Originally posted by yabooer

I'm more surprised at the fact that there are still people wanting the game to die off, for what reason? If it makes players happy which it does for some, why do you still hate on a game?

Because some people dont want SV to be an example of that you can release a broken and terribly designed product, cheat and lie to your customer and still succeed. It may set bad example for other indie companies.

Originally posted by Uhwop

It's interesting that MO is still up and running under a subscription model, while big budget developers like Bioware convert their first attempt into a free to play MMO. 

Do you really want an answer to that or was it a rhetorical question? Bioware has more than 5 salaries to pay as well as try to get back the $200 million dollars they invested into the game. SV didnt invest nearly as much so they can take it easy and live on the little they get from current subs to pay server cost and few salaries. And I won't even go into the topic of indie vs having a publisher (EA), get real. 

Originally posted by RainBringer

O[mod edit]

His point is still valid regardless of the spewing hate - some people DO enjoy the game.  No matter how much bile drips down the screen YOU cannot change that there are many players who have a hoot of a time playing MO.  It's fact unlike a lot of your conjecture. So you're entitled to your position and we all know the history behind MO but they are still there patching now it seems on a daily basis and REGARDLESS of the venom - they continue forward.

So give the hate a rest. It makes little difference. I'm sure you do put off people from trying the game - but there are still plenty of ppl that will give it a try and make up their own minds.[mod edit]

Originally posted by yabooer

I'm more surprised at the fact that there are still people wanting the game to die off, for what reason? If it makes players happy which it does for some, why do you still hate on a game?

 

You post things to try and influence others to not look into a game, but why? Do you really believe that your opinion is all mighty and deserves to be heard, do you really feel attacking the low pop will give you gratification? I mean there are so many games failing right now but you have to choose MO?

 

You research into a game to see that is failing and waste your time in doing so, what is wrong with children now a days? Do you get a medal for following a game and flaming it for this long? Do you receive a unique avatar for if it does fail you were right? What are you getting out of this exactly, other then  your time wasted and a possible "I was right"?

This shoudl be repeated around here more often.

I stoped bothering thinking about the reasons why they would do it. It just falls in the bracket  "sad peope are sad".

Originally posted by Uhwop

It's almost like the game is developed by a small indipendant studio, go figure.

People should quit arguing, repeated negative posting on the forums can be reported.  There's nothing to be gained from the same individuals repeatedly posting the same thing over and over.  This is the exact same thing that gets posted after every single magor and minor patch that SV puts out; there's really no reason to keep making them. 

It's an obscene rational, in which some individuals think that they can one day point back and say "I told you so". 

It's interesting that MO is still up and running under a subscription model, while big budget developers like Bioware convert their first attempt into a free to play MMO. 

People are constantly lamenting how every MMO comes out looking just like the one that came out prior to it, and then you get a company like SV, with very few hands, and a fraction of the budget of mainstream studios, and a bunch of people want to jump on their every mistake as if they have the experience in building a game and should know better.

MO was never intended to be a mainstream MMO, it was never inteded to draw in masses of people; yet people behaive as if it's a regular studio with all the resources needed to make mainstram game that's supposed to appeal to a majority of gamers.

I come here to see what's going on with MO, instead most of what I find is thread after thread from the same few people posting the exact same thing over and over.  It's old, tiresome, and rather pathetic when you see it's the same people that have been doing it sinse MO began two years ago.  What kind of a person rages over a stupid video game for that length of time? 

+1

This one's even better.

Renaming my bracket to "pathetic people are pathetic."

Originally posted by StarI

Originally posted by Uhwop

It's almost like the game is developed by a small indipendant studio, go figure.

People should quit arguing, repeated negative posting on the forums can be reported.  There's nothing to be gained from the same individuals repeatedly posting the same thing over and over.  This is the exact same thing that gets posted after every single magor and minor patch that SV puts out; there's really no reason to keep making them. 

It's an obscene rational, in which some individuals think that they can one day point back and say "I told you so". 

It's interesting that MO is still up and running under a subscription model, while big budget developers like Bioware convert their first attempt into a free to play MMO. 

People are constantly lamenting how every MMO comes out looking just like the one that came out prior to it, and then you get a company like SV, with very few hands, and a fraction of the budget of mainstream studios, and a bunch of people want to jump on their every mistake as if they have the experience in building a game and should know better.

