applicaiton fo these principles and served it's purpose for the time.

The challenge today is giving a player the option to do all 2 or 3 of these roles effectively and in a way that gels with multiplayer gameplay and is fun.Most modern military units specialize in one role but can do a second effectively and the 3rd if they have to.


The OP is talking about the Holy Trinity, however, and that certainly IS gone.

 

Stating that the trinity is just people having defense, offense, and support/supply is moving goalposts, because that's not what the Trinity has ever been.  Might as well say that Starcraft has the Trinity in it or any other game that has combat.  "Trinity" then is a worthless term, since you're just saying rudimentary combat.

That said, the Trinity grouping of roles most certainly does NOT apply to the modern military.  You don't have HT-style "tanking units" or people whose job it is to sit there and get shot at.  Nor do you have doctors tossing bandages at the people getting hit.  Nor do you have glass canons.  In terms of a combat setting, there's not that much on-field healing that results in someone going back into the fight.  Temporary measures and getting moved off the front is how any remotely serious injury is handled ASAP.  I could go on, but the point is that were looking at any real world combat scenerio in an era, the Trinity as specialized roles just falls apart quite rapidly.

 

Now, in GW2 are you still going to have people taking damage?  Sure, there's combat.  Are you going to have people dealing damage?  Sure, there's combat.  Are you going to have buffs/debuffs/healing/etc?  Sure, again, there's combat (and it is more than rudimentary).  Just because these are elements of combat doesn't mean that people can or will specialize in any one of them.  Given the lack of appropriate aggro mechanics, particularly in large groups, it is no surprise that trying to adhere to HT mechanics will be exceedingly difficult and likely involve taking a lot of unncessary damage.

Youa re welcome to your opinion but I tihnk you don't understand the term "Holy Trinity system is a simplified and rigid applicaiton of these principles" is it a realistic applicaiton of these pricniples?Not at all is it a serviceable applicaiton fo these principles to a game mechanic?Yes,games don't have to be strict to reality and whislt the Holy Trinity stretches believability  in a lot of ways it was a serviceable mechanic for it's time.

  Teh_Axi

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/08
Posts: 405

8/30/12 1:27:35 PM#56

Dealing damage, mitigating damage and healing lost health are core parts of any RPG, they are not the "trinity".

The trinity refers to class design, ie each one is designed to fulfill certain aspects and requires other classes to fill what they lack, in GW2 no class really lacks anything but cannot do everything at once. GW2 classes are flexable enough that you can play both with an without a trinity style setup.

You could even try to play GW2 the way you described but its always going to be harder than having a decent source of healing.

  Drachasor

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 2693

8/30/12 1:27:40 PM#57
Originally posted by Drakynn
Originally posted by Drachasor
Originally posted by Drakynn

Trinity will never really be gone because it's basic combat strategey youh ave offence,defence and support/supply.These are the basics of any combat situation.Now the traditional Holy Trinity sy stem is a simplified and rigid applicaiton fo these principles and served it's purpose for the time.

The challenge today is giving a player the option to do all 2 or 3 of these roles effectively and in a way that gels with multiplayer gameplay and is fun.Most modern military units specialize in one role but can do a second effectively and the 3rd if they have to.


The OP is talking about the Holy Trinity, however, and that certainly IS gone.

 

Stating that the trinity is just people having defense, offense, and support/supply is moving goalposts, because that's not what the Trinity has ever been.  Might as well say that Starcraft has the Trinity in it or any other game that has combat.  "Trinity" then is a worthless term, since you're just saying rudimentary combat.

That said, the Trinity grouping of roles most certainly does NOT apply to the modern military.  You don't have HT-style "tanking units" or people whose job it is to sit there and get shot at.  Nor do you have doctors tossing bandages at the people getting hit.  Nor do you have glass canons.  In terms of a combat setting, there's not that much on-field healing that results in someone going back into the fight.  Temporary measures and getting moved off the front is how any remotely serious injury is handled ASAP.  I could go on, but the point is that were looking at any real world combat scenerio in an era, the Trinity as specialized roles just falls apart quite rapidly.

 

Now, in GW2 are you still going to have people taking damage?  Sure, there's combat.  Are you going to have people dealing damage?  Sure, there's combat.  Are you going to have buffs/debuffs/healing/etc?  Sure, again, there's combat (and it is more than rudimentary).  Just because these are elements of combat doesn't mean that people can or will specialize in any one of them.  Given the lack of appropriate aggro mechanics, particularly in large groups, it is no surprise that trying to adhere to HT mechanics will be exceedingly difficult and likely involve taking a lot of unncessary damage.