MO was never intended to be a mainstream MMO, it was never inteded to draw in masses of people; yet people behaive as if it's a regular studio with all the resources needed to make mainstram game that's supposed to appeal to a majority of gamers.

I come here to see what's going on with MO, instead most of what I find is thread after thread from the same few people posting the exact same thing over and over.  It's old, tiresome, and rather pathetic when you see it's the same people that have been doing it sinse MO began two years ago.  What kind of a person rages over a stupid video game for that length of time? 

+1

This one's even better.

Renaming my bracket to "pathetic people are pathetic."

It's not funny I'm fucking sick of it too - they hold SV to a standard that few if any of the bigger houses could compete with either.  This site is supposed to be for the SUPPORT OF MMO's NOT TRYING TO KILL THEM.  I mean FFS - it's like a fucking bloodsport on this board.

Eventually SV/MO will close down (I hope in many, many, many years) there will be an idiot on this board at that time saying "I told you so".  Your collective predictions of DOOM since Day 1 of launch TWO frickin YEARS ago - have not come true.

can we just suck up some of the bile for sake of one of the few remianing interesting titles out there that isn't cookie cutter shit.

Remeber D3?  How long did that last until the economy was completely fucked?  A couple of weeks?

You all seen what's just happened to GW2?

But oooh noes for some reason SV is a streaming pile. Well go fookin play GW2 or D3 and stop pissing here.

Originally posted by FastSloth
lol

Talking about contributing to the discussion... Thx for this insightful input.

Originally posted by CroniteLore

Originally posted by StarI

Originally posted by Uhwop

It's almost like the game is developed by a small indipendant studio, go figure.

People should quit arguing, repeated negative posting on the forums can be reported.  There's nothing to be gained from the same individuals repeatedly posting the same thing over and over.  This is the exact same thing that gets posted after every single magor and minor patch that SV puts out; there's really no reason to keep making them. 

It's an obscene rational, in which some individuals think that they can one day point back and say "I told you so". 

It's interesting that MO is still up and running under a subscription model, while big budget developers like Bioware convert their first attempt into a free to play MMO. 

People are constantly lamenting how every MMO comes out looking just like the one that came out prior to it, and then you get a company like SV, with very few hands, and a fraction of the budget of mainstream studios, and a bunch of people want to jump on their every mistake as if they have the experience in building a game and should know better.

MO was never intended to be a mainstream MMO, it was never inteded to draw in masses of people; yet people behaive as if it's a regular studio with all the resources needed to make mainstram game that's supposed to appeal to a majority of gamers.

I come here to see what's going on with MO, instead most of what I find is thread after thread from the same few people posting the exact same thing over and over.  It's old, tiresome, and rather pathetic when you see it's the same people that have been doing it sinse MO began two years ago.  What kind of a person rages over a stupid video game for that length of time? 

+1

This one's even better.

Renaming my bracket to "pathetic people are pathetic."

It's not funny I'm fucking sick of it too - they hold SV to a standard that few if any of the bigger houses could compete with either.  This site is supposed to be for the SUPPORT OF MMO's NOT TRYING TO KILL THEM.  I mean FFS - it's like a fucking bloodsport on this board.

Eventually SV/MO will close down (I hope in many, many, many years) there will be an idiot on this board at that time saying "I told you so".  Your collective predictions of DOOM since Day 1 of launch TWO frickin YEARS ago - have not come true.

can we just suck up some of the bile for sake of one of the few remianing interesting titles out there that isn't cookie cutter shit.

Remeber D3?  How long did that last until the economy was completely fucked?  A couple of weeks?

You all seen what's just happened to GW2?

But oooh noes for some reason SV is a streaming pile. Well go fookin play GW2 or D3 and stop pissing here.

 

 

MO would be gone by now if it wasnt for Henrik's Dad pumping money into the company to keep it running. Any real independent studio wouldn't last that long without handouts.

SV has had the time and money to make a decent game but clearly haven't been able to do so (from the subs). The vision wasn't good, it wasnt profitable. The implementation was worse, and is still crippled.

SV has had all the chances in the world to reel people in but have failed to do so. Now the game is starting to age and new titles are being released every few months.

It's time is over despite having never begun.

Originally posted by StarI

 

This shoudl be repeated around here more often.

I stoped bothering thinking about the reasons why they would do it. It just falls in the bracket  "sad peope are sad".

More like "screwed customers who dont want others to get screwed". 

Originally posted by Toferio

Originally posted by StarI

 

This shoudl be repeated around here more often.

I stoped bothering thinking about the reasons why they would do it. It just falls in the bracket  "sad peope are sad".

More like "screwed customers who dont want others to get screwed". 

That COULD have been a case IF:

There was never a  free trial.

There were no youtube vids or other media.

No official forum, where despite some moderation you can still find LOADS of info lieing around describing all the bugs, population and other key factors for ones enjoyment.

Blogs.

Random chater on hundreds of forums - mouth to mouth info.

Years of shit talking it down by a select few on this forums alone.

Even if you shut down mmorpg.com down, It is EASILY possible to know what a game MO exactly is.

Anyone who jumps games without ANY sort of  product pre-investigation for which he/she is about to spend money on is simply dumb and deserves to be taken his money away, moreso has no base for complaining.

And yet that's exactly what many gamers do. In afct it's not a porblem with just MO. It's a pretty wide problem actualy.

p.s. Basing all your knowledge of a game just out of mmorpg.com is also one of the dumbest things a gamer can do when it comes to researching about a game. Mostly because forums are full of emotional driven narrow minded people who spend times on forums mostly out of boredom and are not realy trying to help anyone but themself.

Originally posted by SHOE788

Originally posted by CroniteLore

Originally posted by StarI

Originally posted by Uhwop

It's almost like the game is developed by a small indipendant studio, go figure.

People should quit arguing, repeated negative posting on the forums can be reported.  There's nothing to be gained from the same individuals repeatedly posting the same thing over and over.  This is the exact same thing that gets posted after every single magor and minor patch that SV puts out; there's really no reason to keep making them. 

It's an obscene rational, in which some individuals think that they can one day point back and say "I told you so". 

It's interesting that MO is still up and running under a subscription model, while big budget developers like Bioware convert their first attempt into a free to play MMO. 

People are constantly lamenting how every MMO comes out looking just like the one that came out prior to it, and then you get a company like SV, with very few hands, and a fraction of the budget of mainstream studios, and a bunch of people want to jump on their every mistake as if they have the experience in building a game and should know better.

MO was never intended to be a mainstream MMO, it was never inteded to draw in masses of people; yet people behaive as if it's a regular studio with all the resources needed to make mainstram game that's supposed to appeal to a majority of gamers.

I come here to see what's going on with MO, instead most of what I find is thread after thread from the same few people posting the exact same thing over and over.  It's old, tiresome, and rather pathetic when you see it's the same people that have been doing it sinse MO began two years ago.  What kind of a person rages over a stupid video game for that length of time? 

+1

This one's even better.

Renaming my bracket to "pathetic people are pathetic."

It's not funny I'm fucking sick of it too - they hold SV to a standard that few if any of the bigger houses could compete with either.  This site is supposed to be for the SUPPORT OF MMO's NOT TRYING TO KILL THEM.  I mean FFS - it's like a fucking bloodsport on this board.

Eventually SV/MO will close down (I hope in many, many, many years) there will be an idiot on this board at that time saying "I told you so".  Your collective predictions of DOOM since Day 1 of launch TWO frickin YEARS ago - have not come true.

can we just suck up some of the bile for sake of one of the few remianing interesting titles out there that isn't cookie cutter shit.

Remeber D3?  How long did that last until the economy was completely fucked?  A couple of weeks?

You all seen what's just happened to GW2?

But oooh noes for some reason SV is a streaming pile. Well go fookin play GW2 or D3 and stop pissing here.

 

 

MO would be gone by now if it wasnt for Henrik's Dad pumping money into the company to keep it running. Any real independent studio wouldn't last that long without handouts.

SV has had the time and money to make a decent game but clearly haven't been able to do so (from the subs). The vision wasn't good, it wasnt profitable. The implementation was worse, and is still crippled.

SV has had all the chances in the world to reel people in but have failed to do so. Now the game is starting to age and new titles are being released every few months.

It's time is over despite having never begun.