Youa re welcome to your opinion but I tihnk you don't understand the term "Holy Trinity system is a simplified and rigid applicaiton of these principles" is it a realistic applicaiton of these pricniples?Not at all is it a serviceable applicaiton fo these principles to a game mechanic?Yes,games don't have to be strict to reality and whislt the Holy Trinity stretches believability  in a lot of ways it was a serviceable mechanic for it's time.

Except you acted like modern militaries have the same specializations that the Holy Trinity does, when they don't.  They roles that exist in modern or even ancient militaries are vastly different from the Trinity.  In fact, one of the big problems with the Holy Trinity is that it puts blinders on people, making them think that combat is largely about raw defense, raw offense, and support.  In reality, it is a lot more complex and there are many other major elements.  GW2 has a number of those elements in the gameplay.

  Drachasor

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 2693

8/30/12 1:29:12 PM#58
Originally posted by Teh_Axi

Dealing damage, mitigating damage and healing lost health are core parts of any RPG, they are not the "trinity".

Any RPG?  Try pretty much any computer combat system.  Doesn't matter whether it is an RPG, FPS, RTS, TBS, or what-have-you.

  Drakynn

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/08
Posts: 2051

8/30/12 1:35:10 PM#59
Originally posted by Drachasor
Originally posted by Drakynn
Originally posted by Drachasor
Originally posted by Drakynn

Trinity will never really be gone because it's basic combat strategey youh ave offence,defence and support/supply.These are the basics of any combat situation.Now the traditional Holy Trinity sy stem is a simplified and rigid applicaiton fo these principles and served it's purpose for the time.

The challenge today is giving a player the option to do all 2 or 3 of these roles effectively and in a way that gels with multiplayer gameplay and is fun.Most modern military units specialize in one role but can do a second effectively and the 3rd if they have to.


The OP is talking about the Holy Trinity, however, and that certainly IS gone.

 

Stating that the trinity is just people having defense, offense, and support/supply is moving goalposts, because that's not what the Trinity has ever been.  Might as well say that Starcraft has the Trinity in it or any other game that has combat.  "Trinity" then is a worthless term, since you're just saying rudimentary combat.

That said, the Trinity grouping of roles most certainly does NOT apply to the modern military.  You don't have HT-style "tanking units" or people whose job it is to sit there and get shot at.  Nor do you have doctors tossing bandages at the people getting hit.  Nor do you have glass canons.  In terms of a combat setting, there's not that much on-field healing that results in someone going back into the fight.  Temporary measures and getting moved off the front is how any remotely serious injury is handled ASAP.  I could go on, but the point is that were looking at any real world combat scenerio in an era, the Trinity as specialized roles just falls apart quite rapidly.

 

Now, in GW2 are you still going to have people taking damage?  Sure, there's combat.  Are you going to have people dealing damage?  Sure, there's combat.  Are you going to have buffs/debuffs/healing/etc?  Sure, again, there's combat (and it is more than rudimentary).  Just because these are elements of combat doesn't mean that people can or will specialize in any one of them.  Given the lack of appropriate aggro mechanics, particularly in large groups, it is no surprise that trying to adhere to HT mechanics will be exceedingly difficult and likely involve taking a lot of unncessary damage.

Youa re welcome to your opinion but I tihnk you don't understand the term "Holy Trinity system is a simplified and rigid applicaiton of these principles" is it a realistic applicaiton of these pricniples?Not at all is it a serviceable applicaiton fo these principles to a game mechanic?Yes,games don't have to be strict to reality and whislt the Holy Trinity stretches believability  in a lot of ways it was a serviceable mechanic for it's time.

Except you acted like modern militaries have the same specializations that the Holy Trinity does, when they don't.  They roles that exist in modern or even ancient militaries are vastly different from the Trinity.  In fact, one of the big problems with the Holy Trinity is that it puts blinders on people, making them think that combat is largely about raw defense, raw offense, and support.  In reality, it is a lot more complex and there are many other major elements.  GW2 has a number of those elements in the gameplay.

No that's your personal opinion of what I said...what I see I said was modern units have elements of all 3 basic roles but certain units do specialize in one or even two more than the other(s) and yes it is more complex coz it's real life.Once again you ignore "simplified and rigid applicaiton of these principles" because yous eme to want to find arguement.

  User Deleted
8/30/12 1:38:14 PM#60
The holy trinity of mmos is still alive, well and going strong. It will continue to do so many years to come. ArenaNet chose not to  follow it and that is all fine, dandy and more power to them. 
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