Yeah, and you know this for a fact right? So your saying they aren´t independent company because they haven´t gone down? How stupid isn´t that? They are 5 people working on it now. 5!!! Yeah, that ain´t independent at all. That´s Blizzard numbers right there!!! They were more before, but had to cut down, cause well, they don´t have the money that you claim they have to keep on going full force. They had to cut down as well. And now they are floating, and doing OK. For being 5 people working on it they have done, and are doing a amazing job with Awakening. They patch more or less every day since the release of Awakening. While it might seem to be the act of a none independent company, cause that must be all the money they are bathing in that makes them get the patches out this fast right? Well no. They rewrote the ENTIRE code of the game for Awakening to make it more in line with todays MMOs. With the 64 bit client now in place, and new GUI etc. Ofc the bugs would make it into live, since it´s so many more testing it then the focus group.

And they haven´t had "all the time in the world to reel people in". The game was released to early due to them being low on all that cash that you say they got from his dad. And really, who cares if his dad helps his son out? I would have done the same for my kid if I had the money and my kid was burning for something like Henrik is. Good for em. Why on earth would that be a bad thing? You think it´s over. You guys have thought it would end since release. But guess what? It´s still here, and they will continue to disapoint you for yet another year, and years to come. You say other games gets released now etc. Well yeah, plenty of themepark crap is being released. But if you want a modern fantasy sandbox, with nice graphics etc. There really aren´t much out there. So MO will continue to draw a selective few to it. Some will leave, some will stay. It´s as simple as that. But MO will be here to your agony for years to come. But be happy. You can come here and keep on writing on how much MO sux, and that Henriks dad does this and that. So it´s a win-win for all of us!!! YAY!!!

Originally posted by Lahuzer(...) You think it´s over. You guys have thought it would end since release. (...)

They have been repeating that ever since release, and because they have problems with admitting when they are wrong, they come up with unlimited resources Henrik dad has. I guess it's good they have that, otherwise it would probably be Aliens.

Originally posted by Lahuzer

 

Yeah, and you know this for a fact right? So your saying they aren´t independent company because they haven´t gone down? How stupid isn´t that? They are 5 people working on it now. 5!!! Yeah, that ain´t independent at all. That´s Blizzard numbers right there!!! 

Newsflash: term indie does not reflect the numbers of a company, but the simple fact if they are backed by a publisher or not and who owns the IP. Just fyi, as you used numbers as argument.

Originally posted by realnaste

Originally posted by Lahuzer(...) You think it´s over. You guys have thought it would end since release. (...)

They have been repeating that ever since release, and because they have problems with admitting when they are wrong, they come up with unlimited resources Henrik dad has. I guess it's good they have that, otherwise it would probably be Aliens.

You tell me how a company that constantly loses money in every financial report stays afloat. At this point even aliens seems more logical than subscribers. 

Originally posted by StarI

 

p.s. Basing all your knowledge of a game just out of mmorpg.com is also one of the dumbest things a gamer can do when it comes to researching about a game. Mostly because forums are full of emotional driven narrow minded people who spend times on forums mostly out of boredom and are not realy trying to help anyone but themself.

Originally posted by Toferio

Originally posted by Lahuzer

 

Yeah, and you know this for a fact right? So your saying they aren´t independent company because they haven´t gone down? How stupid isn´t that? They are 5 people working on it now. 5!!! Yeah, that ain´t independent at all. That´s Blizzard numbers right there!!! 

Newsflash: term indie does not reflect the numbers of a company, but the simple fact if they are backed by a publisher or not and who owns the IP. Just fyi, as you used numbers as argument.

Starvault is a indiependant company because they aren´t owned or controlled by a company. But it was "you guys" that said that they weren´t a indie company cause they would be buried now if they were, and because Henriks dad supported his sons dreams for a MMO with some cash. The numbers I threw in there cause that factors in as well. Had they been controlled by a bigger company, like for instance Blizzard, they would have had alot more people working for them. Now they ARE a very small indie company that keeps floating in hopes for their dream MMO to come through. They aren´t there yet, but when Awakening have been implemented well, it´s a huge step forward for them. And with the code rewritten, future updates won´t take as long as it did with Awakening. So it looks brighter now for SV then ever.

Originally posted by SHOE788

Originally posted by CroniteLore

Originally posted by StarI

Originally posted by Uhwop

It's almost like the game is developed by a small indipendant studio, go figure.

People should quit arguing, repeated negative posting on the forums can be reported.  There's nothing to be gained from the same individuals repeatedly posting the same thing over and over.  This is the exact same thing that gets posted after every single magor and minor patch that SV puts out; there's really no reason to keep making them. 

It's an obscene rational, in which some individuals think that they can one day point back and say "I told you so". 

It's interesting that MO is still up and running under a subscription model, while big budget developers like Bioware convert their first attempt into a free to play MMO. 

People are constantly lamenting how every MMO comes out looking just like the one that came out prior to it, and then you get a company like SV, with very few hands, and a fraction of the budget of mainstream studios, and a bunch of people want to jump on their every mistake as if they have the experience in building a game and should know better.

MO was never intended to be a mainstream MMO, it was never inteded to draw in masses of people; yet people behaive as if it's a regular studio with all the resources needed to make mainstram game that's supposed to appeal to a majority of gamers.

I come here to see what's going on with MO, instead most of what I find is thread after thread from the same few people posting the exact same thing over and over.  It's old, tiresome, and rather pathetic when you see it's the same people that have been doing it sinse MO began two years ago.  What kind of a person rages over a stupid video game for that length of time? 

+1

This one's even better.

Renaming my bracket to "pathetic people are pathetic."

It's not funny I'm fucking sick of it too - they hold SV to a standard that few if any of the bigger houses could compete with either.  This site is supposed to be for the SUPPORT OF MMO's NOT TRYING TO KILL THEM.  I mean FFS - it's like a fucking bloodsport on this board.

Eventually SV/MO will close down (I hope in many, many, many years) there will be an idiot on this board at that time saying "I told you so".  Your collective predictions of DOOM since Day 1 of launch TWO frickin YEARS ago - have not come true.

can we just suck up some of the bile for sake of one of the few remianing interesting titles out there that isn't cookie cutter shit.

Remeber D3?  How long did that last until the economy was completely fucked?  A couple of weeks?

You all seen what's just happened to GW2?

But oooh noes for some reason SV is a streaming pile. Well go fookin play GW2 or D3 and stop pissing here.

 

 

MO would be gone by now if it wasnt for Henrik's Dad pumping money into the company to keep it running. Any real independent studio wouldn't last that long without handouts.

SV has had the time and money to make a decent game but clearly haven't been able to do so (from the subs). The vision wasn't good, it wasnt profitable. The implementation was worse, and is still crippled.

SV has had all the chances in the world to reel people in but have failed to do so. Now the game is starting to age and new titles are being released every few months.

It's time is over despite having never begun.

Dad envy?

I don't understand the obsesison on these boards with Henrik's Dad... SO friggin what if he helps - although I'm told it's BS and has been repudiated by SV on these boards who gives a shit. I've run a business in the past and whilst it turned out ok at one point I had to ask my family for help - it's what they're for, no? 

The fact that this is bandied about so much here is well.. really pathetic. And very telling too...

Originally posted by CroniteLore

Originally posted by SHOE788

Originally posted by CroniteLore

Originally posted by StarI

Originally posted by Uhwop

It's almost like the game is developed by a small indipendant studio, go figure.

People should quit arguing, repeated negative posting on the forums can be reported.  There's nothing to be gained from the same individuals repeatedly posting the same thing over and over.  This is the exact same thing that gets posted after every single magor and minor patch that SV puts out; there's really no reason to keep making them. 

It's an obscene rational, in which some individuals think that they can one day point back and say "I told you so". 

It's interesting that MO is still up and running under a subscription model, while big budget developers like Bioware convert their first attempt into a free to play MMO. 

People are constantly lamenting how every MMO comes out looking just like the one that came out prior to it, and then you get a company like SV, with very few hands, and a fraction of the budget of mainstream studios, and a bunch of people want to jump on their every mistake as if they have the experience in building a game and should know better.

MO was never intended to be a mainstream MMO, it was never inteded to draw in masses of people; yet people behaive as if it's a regular studio with all the resources needed to make mainstram game that's supposed to appeal to a majority of gamers.

I come here to see what's going on with MO, instead most of what I find is thread after thread from the same few people posting the exact same thing over and over.  It's old, tiresome, and rather pathetic when you see it's the same people that have been doing it sinse MO began two years ago.  What kind of a person rages over a stupid video game for that length of time? 

+1

This one's even better.

Renaming my bracket to "pathetic people are pathetic."

It's not funny I'm fucking sick of it too - they hold SV to a standard that few if any of the bigger houses could compete with either.  This site is supposed to be for the SUPPORT OF MMO's NOT TRYING TO KILL THEM.  I mean FFS - it's like a fucking bloodsport on this board.

Eventually SV/MO will close down (I hope in many, many, many years) there will be an idiot on this board at that time saying "I told you so".  Your collective predictions of DOOM since Day 1 of launch TWO frickin YEARS ago - have not come true.

can we just suck up some of the bile for sake of one of the few remianing interesting titles out there that isn't cookie cutter shit.

Remeber D3?  How long did that last until the economy was completely fucked?  A couple of weeks?

You all seen what's just happened to GW2?

But oooh noes for some reason SV is a streaming pile. Well go fookin play GW2 or D3 and stop pissing here.

 

 

MO would be gone by now if it wasnt for Henrik's Dad pumping money into the company to keep it running. Any real independent studio wouldn't last that long without handouts.

SV has had the time and money to make a decent game but clearly haven't been able to do so (from the subs). The vision wasn't good, it wasnt profitable. The implementation was worse, and is still crippled.

SV has had all the chances in the world to reel people in but have failed to do so. Now the game is starting to age and new titles are being released every few months.

It's time is over despite having never begun.

Dad envy?

I don't understand the obsesison on these boards with Henrik's Dad... SO friggin what if he helps - although I'm told it's BS and has been repudiated by SV on these boards who gives a shit. I've run a business in the past and whilst it turned out ok at one point I had to ask my family for help - it's what they're for, no? 

The fact that this is bandied about so much here is well.. really pathetic. And very telling too...

 

Well we all know that Ulf Nystrom is the one funding SV...And unless Henrik has the ability to crap money, then how else would they keep going considering huge losses every single month since they released and considering the size of the company?

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

-Again, all you fangirls are capable of is personal attacks. You seem to be unable to discuss the game itself and constantly derail and attack poster(s)

You scream of personal insults, yet this is your second post in a row starting with "fangirls" which in it self is a way to brand those that enjoy the game as some strange group of blinded by love groupies, and thus a try to make our opinions seem somehow less valid and objective.
 And what's up with sexism? We all know that most playing MO are male, so branding us after females must point to some kind of emotional problem with oposite sex or something, since obviously you are trying to get an emotional response from us. You need to get that checked m8.

Originally posted by CroniteLore

 

Remeber D3?  How long did that last until the economy was completely fucked?  A couple of weeks?

You all seen what's just happened to GW2?

D3's economy is alright, in contrast to non existant economy in MO, one of the not working features. I am however curious what just happend to GW2? Last time I checked people were pretty happy with it.

Originally posted by realnaste

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

-Again, all you fangirls are capable of is personal attacks. You seem to be unable to discuss the game itself and constantly derail and attack poster(s)

You scream of personal insults, yet this is your second post in a row starting with "fangirls" which in it self is a way to brand those that enjoy the game as some strange group of blinded by love groupies, and thus a try to make our opinions seem somehow less valid and objective.
 And what's up with sexism? We all know that most playing MO are male, so branding us after females must point to some kind of emotional problem with oposite sex or something, since obviously you are trying to get an emotional response from us. You need to get that checked m8.

First off, Realnaste this wasnt an attack at you- You (from my memory) are someone who discusses and avoids personal attacks.

Read my post history if you wish and you will see that I generally avoid any sort of mudslinging but the last couple days has been ridiculous with attacks coming at posters while avoiding the topics we arfe trying to discuss. Many deleted threads. Hell, I got my first "speeding ticket" (i.e. WARNING) while responding to one of the attacks with an attack in kind.

-So yeah, its getting ridiculous that we cant discuss anything with MO bots coming here and ignoring the discussion but attacking us and questioning our motives. As I said, I would be glad to discuss WHY I (and others) have such a poor opinion of SV on a THREAD dedicated to that discussion. These derailment tactics seem to be the only way to defend this game.

But again, my "attacks" were not inclusive to everyone playing MO nor defending it- Rather its for those who continue to ignore every topic and resort to personal insults- Anyone discussing the game (good or ill) is contributing IMHO- And from memory you have refrained from dumb attacks. EDIT: I include people like Rohn and Deathshroud (and others) as well. Anyone who discusses things rather than attacks and derails every thread while avoiding the discussion at hand. I am sorry (really) I came across to sound inclusive of everyone defending or supporting the game-